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Animal Man and Swamp Thing are my two favorites so far. Both Kind of similar in theme as well, and super creepy villains.

That's a lot of comic books ...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34886

Just finished Demon Knights #2 and this is swiftly becoming my favorite of the 52 right now.
Vandal Savage is a hoot.

Manchu wrote:That's a lot of comic books ...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34886

Wow.

What do you guys make of this?: http://enterthestory.com/marvel_time.html http://enterthestory.com/realtime_marvel_1960s.html

I think he's doing some cherry picking but overall his thesis is correct. Also, I think DC falls into this trap too.

I often think about the various Robins v. one another and Bruce Wayne. And then I realize that comics don't need to be constrained by literalism.

Manchu wrote:I often think about the various Robins v. one another and Bruce Wayne. And then I realize that comics don't need to be constrained by literalism.

What do you mean by that?

Well, you know, back in 1940 Dick Grayson was nine years old. That makes him 80 in "real time." That means Bruce is at least 100. Clearly, this isn't the case. Bruce Wayne is shown to be a man in his early 40s at the very oldest and Dick is probably late twenties or early 30s. At the same time, Bruce remembers (via flashback) the various Robins being kids. And in his flashbacks, he himself doesn't look all that much younger. Lookking forward, Damian is currently ten. How long will he be a ten-year old Robin? It's already been five years. So all of these things might make you start to wonder "how the hell does this work"? But it doesn't need to work via real-time in order for the characters to work as characters with interesting relationships, informed (and burdened) by the baggage those relationships have created.

If you want a Real Time comic, Judge Dredd has been good about that.

Oh, I understood that. There's definately some "Marvel Time" going on there. I meant the literalism part.

In real life, we experience the passage of time in a defined way. When we tell stories, we don't necessarily have to use that same definition of the passage of time. In some cases, like Judge Dredd, we decide to use that same definition -- and this is an example of literalism. It's not the same thing as realism, which is quite a bit more loose and relative. For example, Batman is quite a realistic superhero with his gadgets and lack of superpowers. But he's quite far from a literal superhero -- after all, we know that a real person could not actually swing between buildings like that without ripping off their arms (to just use a single example). In Batman comic books, time can be said to pass "realitsically" -- Dick Grayson does grow up, after all, and Bruce Wayne remains older than him by an indeterminate but apparently reasonable amount. But time in the Batbooks is not literal -- it can speed up, slow down, go backwards, jump ahead, etc, etc. I'm skeptical of the need for and ability to create a timeline like the one in the link you posted.

Why not though? He makes a pretty strong case for it. I can't remember if it was you or someone else but once someone posted a good column realted to D&D on why in a world were wizards shoot fireballs from their fingertips it's still important to take into acount where their food comes from.

Isn't a sense of time and/or a timeline a central component of storytelling?
Somewhere in the links to the link I posted he talks about Reed Richards. Do you know Reed Richards is a WWII veteran? Or at least he was. I didn't. That's where he became the Reed Richards "nerd" was forced to become a leader.

In Full: "Mr Fantastic was defined as an introvert scientist who is also a heroic leader of men. Surely that is a contradiction - an introvert extrovert? How did it happen? The early stories explained: it was because of the draft. Introvert Reed Richards was forced into the army, and that's where he became a hero. That's why he was then able to lead the Fantastic Four. In America, the draft means either WWII or Vietnam at the latest, which fixes the possible dates at which Mr Fantastic's career could begin. But the new Reed Richards was never drafted. New writers realize that an introvert scientist would not be a heroic and inspirational leader, he would not be a rounded human being. In stories like the Illuminati he was presented as a jerk: one prominent writer called him "an ***hole". The original Mr Fantastic has been destroyed by Marvel Time."

That wasn't me who posted that article -- I'm not the guy who insists there be bathrooms in dungeons!

Isn't a sense of time and/or a timeline a central component of storytelling?

Yes indeed! Well, sort of -- plot is a narrative sequence. But time doesn't even have to be realistic much less literal in order for it to effectively frame a plot.

It should be relative with reference to itself. Your Robin example for example.
You don't really need a bathroom in a dungeon...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You don't really need a bathroom in a dungeon...

Well, in a literal world, your heroes do need to go to the bathroom. And they may have to take a gak when they're in full plate fighting a beholder. If that's how you want to play D&D, count me out! Same thing applies to comics. I don't need Batman pissing himself because of pressure and heat and whatever else, Kevin Smith. (Yeah, I'm never getting over that.)

Well ya, that's a whole other thing. We have digressed

Back to timeless time: I guess I'll just respond with his counterpoints. Besides the Reed Richards thing:

Marvel Time destroys repeat sales

Marvel sells reprints of back issues. However, Marvel Time undermines and devalues the best stories. As Jerome Thomas wrote, ""I wonder how 'One More Day' impacted the sales of the many popular married Spider-Man stories that are still available in reprint? Stories like 'Kraven's Last Hunt' are now 'wrong.' ...
One of the most touching issues of Amazing Spider-Man ever written was the Death of Aunt May issue. Marvel proceeded to crap all over that story by revealing that it was a really a genetically modified actress hired by the green goblin to blablabla and the real Aunt May was alive and well. Had Marvel not chickened out and kept Aunt May dead like they should have done, I think that a Death of Aunt May trade paperback could have been a nice little seller for decades to come."

Marvel will of course reply that old comics don't sell so well.. except for the 1960s stuff. And why does that sell? Because of a feedback loop. Readers constantly hear about those stories, so they have to buy them. Imagine if every great story was canon, and remained so. Everything would be connected. (And because death would be permanent, the back story would never become too complicated.) Over the years a reader would become aware of more and more connections between new and old stories, until every major story became a "must have" just like the 1960s stuff.

Connections between comics form a positive feedback loop for sales. Marvel Time destroys those connections.

Brand New Day was such a whallop of Marvel Time. I think Peter may have actually gone from 40 years of age to 25. Brand New Day made Anung un Rama cry.

There's something to be said for an important moment that a superhero only goes through once. There is a reason, for example, that we all remember Gwen Stacy's name and none of the girls who lived, except MJ. On the other hand, phrases like "one of the most touching issues of Amazing Spider-Man ever written was the Death of Aunt May issue" make me think of a kind of fanboy elitism. What about the kids who are too young to have read that issue and been affected by it? Do they just lose out? Ah well. And what might have been touching about that issue to readers in 1995 may not actually be touching to readers today. Is it because readers today aren't "real comic book fans" and "don't know what's good from what's bad"? Hmm, that kind of response makes me think of Comic Books Guy from the Simpsons.

I'll give you an example: as a kid, Knightfall was a huge story for me and Jean-Paul Valley became one of my favorite characters. If you weren't a ten year old reading Knightfall, Jean-Paul might not have made an impression on you. The idea that anyone who Bruce Wayne would choose to be Batman could start really hurting and even killing the bad guys was unthinkable. The way that Jean-Paul was losing touch with reality and not really capable of dealing with the pressures that Bruce must have been facing all along was fascinating. Of course, all of that is "so done" here in 2011. Comic readers are demanding heroes who routinely maim if not kill the bad guys. It was very touching to me back in 1994 but people wouldn't go for it these days.

It's not because they're not real comics fans. It's also not because they are incapable of experiencing the same shock and fascination that I did upon encountering these aspects of the Batman mythos. Readers in this past decade experienced something similar in the Under the Red Hood storyline. If comic book time was literalized, if the dead stayed dead -- well, think of that: no Red Hood because no Jason Todd. Death in the Family would be something that only people of a very certain, fleeting moment could really experience. I prefer comics the way they are, for populist reasons among others.

Fanboy elitism? No, they'd just be important parts in the story. I'm glad you brought up Gwen Stacy because it's one of the most important events in Peter Parker's life but I can't even tell you if that actually happened anymore. There's nothing stopping anyone comic fan or not from reading that story....except there is: Brand New Day. Try explaining that to someone. The death of Aunt May is would be one of the most touching stories in Spider-Man because it's something we can all relate to regardless of whether you started reading comics in 1980 or 2008...except that she came back to life. Once again, try explaining that. When something crazy happens in The Fellowship of the Ring those who refer to it don't get called fanboys because they read Return of the King.

Similarly, when Batman's back was broken and he was replaced by a caped crusader with a much harder edge it was another historic moment. Those who know their comic history know it was a sign of the times. Darker more violent Spawn-like heroes were all the rage. A major life event for Batman but did that happen now? Seems like a shame to throw that all away.

Should the events that happen in comics matter?
If it's just the characters continued existence that's paramount, honestly why do we read them? Why do we care what happens to them?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Marvel sells reprints of back issues. However, Marvel Time undermines and devalues the best stories. As Jerome Thomas wrote, ""I wonder how 'One More Day' impacted the sales of the many popular married Spider-Man stories that are still available in reprint? Stories like 'Kraven's Last Hunt' are now 'wrong.' ...
One of the most touching issues of Amazing Spider-Man ever written was the Death of Aunt May issue. Marvel proceeded to crap all over that story by revealing that it was a really a genetically modified actress hired by the green goblin to blablabla and the real Aunt May was alive and well. Had Marvel not chickened out and kept Aunt May dead like they should have done, I think that a Death of Aunt May trade paperback could have been a nice little seller for decades to come."

I get what you're saying with this, but I really enjoyed the whole "Aunt May dicovers Peter's secret identity"-arc and what followed during JMS' run on Spider-Man. It gave their little familiy a new dynamic and made for some great scenes.

Of course, it was all ruined by...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Brand New Day made Anung un Rama cry.

Yes. Yes it does. Go die in a fire, Quesada.

It's an interesting point with the changes made in Comic contiuity. I think I enjoyed most of the "natural" changes (read: everything except OMD) Dick becoming Batman, Spidey
s new suit and being part of the Avengers. And way I back I remember that I did prefer Ben Reilly over Peter Parker as Spider-Man.
Same thing goes for USM. I quite enjoyed the new set-up after Ultimatum with all those teenage super heroes living with Aunt May. Just in the last TPB I read S.H.I.E.L.D. decided that Peter needed "Superhero training" which sounds like a great set-up for team-ups with some of the bigger heroes. And there was a nice scene with Jonah and Peter talking about his secred identy. Also really something I would like to see continued. However, it was a book called Death of Spider-Man: Prolouge
I knew it was coming, but does it have to happen when I just started enjoying it again?

I was about to say: you know what happens during his superhero training? It doesn't go well. The Ultimateverse is the realtime Marvel universe now. In many ways I prefer it because they play for keeps there.

As for the "normal" universe was that even the first time Aunt May discovered Spidey's identity? That's just another one of those things that doesn't matter because it usually gets retconned. Currently she does not know again but is leaving his life anyway. She's moving to Boston. Not a bad idea. As I've said before New York City gets destroyed every 28 minutes in the Marvel U. I don't why anyone lives there let alone millions of people.

I've heard a lot good about demon knights, I might actually pick that up. Haven't picked up any of the relaunch titles as I'm waiting to see how good they are... might try digital of demon knights.

KamikazeCanuck wrote: I was about to say: you know what happens during his superhero training? It doesn't go well. The Ultimateverse is the realtime Marvel universe now. In many ways I prefer it because they play for keeps there.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:As for the "normal" universe was that even the first time Aunt May discovered Spidey's identity? That's just another one of those things that doesn't matter because it usually gets retconned.

Well, she remembered it until OMD, when EVERYBODY forgot Peter is Spider-Man. Even Norman Osborn, who's entire relationship with Peter is based on the fact they they know each other's secret identities.

Whelp, I'm going through the digital process now. Hopefully this won't be a pita.


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They actually did a damned good job with their digital comics.


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DIE TASTY RARE CREATURES! DIEEE~!

I like Vandal Savage now...

I think Melissia is having some sort of stroke....

Just finished a Batman story from before the reboot. I can NOT believe that the friggin' father of Rhas al Ghul is actually a character. Why do we need him?

Also reading Deadpool Corps. I admire Rob Liefelds ability to avoid drawing feet on almost every occasion.

Doesn't Deadpool Corps have nothing to do with Liefeld?
Did you read Joe Kelly's Deadpool?

Liefeld is drawing Deadpool Corps- At least the story I read last. Has to be issue 5-10, if I'm not mistaken.

And yes, I've read Deadpool Classics #2, is was fantastic. Deadpool is a much more interesting character then he is these days, without losing his humor. Classics #3 is in my amazon shopping cart and just waiting to be ordered.

Why is Liefeld working now? He's penciling another book called Infinite and I think he has another one too. He's back and he's busier than ever!
Let me know when Deadpool gets back to his non-scizophrenic non-4th wall breaking roots.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Let me know when Deadpool gets back to his non-scizophrenic non-4th wall breaking roots.

That take a while... with a 'while' turning out to be 'never'!

Liefeld is penceling Hawk and Dove in the new 52. And you probably get most Deadpool stories before me. I'll have to order them from the UK or wait for the translation.

Have you read the Deadpool Marvel Max story and/or Deadpool: Pulp?

Actually, Deadpool went serious there for a while, just a couple months ago. He was suicidal, not talking to his caption boxes and contained within 3 walls. Then at the end of the arc...BWA HA! I'm back baby! What do you think white box? you yellow box?