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^that

Viktor von Domm wrote:can´t have it...didn´t say the magic word...

oh and best we do not ruin the_blackadder´s thread anymore^^

Yes I think Mxwllmdr's 'Electro T'hawk' thread is becoming quite chaotic. I would appreciate this thread remain "On topic." lest interested parties unsubscribe because of email clutter. I enjoy witty repartee as much as the next fellow but it sometimes gets out of hand.

Git off your Blackadder.

Back to business:

Before I close up the workings of the feet perhaps a demo of the hinges I came up with to allow the side toes to flex. At tis point they can flex up and down but once the box like hydraulic compartments at the base of the toes are installed upward movement will be restricted.

WOW Black, they are looking awesome!!!

Thanks I' m glad someone posted because I have another image of this mornings work and I didn't want it appended to the above post.

You have to look careful but the hydraulic compartment housings that actuate the side toes are installed and wonder of wonders they fit under the discs.

So this must be the plan of a real Warlord!

Whoa!

Your attention to detail is astounding my good sir!

I honestly cannot wait for more of this.

flexible toes for a warhound titan... somehowi didn´t expect this... i am quite surprised...but in a very good way!!!

I don't know I stated this before but I did some studies on the dynamics of walking and for a Titan to walk convincingly it would have to apply pressure with its front toes at the incept of the step just as we do, the side toes provide stability on uneven terrain and also assist in the initial stepping evolution by pushing down as the foot is raised. At the completion of the step the heel comes into play cushioning the landing of the foot so as not to jar the upper works too much. Naturally the front and back toes reverse duties when the titan steps backwards something that we cannot do and is why the dance step 'Moon walking' appears so strange to us.

BTW Lucie's toes were fully articulated with the exception of the rear spur which was a more of a shock absorber only. Warhounds can't walk backwards.

I've put Chrisagon on hold for today because the Sun is well over the yardarm but the front toe mechanism is well underway.

well... i would love to do some functioning models one day too... but for now i stick to nonposable ones... but seeing as yours is capable of that and you are right...that´s what these toes are for... stabalizing on uneven terrain! otherwise they would topple when moviing and if terrain would be not even... which is like...always...^^

that's impressive!

Love the detailingand thought that goes into it Black

although, I always imagined a titan walking like this:

Thanks for posting that I've see it before and is the primary reason I researched the mechanics of walking. You will note that without the flexible foot the biped walks like it has a load in it's pants. Now if you want your enemy to laugh itself to death (do Tyranids laugh?) Field a squad of titans with inflexible feet. Otherwise dignity demands a more natural gait.

We tend not to have a sense of humour... and tbh... Carnifex look like they've just crapped their collective pants anyway...

Lol, I see your point, well as ever, keep up the good work

do Tyranids laugh

i bet they snigger a lot!

The_Blackadder wrote:I don't know I stated this before but I did some studies on the dynamics of walking ...

Hi, I've been following your t'hawk project for some time and this project from the start; I'm also wrestling with a functional Warlord design and your efforts are very helpful.

I was really curious how are you gonna tackle the articulation of the toes and seeing what you've devised I have some questions and comments:

- don't you think that the side toes should also have some upwards mobility? In case, for example, of the foot stepping into some depression in the ground? In such case they could easily get damaged or impair the stability of the whole construct, if the ground didn't yield.

- do you plan to mask somehow the hinge mechanism in the side toes? As it is now it's clearly visible with the toe bent down.

- you seem to have run out of room for the articulation of the diagonal stabilizing toes. I imagine they should have quite large range of movement not to restrict the front toe, which might be the case here.

- also I'm wondering if it's a good idea to place the hinge on the upper edge of the front toe - there's quite a gap from the underside when it's bent and I can't help but think what would happen with the real thing if something got stuck in there (like a tank turret, or a fragment of a ferrocrete wall). According to your theory of walking it would impair the Titan's ability to actually step forward.

- why didn't you choose to articulate the 'ankle' with a ball joint, as it is with Warhoun Titans? It seems to be an easiest and most intuitive design - and three enormous actuators on the Epic Titan model, one in the back an two on the sides, seem to corroborate such a construction.

(Forgive my wording or spelling errors, I'm not a native speaker).

Xypus wrote:

The_Blackadder wrote:I don't know I stated this before but I did some studies on the dynamics of walking ...

Hi, I've been following your t'hawk project for some time and this project from the start; I'm also wrestling with a functional Warlord design and your efforts are very helpful.

I was really curious how are you gonna tackle the articulation of the toes and seeing what you've devised I have some questions and comments:

- don't you think that the side toes should also have some upwards mobility? In case, for example, of the foot stepping into some depression in the ground? In such case they could easily get damaged or impair the stability of the whole construct, if the ground didn't yield.

The way I interpret the toes the diagonal toes are stationary or extend to increase stability when the opposing foot is in the air. The side toes do not need to flex upward.

do you plan to mask somehow the hinge mechanism in the side toes? As it is now it's clearly visible with the toe bent down.

It's not visible now with the hydraulic compartments installed the hinge is completely hidden.

you seem to have run out of room for the articulation of the diagonal stabilizing toes. I imagine they should have quite large range of movement not to restrict the front toe, which might be the case here.

also I'm wondering if it's a good idea to place the hinge on the upper edge of the front toe - there's quite a gap from the underside when it's bent and I can't help but think what would happen with the real thing if something got stuck in there (like a tank turret, or a fragment of a ferrocrete wall). According to your theory of walking it would impair the Titan's ability to actually step forward.

I'm only following the visual evidence on the rather primitive epic model I would suppose that on a real titan precautions would be taken to prevent jamming and FOD.

why didn't you choose to articulate the 'ankle' with a ball joint, as it is with Warhound Titans? It seems to be an easiest and most intuitive design - and three enormous actuators on the Epic Titan model, one in the back an two on the sides, seem to corroborate such a construction.

I explained that in an earlier post but I will repeat it here:

The model shows a disc shaped plate at the end of the shank that is not in the Warhound. I see no evidence of steering/tilting actuators as in the Warhound.

The Warlord needn't be as quick or nimble as a Warhound any more than a battleship needs to emulate a destroyer and therefore doesn't require the flexibility the ball socket affords. Instead it has the benefit of the much stronger ankle attachment with one axis above and one axis below the disc that incidentally is similar to the way the human foot works that also does not employ a ball/socket arrangement although nature does have ball and socket joints elsewhere in the body i.e. shoulder and hip.

You're not going to quibble with the Grand Designer are you?

Also you have to remember that the ball/socket in the Warhound is not the ankle. The actual ankle is the joint above the greaves. which cannot turn or swivel. What the ball/socket is corresponds to the so-called ball of our foot directly behind the toes. The Warhound actually walks/runs on tiptoes as we do when we run. It's an entirely different means of locomotion.

(Forgive my wording or spelling errors, I'm not a native speaker).

You could have fooled me.

Black, you are definitely one to follow my good sir, I intend to do a lot of detailing when it comes to building my "Knight" mini-titan.

out of curiosity, would you suggest a ball or plate joint on a Knight?

Judging by the images I found on google the ankle is completely hidden by the greaves. what do you intend to do differently?

The_Blackadder wrote:Judging by the images I found on google the ankle is completely hidden by the greaves. what do you intend to do differently?

Not sure really, I know I want all pistons/pneumatics for a really archaic look. As I want to keep true to the original, but bring it into line with the pre heresy mini's that FW are doing.

Well the weekend is over and in a flurry of productiveness I managed to attach one front toe With hinge as planned and it works and seems relatively strong

Now the diagonal stabilizers need a bit of work but nothing extraordinary and they do allow the foot to flex so there's no cause for concern. I can't mount the back toes yet as I have to find 3/8 dia light springs to stabilize the disc; much better than my piston cylinder design, a suggestion from Zathros, a Moderator on another forum and to whom I say thanks.



You can see by the attached DS image it follows the non-moveable model rather closely which is satisfactory to me.

Looking great! As i know nothing on the topic of scratch builds, consider this post mindless compliments. I do know enough to realize this thing is gonna be epic.

The_Blackadder wrote:

The way I interpret the toes the diagonal toes are stationary or extend to increase stability when the opposing foot is in the air.

I'm still not convinced. With the front toe flexed upward the points of the diagonals extend below its bottom surface, effectively separating it from the ground. Unless I'm missing something...

The side toes do not need to flex upward.

Why, actually? Again - if the Titan steps into a depression without the middle of the foot supported, the whole weight of it rests on the toes, be it actual ones or diagonals. Do you think they'd be sturdy enough to support it?

you seem to have run out of room for the articulation of the diagonal stabilizing toes. I imagine they should have quite large range of movement not to restrict the front toe, which might be the case here.

I'm only following the visual evidence on the rather primitive epic model I would suppose that on a real titan precautions would be taken to prevent jamming and FOD.

Epic model doesn't really show it this way or another in my opinion - but by comparison I think the articulation of the toes on the Warhound seems a bulletproof enough design; personally I'd go for that (I mean the axis of the hinge in the middle of the toe height instead of on top of it). What do you think of it?

The model shows a disc shaped plate at the end of the shank that is not in the Warhound. I see no evidence of steering/tilting actuators as in the Warhound.

OK, so what are those two giant actuators on the sides for? They're attached to the disc and up under the knee, and they're definitely actuators. What's their function, if the shin does not tilt sideways on the disc? Or maybe they're not actuators, now I'm not sure anymore

The Warlord needn't be as quick or nimble as a Warhound any more than a battleship needs to emulate a destroyer and therefore doesn't require the flexibility the ball socket affords. Instead it has the benefit of the much stronger ankle attachment with one axis above and one axis below the disc that incidentally is similar to the way the human foot works that also does not employ a ball/socket arrangement although nature does have ball and socket joints elsewhere in the body i.e. shoulder and hip.

OK, you got me here, that makes sense.

Also you have to remember that the ball/socket in the Warhound is not the ankle. The actual ankle is the joint above the greaves. which cannot turn or swivel. What the ball/socket is corresponds to the so-called ball of our foot directly behind the toes. The Warhound actually walks/runs on tiptoes as we do when we run. It's an entirely different means of locomotion.

Duly noted

For the record - I'm not trying to snipe at your work, far from it - I admire it very much - and I'm sorry if my comments sound unpleasant. I'm more like bouncing my ideas off you; I hate discovering something important halfway through my work and having to start over and I want to be 100% positive on my design.

I echo the admiration. My question is concerning the underside of the disc. The four upright cylinders: I am assuming enter into the underside disc? Is this where you are talking about putting the light weight springs for stabilizing the disc?

Apologies, Black, if you talked about this before. I know it must be frustrating explaining yourself again and again, but I am mere mortal and sometimes your words elude me....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is how I see your design. Please let me know if I am tracking your thought process right...




A) Is how I see your disc springs and pivot point.

B) is how I see the ankle.


Together they give the foot the 360 degree rotation ability a human foot has....

C) is where I see the pivot point on your toes.

D) What is incompatible with the design to have the pivot point of the toes here instead? In the center of the back wall of the toe, where it gives the same amount of up versus down tilt. I am sure you thought of this, I just can't see why you chose the upper vantage point.


And please excuse me posting such a crude photo of your pristine design. I suck at paint.....

Well I'm giving it my best shot I have delved into anatomy, dynamics, engineering, and this is the best I have come up with given that I didn't design the d---ed thing I'm only trying to make it work and maintain the aesthetics of the design. Of course if you want to redesign the foot there are a variety of options but it won't look like a Warlord; at least the one I want to build.

The fun part of this project is to rationalize the design and try to make it work within the confines of the actual structure.

Mebbe DS had the right idea. A couple of ambiguous images of the construction and a series of kick ass finished product photos.

BTW finding these 7/16" light compression springs is harder than I thought. I might have to go with a (read 2) floppy disc.



Mxwllmdr I see no error in your drawings except for D The DS Warlord clearly shows the pivot points on front and side toes as Above the top surface which leads me to believe that the toes are supposed to operate independent of each other. Thats where I draw the line. I haven't the intellect or the ambition to delve further into this construction.

WYSIWYG.

The Black Adder has left the building! Case closed.

WYSIWYG. That I understand. I figured you had a reason for it and I saw it that way on the DS model, too. Just asked. Thank you.....

Okay I worked a little on the front toe to address the problem of 'foreign object damage' (FOD) between the surfaces that Xypus pointed out.

This image is a rough approximation of what I propose and it also cures the block like aspect of the toe attaching point that I wasn't too pleased with.

I found some 1/2 inch springs 1 inch tall and set about modifying the disc stabilizing system to accept them. I have to admit it works rather well.

WOW black, when you said fully functioning, you really weren't kidding!!!

FANBLOODYTASTIC!!!

Holy feth, black.
You are c-r-a-z-y.

Xypus wrote:For the record - I'm not trying to snipe at your work, far from it - I admire it very much - and I'm sorry if my comments sound unpleasant. I'm more like bouncing my ideas off you; I hate discovering something important halfway through my work and having to start over and I want to be 100% positive on my design.

I didn't think you sounded bad, you asked questions that I was curious about.

I often have questions about stuff in the forums I watch, but people can get their panties all up in a wad if you sometimes ask questions they've already answered. I also don't want to appear stupid asking a question about something that doesn't make sense. I thank you for stepping up. I can't imagine Black has an issue. Well, he has issues, this just isn't one of them

I reread my comments and rationals for why I built the feet/toes the way I did in answer to Xypus' questions and I don't see that I was at all bothered by the questions or how they were phrased in my replies. I relish explaining the whys and wherefores of what I do and am certainly receptive to another point of view. I'm sorry if it came across that way but one must realize I do occasionally have a warm buzz going for me in the early evening especially on the weekend which is directly proportional to my loquacity (can't believe I spelt that right!)

In reflection I may have seemed a bit terse in my response to Mxwllmdr what with "WYSIWYG" and "B'adder has left the building etc" but I've been aching to use that expression and that seemed a good place of it. I put a lot of thought into my answers and try to write as amusing as I can ofttimes feigning the irascible characteristics of the pseudo persona I have adopted as my sobriquet.

Because I am,

The Black Adder (I wish I could append the BA theme music right here.) TA Taaaa, ta ta ta ta ta taaaaa!