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Made in de
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Yeah, not gonna lie. Custodes never get the variant SM toys. It doesn't matter, it's still no where near as good as what we currently do have in any event. Nothing in the heavy mecha class outperforms the Telly. It wouldn't fix us in any event to give us a new mech, that doesn't get core, or play with our special rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just as a reminder that SM Dreads get AoC but Custodes ones do not LOL
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Reminder that a BA/DC sgt can be deadlier and harder to kill than a Telemon.
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Italy

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just as a reminder that SM Dreads get AoC but Custodes ones do not LOL


Who would have guessed our Contemptor Dreadnoughts wouldn't get Armor of Contempt
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Who'd have thought the most sneeringly elite/contemptuous demi-gods, who literally have contempt for humanity, or mortals, as they call them, would have armor of Contempt?
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






GW being nonsensical with their rules distribution as always. I guess you can at least say they're consistently inconsistent lol.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Do we even get the new contemptors? I thought we didn't.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do we even get the new contemptors? I thought we didn't.

Nothing is known about them yet.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do we even get the new contemptors? I thought we didn't.


I'm about 85% sure we will NOT get updated rules for the new Contemptor, at least not until we get a new codex 4 years from now. The other 15% of me remains hopeful though.
   
Made in ro
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Are we talking about the 30k contemptors?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are we talking about the 30k contemptors?


Well, yes. However the old plastic Contemptor was also a 30k Contemptor, but also a 40k Contemptor. Let's just say the kit isn't exactly game-locked at the moment.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Guessing that the model will be locked in it's box set for the next few months/years anyway, which given that it's around 2k total points, I'm gonna say will be in the 400-600 USD range.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




So how have you all been faring now since the balance dataslate has been out for a bit? I got some games in and I personally very much feel that we are less durable now. Lists that focus on dreadnoughts to do the heavy lifting seem to work fine for me at least. I am very much enjoying learning more into Shadowkeepers, but I think Emperors Chosen won't go away because of the heavy mortal wound output nowadays.

Also, am I crazy or were wardens one of the most affected units by the bodyguard change? Not only did they lose their primary purpose, but the only benefit of having them now over other infantry in protecting a character is if you have exactly one warden left. Since all our guys count as two models for the purposes of look out sir. That's....really dumb.

Overall I think internal balance of the codex took the biggest hit with the dataslate.

Edit: also GW releasing a FW Compendium FAQ and not buffing Agamatus bikes to 5W or the Adrasite Spears to S7 is beyond hilarious. At least the Telemon is not the most cowardly Custodes unit anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 08:14:12


 
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Well lets just say I had one game with the data slate.
Against tyranids. Far from optimal
I ended up getting tabled T2.
So we then took a second game where not only did we undo the dataslate nerfs, but also gave Custodes AoC.
I ended up loosing something like 85:51.

I dont feel Custodes are anywhere near able to prevail in this meta now. We've got nothing going for us, gameplay wise.

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Made in de
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




By all metrics, yes, we took a nerf from 80% WR to just over 50%.

That being said, Nids are extremely hot right now, and equally bad for you that they are always going to be our flat out WORST match up. We can't compete with Hordes well, at all. That and their Psyker stuff is off the charts bonkers. They have one unit that can drop our Ares with just MWs. That's bonkers.

Yeah, I would say given that they are the scissors to our paper, and they are currently top of the Meta, I think you could give us S10 spears and we'd still eat fat juicy turds.

I'd be interested to see how we do against chaos knights now.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






chaos knights are gonna pubstomp us.

flat 3 damage everywhere, a -1damage strat (making their knight unkillable for us), and now we cant even steal points from them with our terminators and venetari.

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Made in de
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




The new Nid nerfs go a long way to balancing the score, now we still just have no way of dealing with hordes.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Eihnlazer wrote:
chaos knights are gonna pubstomp us.

flat 3 damage everywhere, a -1damage strat (making their knight unkillable for us), and now we cant even steal points from them with our terminators and venetari.


An achillus with Trajann nearby should rough up a knight real good though, shouldn't it? I don't think the achillus can kill a big knight in one combat, but it should punch above it's weight class against them.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






yeah, an achilles can do work on a knight, and we can take 3, but only 1 or 2 will make it into combat and kill one knight. The other 2 knights and/or armigers will kill the other 2 achilles without much trouble the following turn.

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Made in dk
Regular Dakkanaut




after a few games post slate I simply dont understand how we did not get AoC.

I hate the obsec nerf, I hate that bikes can't use transhuman now, but ok, GW did that and I will live with that.

But instead of leaving this beautiful, iconic army totally in the dust why oh why didn't they just give os armor of contempt like every other power armor army got?

2+ with that rule would be super tough vs small arms (which we DEFINETLY should be) but would still meld to all the big guns in the meta and be overall horribly weaker than we were before the slate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/14 21:05:12


 
   
Made in de
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Because if there is literally one thing Custodes don't need, it's better armor saves. I mean, do we really need a 1+? After they literally just nerfed us for being too hard to kill?

We aren't getting armor of contempt. Rage at the lore and thematic gods, I'm still struggling to understand how a Iron Fist Gen 1 Marine fires a bolter better than a Demi-god in Ceramite, that's more practiced in war than the IF's whole chapter combined.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Taking away ObSec on all the units except troops was totally unnecessary, as most of them are now pretty redundant, especially Wardens. The other thing that was unnecessary was limiting the strats to infantry-only. Making Emperor's Auspice a once-per-game was already a huge nerf; there was no need to double down on it. Still, it seems that life, uh, found a way, as there seems to be a Dread-heavy list that has some decent play making the rounds and occasionally putting in good finishes.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 4/26/22, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~18000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~5000
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1100 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~4300
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2021: 114 | Total models painted in 2022: 24 | Current main painting project: Middle-Earth Easterlings
 Mr_Rose wrote:
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

Heh, wasn't it the case that BEFORE the 9th codex we still had some success with dread-heavy lists? It would be pretty funny (and sad) if we basically went:

1) pre-codex: Only competitive with dread heavy

2) codex launch: Competitive with all kinds of things!

3) codex nerf: Only competitive with dread heavy... but now with a new codex!

Anyone else feel like GW basically just took us for the proverbial ride?
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Yeah, unless we see a complete redesign of 40k in 9th, I guess we just keep hovering around 50-60% WR. Is that really so bad? My IG are never going to get the fixes they need with 9th, and my scions are STILL unplayable. My Baneblades will continue to be bulky things for my cat to knock onto the floor. 50-60% ain't that bad. We could be sub 40s.

I'm basically giving up on 9th. Maybe in 10th I'll start up that Blood Angels all Primaris force I've been dying to start for ever. They should be relatively easy to paint.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

Yeah, I've been mostly experimenting with Onepage Rules right now myself. Modern 40k has gotten to the point where it seems like more work than fun... I still love the setting, and have probably thousands of dollars of stuff... but right now at least Onepage Rules just seems to provide a better more consistent experience :-(
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I'll be honest, my love of toy soldiers got me into this, but my painting skills suck, so I might just go back to Reaper minis for DnD model painting. I don't really play 40k that much, and refuse to buy anymore books.
   
Made in dk
Regular Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because if there is literally one thing Custodes don't need, it's better armor saves. I mean, do we really need a 1+? After they literally just nerfed us for being too hard to kill?

We aren't getting armor of contempt. Rage at the lore and thematic gods, I'm still struggling to understand how a Iron Fist Gen 1 Marine fires a bolter better than a Demi-god in Ceramite, that's more practiced in war than the IF's whole chapter combined.


yeah, its really hard for me to swallow. At the end of the day I feel GW integrates the lore rather well, but this just feels so wierd. Its a big thing for me. Custodes somehow represents the old school, behind the scenes, underlying, core power of the Imperium. The need to feel tough as nails. they just dont now.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Scoundrel80 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because if there is literally one thing Custodes don't need, it's better armor saves. I mean, do we really need a 1+? After they literally just nerfed us for being too hard to kill?

We aren't getting armor of contempt. Rage at the lore and thematic gods, I'm still struggling to understand how a Iron Fist Gen 1 Marine fires a bolter better than a Demi-god in Ceramite, that's more practiced in war than the IF's whole chapter combined.


yeah, its really hard for me to swallow. At the end of the day I feel GW integrates the lore rather well, but this just feels so wierd. Its a big thing for me. Custodes somehow represents the old school, behind the scenes, underlying, core power of the Imperium. The need to feel tough as nails. they just dont now.


The design paradigm for the 9th es custodes codex was wrong in one crucial point: Custodes players would have much more preferred to have more expensive, but more powerful models. 5W, 5A terminators are not a problem when priced accordingly and there would be a more appropriate distinction between custodes and marines for example, especially considering armor or contempt.

People often say you can't reflect the lore in the game and they are partly right. But for a game like 40k it's of paramount importance to still try to incorporate that aspect when designing rules and do the lore justice. The different armies and units within that armies have to feel and play different, otherwise you could just go and play checkers or chess. If it's just balance that's the important aspect whats wrong with giving the basic lasgun dmg3 if priced accordingly? Nothing wrong with that from a balance standpoint, but it also massively breaks the immersion. If that loss of immersion is drastic enough, people start losing interest pretty quickly so GW actually needs to be careful here in the long term.

Back to custodes tactics though: anyone already tried souping in a freeblade? I'm not sure of bringing a big knight will have some opportunity cost, but I haven't tired it yet.




   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Tiberias wrote:
Scoundrel80 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because if there is literally one thing Custodes don't need, it's better armor saves. I mean, do we really need a 1+? After they literally just nerfed us for being too hard to kill?

We aren't getting armor of contempt. Rage at the lore and thematic gods, I'm still struggling to understand how a Iron Fist Gen 1 Marine fires a bolter better than a Demi-god in Ceramite, that's more practiced in war than the IF's whole chapter combined.


yeah, its really hard for me to swallow. At the end of the day I feel GW integrates the lore rather well, but this just feels so wierd. Its a big thing for me. Custodes somehow represents the old school, behind the scenes, underlying, core power of the Imperium. The need to feel tough as nails. they just dont now.


The design paradigm for the 9th es custodes codex was wrong in one crucial point: Custodes players would have much more preferred to have more expensive, but more powerful models. 5W, 5A terminators are not a problem when priced accordingly and there would be a more appropriate distinction between custodes and marines for example, especially considering armor or contempt.

People often say you can't reflect the lore in the game and they are partly right. But for a game like 40k it's of paramount importance to still try to incorporate that aspect when designing rules and do the lore justice. The different armies and units within that armies have to feel and play different, otherwise you could just go and play checkers or chess. If it's just balance that's the important aspect whats wrong with giving the basic lasgun dmg3 if priced accordingly? Nothing wrong with that from a balance standpoint, but it also massively breaks the immersion. If that loss of immersion is drastic enough, people start losing interest pretty quickly so GW actually needs to be careful here in the long term.

Back to custodes tactics though: anyone already tried souping in a freeblade? I'm not sure of bringing a big knight will have some opportunity cost, but I haven't tired it yet.

So my general feeling on knights is that until recently, there was no value in it, seeing as how our Telemons were basically better as what we needed them to do. They don't eat up slots, CP, or need a ton of support.

That being said, now that only infantry have obsec, I might take another look at a detachment of Amigers as heavy AT shooters. Then again, our Telemons already do that.I would rather go the opposite way, build a knight list and soup in some Custodes Terminators.




   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User




Tiberias wrote:

The design paradigm for the 9th es custodes codex was wrong in one crucial point: Custodes players would have much more preferred to have more expensive, but more powerful models. 5W, 5A terminators are not a problem when priced accordingly and there would be a more appropriate distinction between custodes and marines for example, especially considering armor or contempt.

People often say you can't reflect the lore in the game and they are partly right. But for a game like 40k it's of paramount importance to still try to incorporate that aspect when designing rules and do the lore justice. The different armies and units within that armies have to feel and play different, otherwise you could just go and play checkers or chess. If it's just balance that's the important aspect whats wrong with giving the basic lasgun dmg3 if priced accordingly? Nothing wrong with that from a balance standpoint, but it also massively breaks the immersion. If that loss of immersion is drastic enough, people start losing interest pretty quickly so GW actually needs to be careful here in the long term.


I think the reason is simple: they ran out of design space. This game revolves around D6. Throws are made with D6, statlines are effectively constrained by D6 (only W and Ld are signficantly different), so a meaningful, lore-friendly separation is only possible if the designers have REALLY tight constraints. This means any encroachment in others' space is fatal. In ye olde times, things were pretty clear in the toughness front for example. Humans and equivalent xenos are at S3T3, superhumans and equivalent xenos are S4T4, TEQ and Custodes S5T5, light vehicles T6, vehicles and big dudes, daemons T7, ass slappers T8. Modifiers were present, but not at a large scale. But T5W3 gravis crept into Custodes space. They were different units still, but the changing meta (e.g. anti-gravis meta) had a lot of collateral damage, unintended, on units which were crept upon. This is just a small example, add to this the inflation of AP (remember in 8th when necrons got a shitton of AP1 and AP2 which signalled an unrivaled ability to vaporize anything due to gauss guns?), and the cascading effects of minor changes (e.g. AoC hurt orks more than anyone, as the "you'll get T5 and AP1 in exchange for the old mob rule and green tide" agreement wasn't held up by GW).

I think there either needs to be a reset of stats, or an expansion into D10 scale (not necessarily the rolls, but the space). GW designers are obviously reactive, which is just the worst possible example. I understand designing this game is hard, especially if you want some identity for the armies, but the "B kills A, so C needs to be able to kill B" mindset inflates the rules. I would definitely include some maths in the point and buff calculations if I were them, at least for baselines.

As for the new Custodes strategy: oops all dreads.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/16 10:59:14


 
   
 
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