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Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

Here is the new tactica thread for 8th edition. Let me start with a stratagem. You can use upon wings of fire to remove your JP unit from CC and set it up 9" away from the unit you fought, or whereever you want. In the charge phase you can charge again, because you didnt fallback.
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine






That's actually really awesome, and quite powerful for a big unit of DC.

I'm wandering what our best anti-tank choices are. Would it be best to go with a stormraven, a pair of predators or some Inceptors with the plasma cannon things?
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Likely Predators or Devastators. Stormraven is more points in one basket, Inceptors for anti-tank overcharging is just suicide.

Does Baal Pred seriously not get access to “Killshot”? I have read that and it doesn’t state the Predator keyword in the stratagem if memory serves. Hopefully an FAQ will solve that. Also would love to know why our predator is more expensive. As it stands Baal Preds won’t be common sights.
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut




My differents findings,

Sergeant scout can dualwield with 2 inferno pistols.

Assault marine can go 2 plasma/melta.

Gabriel Seth is juicy and cheap

Encarmine axes is way too expensive.

Blood talons seem expensive and useless.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 16:11:32


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




How are Blood talons useless? With red thirst you’re wounding on 2+ in the first round of combat, the -2 AP isn’t that bad compared to a fist. I have 4 BA dreads to build and I’m not sure what the mix will be but I think DC dreads with talons and a grapple can really put the hurt on vehicles. Furioso with fists seem more suited to prolonged assaults, but I really wish Furioso was T8.

Frag cannon seems like the dread weapon that’s been rendered useless thanks to price hike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 17:22:41


 
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut




Vs 3+ the -2 ap hurt alot compared to the fist.Considering their advantage is only to rerolls 1s. And upay extra bucks. I'm completely sure it's not worth it.

Basic math, hits are the same so let's say 4.

4 rolls to wound on 2+ for fist then 6+ save. Around 8,3 w

4 rools to wound on 2+ rerolled then 5+ save. Around 7,9 w

It's only if the fight continues that it start getting better but still.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 17:36:56


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






HATE Club, East London

I'm tempted by 4 Heavy Flamers in a Devastator Squad. Especially with Malakim Phoros from FW nearby. Or a lieutenant would do, I suppose

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 17:38:43


Though my guards may sleep and my ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire. 
   
Made in us
Horrific Howling Banshee




USA

What's the ideal loadout for a 5 man squad of DC with jump packs? I was thinking of two power swords, two power axes, and a thunderhammer. This allows for a nice spread of targets as they could charge more than just infantry and do some effective damage.

Also, is there any real advantage to pistols over bolters? In my experience, nothing stays stuck in combat unless it is a dedicated close combat squad, in which case one squad will probably be dead after two rounds of fighting, so you'll most likely never get to use those pistols while locked in combat.

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Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut




mokoshkana wrote:
What's the ideal loadout for a 5 man squad of DC with jump packs? I was thinking of two power swords, two power axes, and a thunderhammer. This allows for a nice spread of targets as they could charge more than just infantry and do some effective damage.

Also, is there any real advantage to pistols over bolters? In my experience, nothing stays stuck in combat unless it is a dedicated close combat squad, in which case one squad will probably be dead after two rounds of fighting, so you'll most likely never get to use those pistols while locked in combat.


Pretty good, i'm not sure about axes anymore tho, i feel like sword or hammer is the way to go. Also 1 chainsword is nice to eat the overwatch, think about it. For the shooting, boltgun or dedicated pistols are the way to go imho. Or extra chainsword with a power weapon for that 1 normal attack.
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

Bremon wrote:
Likely Predators or Devastators. Stormraven is more points in one basket, Inceptors for anti-tank overcharging is just suicide.

Does Baal Pred seriously not get access to “Killshot”? I have read that and it doesn’t state the Predator keyword in the stratagem if memory serves. Hopefully an FAQ will solve that. Also would love to know why our predator is more expensive. As it stands Baal Preds won’t be common sights.
Baal Predators have the Predator Keyword, correct? They did in the Index. So if they do, they will be able to use Killshot.

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Made in ch
Regular Dakkanaut




mokoshkana wrote:
What's the ideal loadout for a 5 man squad of DC with jump packs? I was thinking of two power swords, two power axes, and a thunderhammer. This allows for a nice spread of targets as they could charge more than just infantry and do some effective damage.

Also, is there any real advantage to pistols over bolters? In my experience, nothing stays stuck in combat unless it is a dedicated close combat squad, in which case one squad will probably be dead after two rounds of fighting, so you'll most likely never get to use those pistols while locked in combat.


I actually use 3 chainswords, 1 power sword and a thunderhammer. 4 attacks on the charge and the red thirst procs seems quite good to force enough wrong saves even though it s AP0
   
Made in us
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Isle of Man, United Kingdom

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Bremon wrote:
Likely Predators or Devastators. Stormraven is more points in one basket, Inceptors for anti-tank overcharging is just suicide.

Does Baal Pred seriously not get access to “Killshot”? I have read that and it doesn’t state the Predator keyword in the stratagem if memory serves. Hopefully an FAQ will solve that. Also would love to know why our predator is more expensive. As it stands Baal Preds won’t be common sights.
Baal Predators have the Predator Keyword, correct? They did in the Index. So if they do, they will be able to use Killshot.


The killshot stratagem calls out the Predator unit name not the PREDATOR keyword so unless it gets FAQ'd Baal Predators can't use it.

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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Bremon wrote:
How are Blood talons useless? With red thirst you’re wounding on 2+ in the first round of combat, the -2 AP isn’t that bad compared to a fist. I have 4 BA dreads to build and I’m not sure what the mix will be but I think DC dreads with talons and a grapple can really put the hurt on vehicles. Furioso with fists seem more suited to prolonged assaults, but I really wish Furioso was T8.

Frag cannon seems like the dread weapon that’s been rendered useless thanks to price hike.


Not really. I think its still pretty solid. If not, i'm sure it will be adjusted.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




^I don’t think it was all that solid in the index, it certainly isn’t solid for twice the points.

PandatheWarrior wrote:
Vs 3+ the -2 ap hurt alot compared to the fist.Considering their advantage is only to rerolls 1s. And upay extra bucks. I'm completely sure it's not worth it.

Basic math, hits are the same so let's say 4.

4 rolls to wound on 2+ for fist then 6+ save. Around 8,3 w

4 rools to wound on 2+ rerolled then 5+ save. Around 7,9 w

It's only if the fight continues that it start getting better but still.

Hadn’t done the math; I agree with you. Fists seem superior. Talons only win out in situations where an invulnerable save negates part of the -3AP of the fist.


To stay on the topic of dreads; outside of frag cannon fanboys is there ever a case to made to not spend the 10 points to upgrade a Furioso to DC? Black Rage and twice the consolidation distance seem worth it.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





UK

I think multiple charges are definitely the vital ingredient of an angels of death list. If one unit charges, the enemy will withdraw and the rest of the army will blow them away. Now let's say you get 4 units into CC and you have just tied up a bit chunk of his army. If he withdraws them all, his firepower in the next turn will be seriously compromised and he will struggle to put them down before they charge again (more Red Thirst bonuses). Put all the charging units on one flank and it will be even harder for their mates on the opposite flank to help.

Why 4 units? Because I think that is the best you can reliably manage on Turn 1. You will need 2 units of DC with Jump Packs, one in Reserve to drop and assault with DoA and one to jump up the Table using Forlorn Fury. Add Lemartes for rerolls. Add a Libby with Quickening and Angels Wing relic in Reserve too and you have character who only needs to roll 6+ for their charge and has a built-in reroll and immunity to Overwatch. Lastly either Mephiston or a Libby Dread with Wings of Sanguinius. Moving 19" or 20" should make it easy for them to make a charge too (Mephy can ride in a pod with some suitable back-up if you wish).

That should come to under 800 points (depending on your exact loadout) but is one heck of a punch. Odds are that at least 3 out of 4 units should make the charge and you have plenty of points left for fire support and a second wave.

If your opponent has not bubble-wrapped, you can drop T1 and start killing stuff. If your opponent has bubble wrapped, that is where your fire support comes in. You need firepower to clear the chaff and create a landing zone for your droppers to come on T2 so they can hit the good stuff. I like mobile firepower so flyers and the newly discounted Inceptors look promising to me but even Tac squads in Razorbacks can probably do a fair job. Thre trick is to put pressure on one part of the enemy's line and then roll him up from there rather than attacking across a broad front.

The important thing is timing. Yes we can assault on T1 but it it is not always going to be most advantageous to do so. Blood Angels are definitely looking like a finesse army to me so picking the right moment and place to strike will be vital.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut




 Karhedron wrote:
I think multiple charges are definitely the vital ingredient of an angels of death list. If one unit charges, the enemy will withdraw and the rest of the army will blow them away. Now let's say you get 4 units into CC and you have just tied up a bit chunk of his army. If he withdraws them all, his firepower in the next turn will be seriously compromised and he will struggle to put them down before they charge again (more Red Thirst bonuses). Put all the charging units on one flank and it will be even harder for their mates on the opposite flank to help.

Why 4 units? Because I think that is the best you can reliably manage on Turn 1. You will need 2 units of DC with Jump Packs, one in Reserve to drop and assault with DoA and one to jump up the Table using Forlorn Fury. Add Lemartes for rerolls. Add a Libby with Quickening and Angels Wing relic in Reserve too and you have character who only needs to roll 6+ for their charge and has a built-in reroll and immunity to Overwatch. Lastly either Mephiston or a Libby Dread with Wings of Sanguinius. Moving 19" or 20" should make it easy for them to make a charge too (Mephy can ride in a pod with some suitable back-up if you wish).

That should come to under 800 points (depending on your exact loadout) but is one heck of a punch. Odds are that at least 3 out of 4 units should make the charge and you have plenty of points left for fire support and a second wave.

If your opponent has not bubble-wrapped, you can drop T1 and start killing stuff. If your opponent has bubble wrapped, that is where your fire support comes in. You need firepower to clear the chaff and create a landing zone for your droppers to come on T2 so they can hit the good stuff. I like mobile firepower so flyers and the newly discounted Inceptors look promising to me but even Tac squads in Razorbacks can probably do a fair job. Thre trick is to put pressure on one part of the enemy's line and then roll him up from there rather than attacking across a broad front.

The important thing is timing. Yes we can assault on T1 but it it is not always going to be most advantageous to do so. Blood Angels are definitely looking like a finesse army to me so picking the right moment and place to strike will be vital.


Definitely a step in the right way. I'm however tempted by a captain instead of libby for the angels wings. You get invu, DC cp and access to dmg 4 TH wich is nothing to sniff at.

Now, the good thing we have to ask ourselves is what we bring on the side, and i think razor tac is probably not the answer.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 23:47:27


 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





If you use heavy bolter devastators instead of razorbacks you can pretty easily make an entire army of infantry. Make the enemy's anti-tank a total waste.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






HATE Club, East London

Is anyone else affected by the rather frustrating rule that successor chapters only get to take one utterly useless relic? And that they can't take the Sanguinor or Astorath despite the fact their fluff has them operating with all successor chapters?

Though my guards may sleep and my ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire. 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Naga





Huntsville, Texas

 Fifty wrote:
Is anyone else affected by the rather frustrating rule that successor chapters only get to take one utterly useless relic? And that they can't take the Sanguinor or Astorath despite the fact their fluff has them operating with all successor chapters?


Yeah. I am pretty angry about that, oh well. I have stripped the guys I painted in Knights of Blood colors to repaint then all as Blood Angels. At least I have access to Mephiston now. I learned in today's game that he is a savage monster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I noticed is that unless you skew your list to straight close combat, we cannot neglect our ranged options. Missile Devs and Twin Las Dreads carried the team by knocking out the heavy threats, and allowed the Vanguard Vets to charge into the meat of the enemy.

I expect my assault elements to die a horrid death, so my Vanguard Vets are kept as cheap as possible. It worked out, they made their points back before being blasted to oblivion by a Tau army. However, they kept fire off the rest of my army as they pushed forwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote:
Here is the new tactica thread for 8th edition. Let me start with a stratagem. You can use upon wings of fire to remove your JP unit from CC and set it up 9" away from the unit you fought, or whereever you want. In the charge phase you can charge again, because you didnt fallback.


And the best part is you can use the 3D6 charge range Strategem (again) since they were set up. It becomes very good if your bouncing around a single Jump Pack unit to maximize their use.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/10 01:35:44


 
   
Made in au
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator





Do successor chapters get specifically different chapter tactics, or any discernible benefit?

If not, just run them as regular blood angels. If you want to paint your mephiston with some more silver, I know I won't crucify you, neither will the vast majority of my gaming group. Balance and gameplay wise, if it's a blood angels list painted as successors, that's the same as a blood angels list.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Exactly. Unless you’re taking Seth, there’s no reason to not play “alternate paint job BA”.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Naga





Huntsville, Texas

 Puganaut wrote:
Do successor chapters get specifically different chapter tactics, or any discernible benefit?

If not, just run them as regular blood angels. If you want to paint your mephiston with some more silver, I know I won't crucify you, neither will the vast majority of my gaming group. Balance and gameplay wise, if it's a blood angels list painted as successors, that's the same as a blood angels list.


Yeah, just wasn't worth it to me. I know that my local group wouldn't care, just didn't want the hassle when it comes to local tournaments. Better off just going proper Blood Angels.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




To get as many CP as I can for use with my assault elements, I'm thinking of running either 3 5 man intercessor squads with the stalker bolt guns, or a mixture of them and scouts. Maybe 2 squads of intercessors and 1 squad of scouts with camo cloaks and sniper rifles.

For anti tank, it's either got to be 3 storm talons, or 3 preds, either AC/LC or tri-las. not sure yet. Actually 3 Xiphons would really be the best option with 2 twin las cannons and the missiles. They can take down just about any vehicle in 1 turn with 12 las cannon shots.

My thoughts on axes vs swords. I'm thinking swords if you got a priest nearby, axes if you don't, that way your always wounding T4 on 2's, and don't go hog wild. i'm thinking a TH and a couple power weapons for each squad should be sufficient. Weight of attacks, wounding on 3+ alone should do the trick most of the time in a 10 man squad of DC.


Also, I %100 agree with Karhedron. For BA assault forces to be successful, we need to be getting into CC with 3-5 units in a turn. This is easily doable with some of our new psychic powers and strategems, but requires a decent amount of CPs, so maybe starting with a battalion is the way to go. get 3 cheap troops to hold backfield objectives and the rest assault forces and anti vehicle forces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 06:57:31


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





 Arachnofiend wrote:
If you use heavy bolter devastators instead of razorbacks you can pretty easily make an entire army of infantry. Make the enemy's anti-tank a total waste.


I think that's is exactly how to run BA.

30 DC. 3 or more groups of AM with double plasma. 3 Scout squads. And 3 Dev's with 2 lascannons each.
   
Made in au
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine





I'm thinking of starting with a Battalion myself, having a a Terminator Captain and a Primaris Lieutenant, with two five man Intercessor Squads and a ten man Tactical Squad. From there add a Sanguinary Priest and ALL of the Elites choices I can get through a Vanguard. Captain would deepstrike with the Elites (Terminators, Sang Guard, Death Company) while the Lieutenant leads the Intercessors, and the Priest runs with the Tacticals.

What are people's thoughts on Reivers and Inceptors? Ideally I'd eventually like to run both, dropping them near each other, probably with the Captain.
   
Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

bobafett012 wrote:

For anti tank, it's either got to be 3 storm talons, or 3 preds, either AC/LC or tri-las. not sure yet. Actually 3 Xiphons would really be the best option with 2 twin las cannons and the missiles. They can take down just about any vehicle in 1 turn with 12 las cannon shots.


Keep in mind that flyers cant hold objectives anymore in matched play. Makes it easier for your opponent to table you. I dont think preds are a good idea, they are more expensive than a AC/LC razorback. They are good with killshot but you need 3 of them, and killshot is 1 CP. We need our CPs to get into CC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 07:30:29


 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Got my codex, and was able to play a game with it this afternoon for my local escalation league before I started work at the FLGS (I work there part-time).

750 point match vs. Salmanders.

Some notes:

Death Company dropped in with Lemartes and used the Descent of Angels strategem to charge in on a Razorback. Lost one of the 6 man squad to overwatch fire (Twin assault cannon) but the remaining 5 made it in unscathed along with Lemartes as well. They proceeded to evaporate the Razorback before Lemartes even swung. It was impressive. They consolidated into a nearby whirlwind and Lemartes split off and consolidated into the 6 man tactical squad that came out of the razorback, tying them both up and forcing retreats which helped take some guns out of the fight on his turn.

The Death Company died in the following turn, (though Lemartes Lived) soaking all the fire from his list and allowing more models to move up and keep chewing through his armor. He had a very tank heavy list, so it was a case of cracking hard candy shells to get to the gooey insides.

I managed a narrow victory on the Courier mission from the open war deck, killing the sergeant model he was using as his Courier before he could kill mine. It was a fairly short game, only going to the top of turn four before I finally felled the model I needed to in order to claim victory. Lots of good stuff in this codex. I'm REALLY looking forward to more list building and trying out different tactics with the different strategies. Gotta paint up more Death Company soon.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 08:00:15


You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 tpogs wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
If you use heavy bolter devastators instead of razorbacks you can pretty easily make an entire army of infantry. Make the enemy's anti-tank a total waste.


I think that's is exactly how to run BA.

30 DC. 3 or more groups of AM with double plasma. 3 Scout squads. And 3 Dev's with 2 lascannons each.

This could be a way to go rendering the enemy anti-tank weapons useless.
But I won't run AM units.

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




p5freak wrote:
bobafett012 wrote:

For anti tank, it's either got to be 3 storm talons, or 3 preds, either AC/LC or tri-las. not sure yet. Actually 3 Xiphons would really be the best option with 2 twin las cannons and the missiles. They can take down just about any vehicle in 1 turn with 12 las cannon shots.


Keep in mind that flyers cant hold objectives anymore in matched play. Makes it easier for your opponent to table you. I dont think preds are a good idea, they are more expensive than a AC/LC razorback. They are good with killshot but you need 3 of them, and killshot is 1 CP. We need our CPs to get into CC.


I'm not concerned about flyers not scoring, i'm just debating which will be better in my army. I'm not really interested in razorbacks, because they do not get me any more CPs, 3 preds, or 3 flyers would get me an extra CP and more firepower.

The preds have have a ton more anti vehicle/monster power, which is probably what my build needs the most, but they aren't quite as mobile as the flyers and they still have pretty respectable firepower. I already own the 3 preds, so that's likely what i'll try out first, see how that feels.


EDIT: why are predators 102 points in the BA dex and 90 in the SM codex? that a typo? I thought everything was supposed to be normalized now?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 09:31:14


 
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




 wuestenfux wrote:

This could be a way to go rendering the enemy anti-tank weapons useless.
But I won't run AM units.


I guess he means assault marines rather than astra militarum.
   
 
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