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 triplegrim wrote:
Is it too late to say I'm dissapointed there was no Egrim von Horstman?

Well he is not around in this period - He only joined the Light Order as an apprentice in 2504 IC !!

 Gert wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
If I was being somewhat cynical, I'd suggest that the de-emphasising of the individual gods was done to reduce the scope of relaunching Chaos Warriors, back when TOW had the previously refrenced smaller scope.

The only aligned units pre-End Times were the Skullcrushers and Hellstriders, both of which are mortals mounted on Daemonic steeds and this period has established that Daemons aren't a thing.
So a total of two whole units not available to the faction doesn't seem particularly damning.

Likewise I really dislike the continued pushing in articles that Archaon was always fated to destroy the Old World.

I'm pretty sure Archaon was always fated to bring about the End Times. Actually, no, I'm sure of it because there's a whole prophecy about him, which he reads and then becomes the Everchosen. So you're annoyed that for once GW is actually being consistent with its background. The irony of it all.

Prophesies don’t have to come true, in fact prophesies failing to come true or something happening which is ironic and no one expected but meets the prophesy on a technicality have been tropes in literature for thousands of years. Just because we have background information prophesising Archaon was going to lead the end of the world doesn’t mean that he actually was. Asavar Kul probably had similar prophesies floating around about him and he failed. All sorts of things are said about various Warhammer characters in Army books and novels that we know to be incorrect or propaganda, that kind of muddying of the water is that makes interesting characters and scenarios.

The fact that GW ran campaigns to decide the fate of the Old World shows that from a meta perspective they had never actually decided that Archaon was always going to win. That’s just something they’ve retrospectively added in to make it clear that AOS will happen. Which is kind of an odd decision and I’d have just like the grogs be able to pretend that in their own little pocket section of the GW world, that the End Times could be avoided.

I wonder if taking a less-differentiated approach to Chaos Gods and Daemons will lead to GW having a dual range across HH and TOW in the same way the original concepts pull dual duty across the main systems.

Doubtful - but clever. I for one would support such a move.

Prophesies don’t have to come true, in fact prophesies failing to come true or something happening which is ironic and no one expected but meets the prophesy on a technicality have been tropes in literature for thousands of years. Just because we have background information prophesising Archaon was going to lead the end of the world doesn’t mean that he actually was. Asavar Kul probably had similar prophesies floating around about him and he failed. All sorts of things are said about various Warhammer characters in Army books and novels that we know to be incorrect or propaganda, that kind of muddying of the water is that makes interesting characters and scenarios.

The fact that GW ran campaigns to decide the fate of the Old World shows that from a meta perspective they had never actually decided that Archaon was always going to win. That’s just something they’ve retrospectively added in to make it clear that AOS will happen. Which is kind of an odd decision and I’d have just like the grogs be able to pretend that in their own little pocket section of the GW world, that the End Times could be avoided.

Exaclty.

Look what happened during 6th ed: the Storm of Chaos campaign, where Archaon fails and is defeated by Grimgor. And then they retconned everything anyways, like it never happened.

 Londinium wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
If I was being somewhat cynical, I'd suggest that the de-emphasising of the individual gods was done to reduce the scope of relaunching Chaos Warriors, back when TOW had the previously refrenced smaller scope.

The only aligned units pre-End Times were the Skullcrushers and Hellstriders, both of which are mortals mounted on Daemonic steeds and this period has established that Daemons aren't a thing.
So a total of two whole units not available to the faction doesn't seem particularly damning.

Likewise I really dislike the continued pushing in articles that Archaon was always fated to destroy the Old World.

I'm pretty sure Archaon was always fated to bring about the End Times. Actually, no, I'm sure of it because there's a whole prophecy about him, which he reads and then becomes the Everchosen. So you're annoyed that for once GW is actually being consistent with its background. The irony of it all.

Prophesies don’t have to come true, in fact prophesies failing to come true or something happening which is ironic and no one expected but meets the prophesy on a technicality have been tropes in literature for thousands of years. Just because we have background information prophesising Archaon was going to lead the end of the world doesn’t mean that he actually was. Asavar Kul probably had similar prophesies floating around about him and he failed. All sorts of things are said about various Warhammer characters in Army books and novels that we know to be incorrect or propaganda, that kind of muddying of the water is that makes interesting characters and scenarios.

The fact that GW ran campaigns to decide the fate of the Old World shows that from a meta perspective they had never actually decided that Archaon was always going to win. That’s just something they’ve retrospectively added in to make it clear that AOS will happen. Which is kind of an odd decision and I’d have just like the grogs be able to pretend that in their own little pocket section of the GW world, that the End Times could be avoided.

Indeed and the lore is that there are many many alternatives where Archaeon is never born, dies young, is killed, never turns - and Belakor has to keep tweaking them to get the universe where this happens.

There is a number of quotes in ET and AOS that talk about alt realities - and of course Bloodbowl is another official universe....

So again, Archaon was going to become the Everchosen and plans were enacted to ensure this path would be followed.
Sure sounds like Archaon was fated to become the Everchosen that would destroy the world.


From an Out of Universe perspective I'm sure the grand plan didn't include GW having bad sales for WHFB and having the panic decision to destroy the world but that's what happened.
The Imperium will eventually fall in the 40k universe, the Aeldari will die out, etc but 40k has yet to suffer the failings of WHFB and likely never will so we'll never see that.

I’d argue 40K more enjoyed a strength that Fantasy didn’t.

40K? Is a vast sandbox. You can have a campaign, official or otherwise, shatter a system and the rest of the galaxy will barely notice.

Fantasy? Only the one world. And losing a city or two just doesn’t feel especially apocalyptic.

Warhammer Fantasy worked as a Fantasy game, but 40K worked best as a setting.

on a narrative level, if you have a prophecy that is related to a major character, then the prophecy needs to be relevant. if the prophecy says he's going to destroy the world, then at the very least he's going to try

furthermore, it's a setting with magic, and while i know people really like to downplay the high fantasy elements of the setting, that very much is a factor here. so it's not just that it's a prophecy, but a magical one. even if WHFB didn't end, they were still going to do something with it someday, because that's how narrative setup and payoff works

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
on a narrative level, if you have a prophecy that is related to a major character, then the prophecy needs to be relevant. if the prophecy says he's going to destroy the world, then at the very least he's going to try

furthermore, it's a setting with magic, and while i know people really like to downplay the high fantasy elements of the setting, that very much is a factor here. so it's not just that it's a prophecy, but a magical one. even if WHFB didn't end, they were still going to do something with it someday, because that's how narrative setup and payoff works

Narratives don't have to pay off if they are there as a backdrop though. All that stuff was part of the "5 minutes to midnight" setting, which was the backdrop for your own stories and characters.

Of course, the risk is that GW might not resist developing that narrative and cashing in, which tends to undermine it as a setting hook. Which is what the End Times and the Fall of Cadia narratives were.

Now I'm wondering what the venn diagram of folks who dislike nuKislev but hate TOW chaos being subtle, less overt, less daemonic, less magical, etc. looks like

And yeah, agreed. For all the talk about how much people hate the "the end times were always going to happen" schtick and the apparent newfound insistence that that is a retcon, the old lore was always pretty clear that Archaon as the 13th Everchosen was destined and prophesied to bring ruin or doom or what have you to the world. I don't recall if it ever per se involved the actual destruction of the planet but in retrospect that's a fairly logical conclusion. It certainly didn't mean that he was just going to sack Praag and Altdorf for the umpteenth time and then head home. It didn't mean he was going to fetch up the elves in ukthuan and call it a day. The only way that prophecy works is if every other faction is functionally destroyed as a functioning polity, organization, society, culture, and civilization. In the case the alternative to what GW did would basically be a post apocalyptic mad max esque warhammer setting that probably looks more like necromunda less like whfb proper.

Isn't that pretty much Mordheim, except the entire world?

 Londinium wrote:
-snip-

Prophesies don’t have to come true, in fact prophesies failing to come true or something happening which is ironic and no one expected but meets the prophesy on a technicality have been tropes in literature for thousands of years. Just because we have background information prophesising Archaon was going to lead the end of the world doesn’t mean that he actually was. Asavar Kul probably had similar prophesies floating around about him and he failed. All sorts of things are said about various Warhammer characters in Army books and novels that we know to be incorrect or propaganda, that kind of muddying of the water is that makes interesting characters and scenarios.

The fact that GW ran campaigns to decide the fate of the Old World shows that from a meta perspective they had never actually decided that Archaon was always going to win. That’s just something they’ve retrospectively added in to make it clear that AOS will happen. Which is kind of an odd decision and I’d have just like the grogs be able to pretend that in their own little pocket section of the GW world, that the End Times could be avoided.

Bolded by me.

Anyone can still pretend whatever they want in their own corner of the Warhammer universes.

What has happened?
Can people no longer create their own personal stories without GW bashing down the door and carrying them to prison for it?
There is enough fanfic in the world to prove that isn't true.

 skrulnik wrote:

What has happened?
Can people no longer create their own personal stories without GW bashing down the door and carrying them to prison for it?
There is enough fanfic in the world to prove that isn't true.

well, some of us are around long enough to have lived during that time were GW actually tried to do that, were posting fan-fiction or pictures of painted models on the internet was something they wanted to be gone and and tried legal actions against forums that allowed that

 kodos wrote:

 skrulnik wrote:

What has happened?
Can people no longer create their own personal stories without GW bashing down the door and carrying them to prison for it?
There is enough fanfic in the world to prove that isn't true.

well, some of us are around long enough to have lived during that time were GW actually tried to do that, were posting fan-fiction or pictures of painted models on the internet was something they wanted to be gone and and tried legal actions against forums that allowed that

Simple solution- don't shout about what you are doing all across the internet and wave it in front of GWs face.

Way back before 3d printing was a common household thing, I've seen some really dumb people flaunt things (that shouldn't be spoken about here), which in part helped ruin an underground hobby of 'pipe cleaner models' for Epic 40k (If you know, you know). Like these models once were, these things just don't need to be flaunted on the internet for GW to see.

Sure, its nice to share the hobby with others. But if GW are going to send the warhammer police crashing down through your door and knocking over your Skullvane Manse to stop you posting about your 'alternative End times' where Archaon spontaneously combusts at the last moment after a vision of fantasy space marines whelms him, then perhaps just don't share it on instagram with the tags #checkmeoutjamesworkshop #lookatmeKevinDRountree #Notmytwothincoats

I really never have understood the need to so lead by GW. Sure they are the ones putting the books & fiction out, but nothing says you have to buy or live by it. Use the models how you like and skip over the fluff.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
on a narrative level, if you have a prophecy that is related to a major character, then the prophecy needs to be relevant. if the prophecy says he's going to destroy the world, then at the very least he's going to try

It has to be relevant, it doesn't have to be true or even apply to the person you think it does. Look at Game of Thrones with Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised. Stannis gets a lot of narrative benefit from the former but it's fairly likely that he is not Azor Ahai.

 Mallo wrote:
Simple solution- don't shout about what you are doing all across the internet and wave it in front of GWs face.

yeah, Old World would look much different it we would just remove all the social media content and youtube videos about it
I think you don't understand what GW was up to on the past about those things, there is a reason the cult of officialdom is so strong around Warhammer nowadays

frankelee wrote:Since Norsca wasn't really defined in the foundational lore of 4th edition, it's really just been a 'make it up as you go, who really cares,' situation done in the post-foundational lore. I think an actual civilization would have been a neat idea, but like pretty much everything from the late 90s forward it got dumbed up and Norscans are a bunch of savage tribesmen knowingly or unknowingly worshipping Chaos and basically sitting around doing nothing all day except wanting to appear in a game of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

They don't just sit around all day. Sometimes they play Blood Bowl.

Yeah, have to agree, constantly bringing up that the world will be ended by Archaon anyway feels unnecessary. Both grating for anyone still somewhat sore about the whole End Times thing, and just... pointless? Imagine if Warlord Games, in advertising their Punic Wars game, would include lines referencing that "Scipio's victory over Hannibal at Zama was eventually insignificant as the Western Roman Empire would fall 678 years later regardless". Like, why? What is achieved by mentioning it? We know - but it's irrelevant in a setting for the game, especially in a setting hundreds of years in the past.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d argue 40K more enjoyed a strength that Fantasy didn’t.

40K? Is a vast sandbox. You can have a campaign, official or otherwise, shatter a system and the rest of the galaxy will barely notice.

Fantasy? Only the one world. And losing a city or two just doesn’t feel especially apocalyptic.

Warhammer Fantasy worked as a Fantasy game, but 40K worked best as a setting.

I'd phrase it more as Warhammer Fantasy worked as a setting, but 40k works better as a developing narrative (though the latter also with limitations on how many planets and important characters you are willing to actually sacrifice, and for how long you can keep doing/not doing that...).
And for much of the time, I did not have the impression Warhammer Fantasy was an ongoing narrative. At some point, Storm of Chaos happened, was incorporated in the lore somewhat, then slowly phased out and ignored. Otherwise, army books were about describing the status quo and the past, not working towards some future. People play historical wargames without the need to have a changing narrative. People play MESBG without the expectation of a changing narrative. People have been playing Mordheim for two and a half decades, largely in a very limited and static setting in single city in Warhammer Fantasy, without needing a developing narrative. The setting creates flavour as a backdrop for your armies and games, no story progression is needed. Perhaps ongoing narratives help create opportunities for GW to make new models to sell, but just as easy to just retcon the past and pretend new units have always been there, as still happens all the time anyway...

Empire followed by high elves. Sounds like war wagons are coming back for empire too based on the warcom article

Presumably followed by beasts and wood elves before we get to “other factions” or did they forget they already published the army lists for those factions?

 nathan2004 wrote:
Empire followed by high elves. Sounds like war wagons are coming back for empire too based on the warcom article

I don't see that reference in the article, but man I wish to see it return and being able pick one (or two!)

Edit: Oh yeah, last sentence

Guess I'm banning myself from any more empire stuff til next year. Here's hoping empire archers/huntsman kit are in the first wave because those dang minis are so hard to find lol.

I just want Empire Militia, do I ask for too much?

yes,

for something different, Chaos was released faster than the other armies, without the 3 month waiting time between preview and preorder

but if the next army is in 2025 the question is why, as it makes no sense to speed things up just to extend the waiting time for the next army
like 3 months waiting for Chaos pre-order, the week after Empire preview, 3 months waiting and pre-order/release in January
now we get either wait months for the preview or the time between the preview and preorder is >3 months

Were Dwarfs and WoC released earlier than intended? That roadmap says they're still to come.

Sathrut wrote:
Were Dwarfs and WoC released earlier than intended? That roadmap says they're still to come.

Dwarfs have a MtO release ahead of them, and all of the WoC stuff is yet to go on pre-order as well. The fact we know it is coming does not make it suddenly have happened already. The roadmap is technically correct.

Empire next in 2025, Highelves officially delayed but after Empire

Chaos released earlier than expected by us as not the previous 3 months delay, which brings up the question why.
As doing them faster just increase the time to the next release.

So might just be they need the capacity for the Lord of the Rings release and therefore the metal and resin casting must be free from other (TOW) orders

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I just want Empire Militia, do I ask for too much?

Gotta get those Mordheim kits!

 Darnok wrote:

Sathrut wrote:
Were Dwarfs and WoC released earlier than intended? That roadmap says they're still to come.

Dwarfs have a MtO release ahead of them, and all of the WoC stuff is yet to go on pre-order as well. The fact we know it is coming does not make it suddenly have happened already. The roadmap is technically correct.

While true, the text for Dwarfs sound like they're talking about the entire faction: "Dwarfen Mountain Holds take to the field of battle once more". On the accompanying picture they show the Anvil of Doom and a Chaos Lord and Hell Cannon; the former is already out and the latter are soon to be released.

I could be reading too much into it, but it seems odd to say "Dwarfen Mountain Holds taking to the field" show an iconic mini for the faction (that's already released) instead of something from the second wave.