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cody.d. wrote:
Not to mention pretty much any vehicle once you shove a mek under their armoured butt.

This is true.
So if you want effective (I.E. BS4) shooting take x3 meks, x3 carefully chosen vehicles, mek gunz, and my beloved Grot Tanks.

ccs wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Not to mention pretty much any vehicle once you shove a mek under their armoured butt.

This is true.
So if you want effective (I.E. BS4) shooting take x3 meks, x3 carefully chosen vehicles, mek gunz, and my beloved Grot Tanks.

I've really come round on Deffkoptas as well. They're faster than a grot tank, trade a point of BS for twin linked, and hit decently hard in melee.

I'd actually say that grot tanks, Deffkoptas and Killa kans are all in the same bracket with some slight variations. Koptas are fast with better chaff clearing melee and twin linked rokkits, rokkit kans are slower but hit a lot harder in melee, and Grot tanks are a middle ground in terms of speed and melee output but have better volume of shots.

We definitely do have some decent shooting options, it's just that things like massed Beast Snagga units, Trukk spam and Nobz are really good, so they get the spotlight.

Keep in mind that kanz also ignore cover, which is rather important on AP-2 guns.

In general, my issue with all three options is that they die too fast for their points. Their defensive profiles are in a place where pretty much every gun in the opponent's arsenal is at least worth shooting at it, and a broad bandwidth is even extremely effective at doing so. It shows on the tabletop, after I caught my opponents off guard with kanz once or twice, I pretty much lose all of them immediately. 24" range is just a bit too close for comfort on such fragile units. When you expose them, they are gone.

I also have to point out that shooting does not have to be BS4+ to be reliable or effective. Given the same number of average hits, a BS5+ unit will always be superior to a BS4+ unit due to the potential to overperform. Superstitions like that have no place in a tactics thread.

cody.d. wrote:
Not to mention pretty much any vehicle once you shove a mek under their armoured butt.

So what are we thinking about the nid stuff? Does the format give us a hopeful look at what the ork dex will have?

It was what gw said it would be. New detachments giving alternative ways to play with barely any changes to datasheets.

External balance won't change much but more ways to play.

And some chance that warscrolls that seems now pointless get fresh breath. Winged prime in index was junk but now that the sustained does something(and isn't just gained by detachment) and in vanquard giving warriors advance&charge it might be interesting.

Any potential candinates for that in orks?

Also possibility of more changes as time between index and codex grows.

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
There might be some minor changes to points on less performing ork units but I don’t see us being touched.. they got bigger issues to deal with eldar, gsc, custodes and knights…and then a half dozen or so underperforming armies… orks biggest buff will be our codex in 2024 which if the tyranid codex is any indication will have 6! Detachments.
My wish (I’m prepared to be disappointed)
Current index pressure list detachment
Dread waaagh/walker
Obligatory beastsnagga detachment
Speedwaagh/speedfreak
Greentide
Bloodaxe/infiltrator

Note detachment count doesn't have to be same per book. First 2 have already different.

Wouldn't surprise if all klans have own themed. Then maybe 1-2 odder one.

I doubt they follow klan theme…
There can also be trukk rush detachment or warbike detachment but those seem to specific to a single unit..
I also don’t expect much more than a character model but hope for tankbustas redone in plastic.

They are very few useless units in our codex, most have points issues, not rules issues.

The bombers come to mind as something that desparate needs an update, and the big meks should have their RR1 ability replaced by something else.

A second pass on buggy weapons would be nice as well, many of them feel undergunned.

There are few characters which are struggling to find a place - MA warboss and painboss come to mind.

Outside of that, I can only think of minor tweaks like upping strength or toughness of certain things.

biggest problem with the mek is that he doesnt confer the +1 to hit to the unit, just a single model.

Also grot mega tanks are kinda bad.

Nids Codex gives me hope for things such as bad moonz shooting focus and dread waagh with walkers etc.

gungo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
There might be some minor changes to points on less performing ork units but I don’t see us being touched.. they got bigger issues to deal with eldar, gsc, custodes and knights…and then a half dozen or so underperforming armies… orks biggest buff will be our codex in 2024 which if the tyranid codex is any indication will have 6! Detachments.
My wish (I’m prepared to be disappointed)
Current index pressure list detachment
Dread waaagh/walker
Obligatory beastsnagga detachment
Speedwaagh/speedfreak
Greentide
Bloodaxe/infiltrator

Note detachment count doesn't have to be same per book. First 2 have already different.

Wouldn't surprise if all klans have own themed. Then maybe 1-2 odder one.

I doubt they follow klan theme…
There can also be trukk rush detachment or warbike detachment but those seem to specific to a single unit..
I also don’t expect much more than a character model but hope for tankbustas redone in plastic.

Marines are following chapter style. White scar, imperial fist, ultramarine, ravenguard, ultramarine, salamander.

Mek not affecting the unit really only means hes not buffing Koptas (he wont keep up with them anyway), Kanz, and Grottanks.
Why would an ork help a grot?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Mek not affecting the unit really only means hes not buffing Koptas (he wont keep up with them anyway), Kanz, and Grottanks.
Why would an ork help a grot?

And more importantly, Mek Gunz

Curious what they could do for a DAKKA Waaagh! type detachment, since in the past they've had issues only buffing one aspect and not the other (usually vehicles, at the exclusion of infantry). I think an easy one would be giving Sustained Hits 1 (Not sure if there would be a caveat for giving units with Sustained Hits 1 already into being Sustained Hits 2 instead, since I think that could make Flash Gitz too good) and/or giving the Assault to ranged weapons. Maybe Ork units have to choose between one or the other by start of the movement phase?

I just want the shooty detachment to actually promote using shoota boyz in some way, I have like 90 of them and I haven't been able to use them as anything else than ablative wounds for so long :(

Unlikely orks would get such special exception especially when there's already detachments providind sustained.

Maybe if orks were later but usually mid-edition paradim shift doesn't start this early

Fingers crossed for army wide Sustained Hits 2 for the Dakkadakka detachment

Hopefully tneva is right and we see more than 6 detachments in the codex, would be nice for each Kulture to get their own.

Ngl I am slightly worried orks aren’t going to get any points reductions for our bad units. GW tends to take more of a if they’re doing well enough in the meta don’t touch them approach with orks. Hopefully I’m wrong though.

POINTS BALANZ? DAT SOUNDS LIKE HUMIE COWARD NONSENSE.

WEZ STOMPIN DA DEATHGUARD JUZ FINE DA WAY FINGS ARE!

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Ngl I am slightly worried orks aren’t going to get any points reductions for our bad units. GW tends to take more of a if they’re doing well enough in the meta don’t touch them approach with orks. Hopefully I’m wrong though.

I would not be surprised if Trukks go up in points, people have been spamming them at turnaments and GW seem to realy hate when orks win with a skew list

That would suck pretty hard, given that they're basically the only transport really worth taking at the moment.

Dekskull wrote:POINTS BALANZ? DAT SOUNDS LIKE HUMIE COWARD NONSENSE.

WEZ STOMPIN DA DEATHGUARD JUZ FINE DA WAY FINGS ARE!

Grimskul wrote:That would suck pretty hard, given that they're basically the only transport really worth taking at the moment.

On the brightside they may lower the price of the Battlewagon to be worthwhile. I've been wanting to try a battlewagon stuffed to the gills with shootaboyz for a while now.

It's worth noting that a good portion of the rule developers with a hateboner for successful orks are not longer in charge of developing 40k rules.

I don't really see any knee-jerks coming as orks aren't really doing anything the aren't supposed to be doing. Literally the only unit which seems to be overperforming is flash gits with Badrukk, but I'm not convinced that they are good enough to show up on GW's radar... yet. Let's see what happens when custodes and eldar are gone to keep us in check.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's worth noting that a good portion of the rule developers with a hateboner for successful orks are not longer in charge of developing 40k rules.

I don't really see any knee-jerks coming as orks aren't really doing anything the aren't supposed to be doing. Literally the only unit which seems to be overperforming is flash gits with Badrukk, but I'm not convinced that they are good enough to show up on GW's radar... yet. Let's see what happens when custodes and eldar are gone to keep us in check.

In my experience Flash Gits just rock up and blow up a unit before being immediately wiped off the board the moment the opponent can retaliate. Which is pretty much the entire Ork work ethic

I don't imagine they'll get touched, but I can maybe see Badrukk getting a slight price increase as he really sets up Gitz to overperform. If we even get touched at all.

Objectively, they aren't too strong because they cost a lot of points, but it's the one unit marine players facing me actually complain about. They really don't like having their battletanks shredded by low strength guns

Wasn't expecting Badrukk to get a points cut

Very pleased Lootas got a smile price cut to boot.

We didn't really get touched in terms of rules, but we did get some points changes.

Codex units:
Beastboss from 80 to 100
Mega Mek from 100 to 85
KFF Mek from 65 to 55
Snikrot from 105 to 85
Zagstruk from 100 to 90
Burna Boys from 65/130/195 to 60/120/180
Deff Dread from 150 to 130
Wartrike from 90 to 80
Koptas from 115/230 to 100/200
Gorkanaut from 295 to 280
Grots from 45/90 to 40/80
Hunta Rig from 180 to 160
Badrukk from 95 to 80!
Kill Rig from 220 to 200
Lootas from 55/110/165 to 50/100/150
Grotsnik from 75 to 65
MANz from 65/100/165/200 to 60/90/150/180
Mek Gunz from 45/90/135 to 55/110/165
Morkanaut from 350 to 330
Smasha Squig from 75 to 60
Nobz from 115/230 to 105/210
Painboss from 70 to 60
Painboy from 80 to 70
Tankbustas from 135 to 110
Trukk from 50 to 60
Bikers from 75/150 to 70/140
Warboss from 70 to 65
Mega Boss from 95 to 80

While some of my units got a price increase, my list overall went down 10 points, so I'm happy with that

Missing out on some MW shenanigans is a bit of a bummer, but we weren't exactly relying on it to clear big groups of enemies, rather for killing high toughness targets. We've made out like bandits all things considered!

As always some changes are complete head scratchers. Gorknaut was already better than Morkanaut. not competitive but still… they jacked up the Morkanaut points and lowered gorkanaut? Essentially Morkanaut is unplayable at this price. (Morkanaut was 305 not 350 on my list)

Already must take units like badrukk had a big price reduction.
Beastboss took a double nerf unsure if he’s competitive but warboss and nobs are better as are Gretchin..

The one meta change I expect w devastating nerf is high toughness units with strong fnp to get significantly better Like mozgrod And beastboss on squig.

I almost want to like meganobs, or warbikers or deffkoptas but I don’t think the points changes will significantly change them.. essentially what I’m saying is orks are in a good place.. I think squigboys lost a step…but stormboys, Gretchin, trukks, beastsnaggas, nobs, warbosses, mozgrod, flashgitz are still great..

So just trukks, mek guns and beastbosses went up, right?

Looks rather decent now. Lootas are cheap as chips, they might actually be a decent option for backfield objectives now.

gungo wrote:
I think squigboys lost a step…

How so? From what I can see they've if anything become more viable now that Smasha Squigs are cheaper. Please correct me if I'm completely blind to what you're trying to explain.


Made some slight changes to my Oops All Squigs list following the dataslate. Fortunately only needed minor tweaks and got rid of the Mek guns that were clashing with the look of the rest of the list. Not meant to be hyper competitive, but a fun themed army built around a solidly competitive core.

List in spoilers for those interested.

Changes:

Trukk, beastboss, mek gunz and big morkanaut up. The rest diwn?

My list barely went 5 points up. I am not seeing nothing worthy of note. We also did not use dev wounds in any other way then to provide a bypass to high saves/invuln. Some things that are interesting.

deffkotptas at 100pts seem good.

Meka-dread went down 20pts is now 210pts

I am not sure the rigs have game, i can do more with 3 trucks? i was wrong before, would love to be again in this case.

ghaz stays in the shelf with the meganobz, and nobz went down just like nob on smasha. A buff to those 2. At this point meganobz need more rules.

buggies stay in the same place and they needed changes.. i am just don't see game with them with current rules. Another one i would kind of want to be wrong?

Anyway take it with a grain of salt. It's opinion. Honestly this slate targets the bottom and higher armies. I am ok with that. But i would love to see other sheet's for variety.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

gungo wrote:
I think squigboys lost a step…

How so? From what I can see they've if anything become more viable now that Smasha Squigs are cheaper. Please correct me if I'm completely blind to what you're trying to explain.


Made some slight changes to my Oops All Squigs list following the dataslate. Fortunately only needed minor tweaks and got rid of the Mek guns that were clashing with the look of the rest of the list. Not meant to be hyper competitive, but a fun themed army built around a solidly competitive core.

List in spoilers for those interested.

Spoiler:

Squigosaur with Killchoppa (Warlord)
Beastboss
Beastboss
Smasha Squig with Follow Me Ladz
Smasha Squig
Smasha Squig
2x10 Snagga Boys
2x11 Gretchin
3x3 Squighogs with Bomb Squigs
2x3 Deffkoptas (Winged Squighogs)
1x10 Flash Gitz with Ammo Runt (Squig pelts instead of back banners)
1x Deff Dread with 2 Skorchas (Giant Robo Squig)
2x Trukks with Wreckin' Balls (Squig chariots)
1x Squiggoth

Squiggoth, Flash Gitz and Deff Dread go in reserve to come in from a flank. Snaggas in Trukks and the Follow Me Squigs are wave 1, followed by the Squigboss and the rest of the Hogs. The Grots are for me to pretend I'm trying to play to any objectives. The koptas either deep strike in or whizz up a flank to harass stuff.

Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, and if you happen to score some points on the way, then that's a moral victory

Mostly just killchoppa may not be auto include on the nob and I think knights, wraithknights and a bunch of other large vehicles took enough of a hit that I don’t think spamming squigriders is needed. I’m not saying they are nerfed directly just lost a step and aren’t the counter meta they were to some lists. You still might want to include a single unit of them but I don’t think we will see the current spam lists like we’ve been seeing with them competitively.

Tomsug wrote:Changes:

Trukk, beastboss, mek gunz and big morkanaut up. The rest diwn?

Mork went down from 350 to 330. But otherwise correct.

Forceride wrote:My list barely went 5 points up. I am not seeing nothing worthy of note. We also did not use dev wounds in any other way then to provide a bypass to high saves/invuln. Some things that are interesting.

deffkotptas at 100pts seem good.

Meka-dread went down 20pts is now 210pts

I am not sure the rigs have game, i can do more with 3 trucks? i was wrong before, would love to be again in this case.

ghaz stays in the shelf with the meganobz, and nobz went down just like nob on smasha. A buff to those 2. At this point meganobz need more rules.

buggies stay in the same place and the needed changes.. i am just don't see game with them with current rules. Another one i would kinda want to be wrong?

I am definitely camp Deffkopta now that they're 100 points for 3. Great interference unit.

I could maybe see use in taking a single Kill Rig if you'd already maxed out on Beastbosses and wanted a pseudo Beastboss/transport combo for a 4th Snagga unit. But otherwise I think they're still not ideal.

I think MANz just need a durability rule or a better damage output rule to become more viable at this point. Maybe a 5++ or an additional attack on the charge or something. I dunno.

Meka-Dread I could see possibly getting some use as a memey 'Naut replacement with twin Killkannons. Healing itself and giving itself +1 to hit while plugging away with 2d6+6 shots at S9 AP-2 D2. Worst case scenario it's cheap and durable enough to draw fire while it pesters things.

gungo wrote:

Mostly just killchoppa may not be auto include on the nob and I think knights, wraithknights and a bunch of other large vehicles took enough of a hit that I don’t think spamming squigriders is needed. I’m not saying they are nerfed directly just lost a step and aren’t the counter meta they were to some lists. You still might want to include a single unit of them but I don’t think we will see the current spam lists like we’ve been seeing with them competitively.

That's a fair assessment. Personally I think hogs+smashas are still some of our better units, but they are obviously meta dependent. They still remain a solid anti-vehicle unit though, which is my main reasoning for taking a lot of them (that and I've been pushing boys and equivalent around for over a decade now, I'm enjoying the change of scenery).