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 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:
I get that, but if you can just play KoW at those points anyway, does Ambush need to be its own product? The Ambush boxes will still retail next to KoW and Champions and I can't see smaller stores stocking three boxes of, essentially, the same units. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Ambush move to Direct Only.
Just to reiterate though, I am very much looking forward to Champions!

The big problem with Ambush boxes is that they don't make a game. The example lists included (and shown off on the cover) are not working in practical as nobody who knows about the rules is going to build the 40 Goblins in a box as 2 Regiments of 20, they build 2 Regiments, a Troop and 1-2 heroes to get a 500 point list (but the box doesn't come with enough bases to do that so you need to buy something else)

also you cannot really play with 2 regiments, 4-5 units are a minimum to get the game going, which comes down to 500 points to start (which comes down to knowing about the game and how it works before you build the models)
One could consider that a trap for beginners which Mantic tried to compensate by making the example list formations for the armies (so that those who build the box as suggested can still use it in larger games)


Champions are now a very different format here trying to make it for beginners. Pre-Made Army lists that are balanced against each other, dedicated rules and not just small KoW (hopefully solving some problems 500 points Ambush had) and it might be intresting enough for current KoW players as a side game (750 points Ambush never really did that)

you get the Ambush, Army and Mega Army Boxes to start Kings of War, but to start gaming you now have Champions



Automatically Appended Next Post:
2nd Podcast (similar but different)

So Spearhead/Combat Patrol for Kings of War?

kind of, difference is that it uses its own rules system, based on KoW but not the same (unlike the GW ones)

Appreciate the detailed response there, Kodos. And thanks for the link.

Massive START HERE stickers on the Champions stuff would be a good move!

Preorders are up. https://www.manticgames.com/kings-of-war-champions/

Looks great, small warband led by named heroes is a solid format for any small scale game.

This one will be great for demoing games or introducing players to Mantic, it's drawing a little from spearhead, a little from warmachine, but keeping full multibasing + rank and flank.

Closest games I can think of are something like Battle Havoc! or Wargods of Aegyptus as a similar size and style of game, and both of those are really great so I think Mantic might be able to take it to a larger audience and do really well.

6th WHFB edition border patrol with all the wonderful scenarios for it also qualifies as a good example, although that wasn't a custom ruleset, it did work well, I do hope there are some fun scenarios in there.

hopefully the next clash of kings will have rules for all the new champions so they can be used in full sized games as well. then the progression could easily be:

buy a champions box for your preferred faction.

then once you've gotten the hang of the basic KoW rules, you buy an ambush box for the same faction, adding on a couple larger units to expand your collection into a small KoW army for Ambush, that makes a good core for a larger KOW army.

Did anyone receive their Champions stuff yet? No sign of mine in the US yet.

Yeah, mine arrived on tuesday (uk, fairly quick off the mark with the preorder). The new material the champions are cast in is pretty nice!

Yeah mine arrived Wednesday. Really very impressed with the new sculpts including the new cavalry miniatures

I’m excited for it. I found the product a little early on the website and an email from Ronnie thinking it was the first order. Hope to see it soon.

scarletsquig wrote:
Looks great, small warband led by named heroes is a solid format for any small scale game.

Having watched all their introductory videos I feel the opposite. I was expecting something else tbh.

I was wondering how can interesting decisions and options crammed in a game with only 4 moving pieces per side, so as to compensate for a very low number of interactions on the table. I was thinking, maybe some extra level of card play? Wide menus of options on each unit, like a choice of types of attack, providing an extra non- obvious decision point.

But there seems to be none of these things. Special rules on these crossbows for example provide no decision for a player whatsoever, they just need to be remembered and automatically applied, no brain-racking choices involved.

It's just I don't see much happening in the game at this scale (ie number of individual pieces on the board) with no extra layers of decsion making.

For example ASOIAF has at least a couple of units more per side (5-6) but also Tactics Cards play and the Politics Board "worker placement" mini-game. It is still a relatively simple and fast-flowing game, but design tries to pack more decision points within its limited space. I fail to see such an attempt here.

These nerve tests feel awfully swingy. Having the fate of a unit hang on a single all-or-nothing dice roll when there's only 4 of them feels like a serious kick in the player agency.

So is it "move forward roll some dice and if the opponent is terrible at rolling these Nerve tests I "win""? Pretty disappointing, old-fashioned design really, from what I have seen so far.

You have 3 Orders from the Champion that can go on 3 units or hold back for a re-roll that add a basic level on decision making (as those are all situational)

Nerf roll are less of a problem, to kill a unit it takes some time and effort and it is very tricky to lock a unit into combat

Scoring happens at the end of each round with different scenarios have different decisions to make.

So moving forward to roll some dice and if the opponent is terrible at rolling nerve you lost the game because they played the scenario.

The game is also much shorter, it is meant to be done in 30-60 minutes and not big enough to last 2 hours.
But those 30-60 minutes are engaging enough with the option given

I'm mostly just interested in whether the small tweaks to the core rules (like everyone getting an extra pivot during any type of move) will make it into Ambush

I think if you're looking for complexity, the game intended to be a gateway for the ultra casuals probably isn't gonna hit the spot. I'm just excited to collect a bunch of small warbands and play in a format I can get new people up to speed with really quickly.

There are small details that look like they could make it into 4th, yet the extra pivot is really there to help with the shorter ranges and smaller board so I don't think that specific one is ported over.

Yet you could use the Champions core rules for Ambush as well.
Should work for the smaller games despite having the regular profiles and list building.

Not complexity or crunch, but player agency and interesting decisions.

For example in economy games, if Food Chain Magnate or Brass are too complex, you don't have to switch straigth to mindless Monopoly - there are games that are simple but still offer interesting decisions inbetween the two extremes.

Champions, I am afraid, is Monopoly in this metaphore. Could have been so much more, without ever getting anywhere close to "complex" or "crunchy".

Thanks for explaining your deeply nuanced Monopoly metaphor but I think we get it. I don't agree but I don't think you're really coming into this with an open mind anyway.

I think it's a bit harsh. Champions is an almost fully featured KoW game with 4 preset units a side. As far as I know the only thing removed is Waver, and units are made more maneuverable to protect newbies from getting stuck facing away from the action, and there's a simple but decent resource management bit added in that I honestly like more than the command dice gimmick in 3.5

The tiny preset armies kills it for me, so I just hope the rules changes make it to Ambush and Ambush doesn't get scrapped as redundant. Preset armies is basically the only complaint I've ever heard about Spearhead, so hopefully Mantic isn't daft enough to lean fully into that.

Champions basically replaces 400-500 points Ambush, and works much better in that spot

Regular Ambush, 750-999 points, isn't going away because of that.
But I doubt we see an update to Ambush rules anytime soon.

Billicus wrote:
Thanks for explaining your deeply nuanced Monopoly metaphor but I think we get it. I don't agree but I don't think you're really coming into this with an open mind anyway.

Oh, I was pretty interested when I first heard of it and I was wondering what layers will be added to the base wargaming stuff to make 4 units per side battles interesting and multidimensional. I watched every video. I was put off at the point of watching the Shooting video and the next one sealed the deal. I was hoping for something simple but not shallow.