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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I paid a little extra shipping to get my Kingdom Death stuff, and I groused a little bit. In the case of Palladium, my willingness to pay shipping depends in large part on what, exactly, Wave 2 is going to be like.

If Wave 2 is going to match Wave 1, such that everything matches in scale, material and detail (specifically the MAC-II Monster that I paid extra for), then I'd be willing to pay $10-ish to get it.

If Wave 2 is going to be gakky lo-rez, lo-fi PVC, then no fething way. PB should pay for that.


I sincerely doubt that PB would be willing to ship you one of their crappy splatbooks for $10 shipping...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Morgan Vening wrote:
So, I'm curious if any of the people willing to pay shipping for Wave 2 (several who post here), would be willing to do so if it'd essentially be a donation, when others wouldn't.


If PB had the money to produce wave two, but didn't have the money to ship wave two, they could get enough people to pay up to make it happen. Look at the way people happily bend over (and over and over) at the SoB KS. Every time there's another announcement of another delay (but they're producing more stuff you can pay extra for!) the first dozen comments are people begging to give them more money.

Of course, with PB, you'll never get a chicken without an egg, so it doesn't matter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/16 23:52:55


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Stormanu

For the zentraedi the only real build you can do with the core is everything in the core. Rinse repeat with extra stuff to 300 points. 3 Glaug and 3 recon give lots of command points and Ecm abilities the uedf do not have. And always pay for the veteran warriors.

Earth side.....with extras I would do 3 destroid cores (anything with tomahawks). with vf-1 as support units.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Morgan Vening wrote:
I see the RRT Commentary is currently having a small unofficial poll over whether on not people would be willing to re-pay for shipping Wave 2 if it meant getting their stuff. Several have volunteered to, and several have said nopes.

My question is, would those people who are willing to pay be fine paying if others weren't? Because shipping in some cases is going to be excessive, especially international backers, exacerbated if VAT etc is included. And as it is unfair to volunteer not just yourself, but all backers, to require shipping to deliver on the outstanding contract, what you would essentially be doing is donating money to Palladium.

I'm just not sure if those offering to pay for shipping would balk at the idea, if others didn't. I've noticed an intrinsic issue people have with things being fair. One campaign that's late, offered everyone a free reward for being late. Completely free, no extra cost. But the people who pledged the most, got comparatively less (people paying less than $70 got +$40 value, people paying $70+ got +$30 value). And people got angry. Another campaign offered an expansion of the core components of several expansions totaling ~$90 for a flat $50. But some people already paid for some of those as an option, and so those that paid in advance would have paid $90, and those who did this add-on several years later got the same product for $50.

So, I'm curious if any of the people willing to pay shipping for Wave 2 (several who post here), would be willing to do so if it'd essentially be a donation, when others wouldn't.


Ha! We all know how good PB is with Polling.

Also had an idea....

I was thinking about how screwed up blast is with the present incarnation, even with the fixes provided in the FAQ.
What would you think of adding a 2 inch, 3 inch, and 4 inch blast marker to the game?

The area of each would be as follows...
2 Inch = ~12.6 inches^2
3 Inch = ~28.3 inches^2
4 Inch = ~50.3 inches^2
5 Inch = ~75.5 inches^2

If the player decides to shoot multiple blast missiles at the same place to make a larger blast then he can.

For Missiles with a 2 inch blast.
2 Blast Missiles = 3 inch template
3 Blast Missiles = 3 inch template w/damage bonus?
4 Blast Missiles = 4 inch template
5 Blast Missiles = 4 inch template w/damage bonus?
6 Blast Missiles = 5 inch template

Blast does full damage of a single missile to everything under the marker. Do not add the damage from each individual missile to the total.

The centerpoint does double damage and/or becomes inescapable as long as 2 or more missiles are used to create a larger blast area.

The target under the center of the blast can use Anti-Missile normally.

All other units under the blast will be able to use Anti-Missile with a -1 modifier to the roll.

Units that do not have the center of their base under the blast but only an edge cannot use Anti-Missile.

Missiles that roll a 1 on the Strike roll are removed from play and do not roll for scatter.

Phalanx missiles would drop to a 2 inch radius.
Heavy Battlepod missiles would have a 4 or 5 inch radius.
MPA and FPA grenades would have a 4 or 5 inch radius
Heavy Missiles would have a 2 inch radius and be reduced in cost accordingly.

This rule would in effect
1. Reduce the power of the Phalanx
2. Reduce the danger presented by Veritechs with LRMs.
3. Speed up the game as players will more likely combine blast missiles to make a larger effect than try to roll each individually.
4. The changes to how Anti-Missile handles Blast weapons will speed up gameplay.

Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in om
Dakka Veteran




Muscat, Oman

Merijeek wrote:
Look at the way people happily bend over (and over and over) at the SoB KS. Every time there's another announcement of another delay (but they're producing more stuff you can pay extra for!) the first dozen comments are people begging to give them more money.
Which kickstarter are you referring to? Is there a Sister's of Battle kickstarter?

--Lord of the Sentinels Eternal-- 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Mallax Untain






Svalarheima, MA

"Shadows of Brimstone".

I'm still waiting on a substantial amount of stuff, but at last check I'm pretty sure it is all finally here now, and shipping has begun on "Wave 2".

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Soul Samurai wrote:
Merijeek wrote:
Look at the way people happily bend over (and over and over) at the SoB KS. Every time there's another announcement of another delay (but they're producing more stuff you can pay extra for!) the first dozen comments are people begging to give them more money.
Which kickstarter are you referring to? Is there a Sister's of Battle kickstarter?

He's referring to the Shadows of Brimstone Kickstarter. It's been ridiculously delayed, and some of the initial promises were pretty stupid.

The big differences (especially for people like me who are critical of RRT and not SoB) for those that back seem to come down to a few significant points.

First was that Palladium explicitly (and repeatedly) said "Backers first". FFP (Flying Frog Productions, the creators of SoB) did not. So, when items went retail, before backers got theirs, some people lost their minds. Others, were a little irked, but whatever. Note, that with a few minor exceptions (mostly Australians), most backers got their two core sets before they went retail.

Second, the difference in volume is staggering. PB have what, 40 unique models that they have to make? With FFP it's well above 100. And while the bulk are smaller, there are also quite a few much larger (I think Belial is 9" or so tall). Like PB, FFP lost their heads a little during the campaign, and well overpromised.

Which, when combining the two earlier points, FFP have been releasing to retail a selection of models and are gearing up for the final release. Note, that contrary to some claims, this is neither "all" or even "most" of what's coming, at least for MineCart backers. Again, some people are mad about FFP releasing to the public, it's at least showing that progress IS being made. Completely different to what PB have done, where no visible progress has been made. Similarly, while both campaigns have been absolutely horrible about communication, when FFP DO communicate, there's tangible evidence of work having been done. It might not be as fast as some people want, but it's enough that I'm not willing to call PB and FFP equivalent.

And while it's not been publicized, when asked, FFP have been fairly open about offering pro-rata'd refunds for those unhappy to wait. Compared to PB's response to that question. In some cases, this is likely to actually make them money, as in some cases (like mine), they're probably going to lose money on my pledge. This is because like PB, FFP offered fixed shipping. I was charged $40 for my Minecart pledge. The initial box was something like 24" x 15" x 10". That in itself going slowboat freight, would have cost $80+. Shipping out piecemeal is just out of the question.

There have been some other issues that have caused consternation among the backers.
- Because of the overextension on what was promised, FFP limited the amount of overpurchase that people could make during the Pledge Manager. I may be wrong in the details here, but people who didn't back for a Battlecry could only upgrade to a Battlecry. People who backed at Battlecry could upgrade to a Reckless (comparative price, content significantly more diverse) and/or get another Battlecry. People who backed at Reckless could get another Reckless and/or a Battlecry or two. This annoyed some people who backed low, saw that interest post campaign was significant, and wanted to profit off their pledge. People have different opinions on speculators, I don't care. But I also don't have any sympathy if they get screwed because they're not putting money in. Putting in a dollar, seeing demand go up, THEN wanting to paying a heavily discounted price and being denied? Meh. My heart bleeds.
- Some backers wanted to not wait until everything was bundled to backers. So they offered to pay FFP actual shipping, to get what became known as Wave 1.5. FFP made this offer open to all backers, at an IMO not unreasonable price. Some backers saw this as extortion.
- During development, FFP decided to expand the contents of some of the products that will eventually go to retail. Backers were offered the opportunity to either get this new content, at Kickstarter equivalent prices to get the expanded retail content, OR they could get exactly what was promised during the campaign, at no additional cost. Again, some backers saw this as extortion.
- Some people were unhappy that while not explicitly mentioned, the models came in multi-part. So some assembly was required. Nothing close to as egregious as the RRT models, most being 3-4 pieces including base. Some were single, but I think the most complex were 8-9 and they were bigger models.
- Some people are unhappy that some material won't come with retail packaging. All game components will be included, just not the box. This has irked some.

Now, FFP have made some missteps. And some even bigger miscalculations. But they do seem to be committed to completing the project to which people backed, and for the cost that people initially paid (assuming that person didn't want it earlier, or expanded, there's been no additional cost). I'll admit I'm more than a little biased. Of the 80+ projects I've backed, none have come close to the playtime or even to the value for money, that SoB has. I've easily played 50+ games, and that's just with the two initial boxes, putting playing time at well over 100 hours on the tabletop.

What the critics haven't done yet, is give a solution. They complain about the circumstances, but seem unable to give an answer that would allow FFP to remain financially viable enough to complete their promise to backers.
Either...
FFP refuse to release product to the market, meaning like RRT, the game dies while waiting for expansion materials.
FFP send it out to backers as it goes retail, at their cost. Given shipping costs that's a complete non-starter. They'd be bankrupt before they got it half done.
FFP send it out to backers, at backers cost. They tried this, and some took them up on it, some didn't, and some screamed blue murder.
FFP send it out to backers when it's completed. What other options do they have?

I can understand people being upset with FFP's inability to deliver in a timely manner. But they're just not the same. While both FFP and PB overpromised, and as of yet are still to complete, and while both are crap at communicating, and while neither has been a great Kickstarter experience, I think anyone who draws them as equivalent is being disingenuous. Both are (arguably) bad. PB is much worse.

EDIT: DAMMIT! Ninja'd by Alpharius! Knew I should have been brief.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/17 12:54:34


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Merijeek wrote:


I sincerely doubt that PB would be willing to ship you one of their crappy splatbooks for $10 shipping...


Even 25 years ago, Palladium Books charged $5 shipping for single books shoved in a plain, unpadded manilla envelope and sent media mail.
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






I really wonder how much longer they can go.. Gen Con is just around the corner and the end of the year will creep up on us before we know it.

What real evidence have we been given that Palladium is really working on Wave 2? No 3D renders, No real timelines... just a weekly .. "we are working on it"

If you had someone working on your car that kept saying that and you already paid for the service.. After a few months you would have your car towed to
another shop and call a lawyer to sue...

But after reading some of the comments from "mad mike -super fan friend" on the rifts kick-starter, he was very vocal about always talking to lawyers, so I am
sure that is why they keep saying they are "working on it".. because that's what they were advised to keep doing..kick starter legal loophole..

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Alpharius wrote:
"Shadows of Brimstone".

I'm still waiting on a substantial amount of stuff, but at last check I'm pretty sure it is all finally here now, and shipping has begun on "Wave 2".


...but with such fantastic communication, how can you not be sure?
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Mallax Untain






Svalarheima, MA

Ha!

No worries, as your synopsis was good and detailed - and reminded me to go check on the Brimstone KS (no, no Minecart backers have reported getting their Wave 2 stuff yet!).

You key point is VERY critical though - while many are still waiting for their WAVE 2 stuff on the Brimstone KS, there is a lot of actual, physical evidence that WAVE 2 stuff there actually was worked on, produced and available!

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Thing is, I doubt there's a whole lot of people claiming that SoB and RRT are "equivalent".

However, I don't think that RRT being a bigger gak show excuses how badly SoB has been run.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/17 15:58:05


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Mallax Untain






Svalarheima, MA

 Genoside07 wrote:

But after reading some of the comments from "mad mike -super fan friend" on the rifts kick-starter, he was very vocal about always talking to lawyers, so I am
sure that is why they keep saying they are "working on it".. because that's what they were advised to keep doing..kick starter legal loophole..


Pretty much!

I don't know how 'true' or 'legal' it is, but it seems as if they continue to 'work on it', they can string this out...forever?

I don't think they'll ever want to actually admit failure, because then they'll be obligated to show where the money went, and it looks like that's something they'll never want to do.

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

Merijeek wrote:
Thing is, I doubt there's a whole lot of people claiming that SoB and RRT are "equivalent".

However, I don't think that RRT being a bigger gak show excuses how badly SoB has been run.


I don't think anyone has said that.

But we are comparing and contrasting them, and Morgan went into detail about how they each stack up.

On a scale of 1 to 10, it's entirely possible to have RRT at a 2 and SoB at a 6. Flawed, imperfect, with substantial issues worth raising, but it's not remotely a binary "both are late and both suck at communication so both are equally bad", and I have seen people compare them directly.

It is possible to say "Y'know, I wish FFP were better on communication and hadn't bitten off so much" while also recognizing RRT is "a dumpster fire" without them both being directly equated.

I will take "late, but eventually delivered" over this running gag. I will take a unfortunately long delivery time frame with a game I enjoy over a non-existent time frame for a game that's 'okay at best' from what I've gathered from most who play it. I've got maybe a dozen models built and gave up on wasting more time on a game I was unlikely to find opponents for in the first place.

Selling off the vast majority of what I received helped blunt some of that impact, because PB isn't giving refunds, whereas anyone who is still 'salty' over SoB should've written FFP for one and quite possibly gotten one ages ago.

It's almost like context and nuance are pertinent to the discussion. :-D

 
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/191201


This should give people a hint of where the property is at..

$9.99 for Zentraedi Regult Battlepods.. MSRP: $36.95

that is at the point were shops are almost giving it away to make shelf space.

I was really hopeful.. wanted to have scale models from the whole series..

Too little .. too late now..

 
   
Made in us
Slicing Orb of Xandros






SoCal, USA!

 Alpharius wrote:
You key point is VERY critical though - while many are still waiting for their WAVE 2 stuff on the Brimstone KS, there is a lot of actual, physical evidence that WAVE 2 stuff there actually was worked on, produced and available!


This was the same thing with KD:M 1.0 - while Updates were few and far between, what Updates we got were epic and substantial, showing undeniable progress toward delivery. That made a big difference, and gave me the confidence to increase my pledge from something very limited to something much more comprehensive.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in sg
Regular Dakkanaut





Snort. I just got an update from another KS and checked some dates. In the time that this RRT gakshow has been going on, plus 20 days, Dwarven Forge has ran and delivered on 3 KS, and is starting delivery on its 4th, with a 5th KS planned for early next month.

What.

The.

Hell.
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

Yup. I remember people arguing about how DF completing 2 in the time it basically took PB to deliver Wave 1 wasn't a big deal or comparable. Because crafting a bunch of (tiny fiddly) minis was an entirely different thing from the pieces of terrain DF was making.

Well now they're doing stuff with magnets and embedded metal plates and LED's and are about to launch KS5 and boy, I think I was proven right on that one.

4 campaigns down and only one has ended up being substantially late (by about 4-5 months or so), compared to... this gakshow.

And that's why, even with delays, I still consider DF to be among the better (if not among the best) companies using Kickstarter.

A compare and contrast effort between two campaigns will always run across similarities and ways they're not at all similar, but in broad strokes they're my go to for "Yeah, large KS campaigns are often late... but not always."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/17 17:54:39


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Mallax Untain






Svalarheima, MA

I've lost track - does PB have anything else that they'll be throwing up as a roadblock to just telling everyone what they've been doing for Wave 2 now?

There's no Rifts Boardgame to worry about.

We've seen the Gencon schedule, such as it is.

Surely they've received all the outstanding quotes they've been waiting for by now, right?

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut






Well, let's see, Kevvy can get sick? Oh wait...

   
Made in us
Expendable Defender Destroid Rookie






For comparison, Cthulhu Wars was kickstarted around the same time, with a similar number of backers and for a similar amount of money. It was also run by a rpg game designer with thirty years in the biz, but no miniature experience. It is just shipping its second kickstarter.

   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

And it's fun, or at least I've enjoyed the games I've played.

Though one faction has an *obnoxious* ability that I'm not entirely sure how to handle without it becoming a group effort (and that person feeling picked on... because they are... because leaving them alone isn't a viable strategy).

 
   
Made in us
Expendable Defender Destroid Rookie






Don't hate on The King...
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

A good reference, but not the one I was thinking of.

I think it's the blue faction? The one with the ability to grab other people's portals and move them?

That one can get messy and out of hand quickly if you don't shut their gak down, or spam as many onto the table as a group as quickly as possible so they have nowhere to go (can't have two on the same spot, as I recall).

It's been ages since we played, so the particulars are fuzzy.

 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut






 Forar wrote:
And it's fun, or at least I've enjoyed the games I've played.

Though one faction has an *obnoxious* ability that I'm not entirely sure how to handle without it becoming a group effort (and that person feeling picked on... because they are... because leaving them alone isn't a viable strategy).


Cthulhu Wars is like that. You can't leave any faction alone, ever.

   
Made in om
Dakka Veteran




Muscat, Oman

 Alpharius wrote:
"Shadows of Brimstone".
Oh, right, I remember that one. I took a look but there were only a couple of models that interested me and I didn't need a new game system so I passed. Hmm, I wonder what the chances are of justing picking up a couple of individual models at some point? Do people sell individual bits of boardgames on ebay or on bits sites?

Also, this Dwarven Forge stuff looks really good. Hmm...

--Lord of the Sentinels Eternal-- 
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

For those who are interested, there's a Dwarven Forge KS5 thread here.

The next campaign launches on June 11th.

Edit: and to loop back around to this campaign, I feel confident saying (even without a delivery target) that DF KS5 will deliver before RRT wave 2 does. I mean, same with KS6, 7, 8, 15, etc.

But we're talking about the short term.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 19:12:17


 
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






PALLADIUM BOOKS® WEEKLY UPDATE – MAY 19, 2017
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and other books

Never forgotten, we are trying to pull some things together that would be pretty epic. More when we have something solid to report. Meanwhile, more of the original Robotech® RPG books from the 1980s and 1990s are being made available as PDF editions on DriveThruRPG.com every week (more or less). And the current Robotech® RPG titles will soon be available as ebooks. We will keep you posted on all fronts.


Nothing like the old Kevin to inspire you to think something is being done to Robotech Tactics.




 
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





Norfolk, NE

Well, technically, a circle jerk is pulling some thing together.



Something is happening on the 24th, we sent you a poster.
 
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT?!

I need bleach, steel wool, and 200 proof alcohol...

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You know the thing I find funny is how PB's idea of advertising is advertising to those who already have the items, they do no outside advertising of any sorts, no promotions, no nothing.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
 
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