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So... last episode:

That may have been the stated reason, but really I think it represented Rick's desire to set down the gun and pick up the shovel. Of course, we saw where that dream went at the end with his actions in the truck.

And attribute it to what you will, but the end result is that they've let down their guard. The fence outside may make them feel safe, but the lack of guards inside cell blocks is just plain reckless.

I don't think the rats are clearly from anyone. Anything's possible, but I hesitate to jump on board believing that the seemingly squeamish little girl is catching live rats and feeding them to zombies.

@whembly: To be fair to Rick, they were talking about getting rid of the pigs since they were probably infected.

@gorgon: I was saying they should just lock each block at night or lock their own doors. Leave the keys on a hook near the door and they'll be fine.

 whembly wrote:
So... last episode:

Spoiler:

The most compelling part for me was when Rick used the pigs as zombie chum... and that's tragic because it’s a betrayal of the innocent by someone decent who’s been forced by circumstance into unimaginable ruthlessness... Andrew Lincoln played it PERFECT too... big emotion would have made the scene ridiculous but that understatement makes it feel like he’s doing all he can to hold it together amid the horror of what he’s doing. I'd argue that the overall cast's acting is getting better... the nuances for scenes like this just sells.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
@whembly: To be fair to Rick, they were talking about getting rid of the pigs since they were probably infected.

@gorgon: I was saying they should just lock each block at night or lock their own doors. Leave the keys on a hook near the door and they'll be fine.

If there's one key per cell, I guess that would work. But maybe they don't want to sleep and live under lock and key. Seems to me that they just need two people a night, each with a 4-hour shift. They wouldn't even have to be fighters...they just need to be able to make noise and wake people up if something happened.

@Gorgon. I think the person feeding them rats is the little girl because she's trying to make friends with them. And then I think the person who burned the bodies is basically an extremist who thinks they are doing it for the good of the group. In fact Carol would be my lead suspect.

I don't think there's a "traitor" per se. Now maybe I'm being naive but also I don't want there to be a traitor/infiltrator because I would find that contrived and tired.

Ayah we don't need the usual traitor scenario. Frankly, in a world where the only security is the jail and your group, surrounded by things trying to kill you, its an excellent motivational againat betrayal.

Rick put the gun and hat down to be a role model for Carl so he doesn't grow up and use the gun first then try to talk to people.




If they constantly talk about making sure the prison will be permanent, they Are doing JACK -blank- to keep it that way. There are tons of things they could do to make the area safer.

 Frazzled wrote:
Ayah we don't need the usual traitor scenario. Frankly, in a world where the only security is the jail and your group, surrounded by things trying to kill you, its an excellent motivational againat betrayal.

Yes, and like you I'm not exactly looking forward to the inevitable "Return of The Govenor". A Gubnatorial secret agent hastens his return and also is lame.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Ayah we don't need the usual traitor scenario. Frankly, in a world where the only security is the jail and your group, surrounded by things trying to kill you, its an excellent motivational againat betrayal.

Yes, and like you I'm not exactly looking forward to the inevitable "Return of The Govenor". A Gubnatorial secret agent hastens his return and also is lame.

Agreed on both counts. The Governor's losing it at the end and killing a bunch of people kind of sealed the deal no?

 Frazzled wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Ayah we don't need the usual traitor scenario. Frankly, in a world where the only security is the jail and your group, surrounded by things trying to kill you, its an excellent motivational againat betrayal.

Yes, and like you I'm not exactly looking forward to the inevitable "Return of The Govenor". A Gubnatorial secret agent hastens his return and also is lame.

Agreed on both counts. The Governor's losing it at the end and killing a bunch of people kind of sealed the deal no?

For cliched lameness or why people wouldn't work with that guy?

Not seen the 2nd ep yet - but I think the one girl thinks they are still "different humans" as thats what everyone officially thought in the nice little town she lived happly in with her friends, and power, and gardens and mod cons - and real houses............not prison cells

That nice safe town that worked fine till a bunch of nutters shot the place up and then started a war with them and dragged them all out to a dirty smelly unsafe prison surrounded by loads of "different" people who want to eat them - at least that s what I think she and some of the former townsfolk are thinking?

Why don't they create a flame thrower type weapon and burn the zombies at/off the fence?

 Byte wrote:
Why don't they create a flame thrower type weapon and burn the zombies at/off the fence?

Using logic in a zombie apocalypse is not possible. finding some fuel, a squirt gun and spraying the group at the fence then lighting them on fire with a torch is NOT POSSIBLE and not a prioirty for the group. Taking time to find some clay, Machined wood, steel grill, briquettes to make an out door BBQ pit is more important then making your only god dam home a fortress... but people want a BBQ pit more than they want to be safe.

Flamethrowers aren't really good anti-zombie weapons. They just result in the zombie also being on fire so that when he bites you he also sets you on fire...

Burning them would Cook the brain preventing any synapses from firing killing the zombie outright. they can also burn the flesh and muscle from the bone making it impossible for the zombie to move/bite if the brain survives the burn. A flamethrower is a perfect Zombie weapon

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Burning them would Cook the brain preventing any synapses from firing killing the zombie outright. they can also burn the flesh and muscle from the bone making it impossible for the zombie to move/bite if the brain survives the burn. A flamethrower is a perfect Zombie weapon

Depending on the situation, perhaps. But its a chain link fence, if you leave burning bodies and have burning fuel sitting on a chain link fence for ages, how long until it starts weakening? I reckon a firepit is a better idea. If there was a break in zombies, dig a pit 10m or so out from the wall, put some fuel in it, light it with an arrow/thrown torch/whatever, then just add some more fuel next time there is a break and do it again. Zombies would continuously fall in, and you'd only need a bit of fuel to burn their feet/ankles so they couldn't stand, then more could fall in, then when its nearing full you could put more fuel in and light it proper, burning them all until they are not functioning. A flamethrower just adds extra things that can go wrong, from the fence being weakened by the fire to a spark setting off the fuel tank and blowing a hole in your perimeter.

 motyak wrote:


Depending on the situation, perhaps. But its a chain link fence, if you leave burning bodies and have burning fuel sitting on a chain link fence for ages, how long until it starts weakening? I reckon a firepit is a better idea. If there was a break in zombies, dig a pit 10m or so out from the wall, put some fuel in it, light it with an arrow/thrown torch/whatever, then just add some more fuel next time there is a break and do it again. Zombies would continuously fall in, and you'd only need a bit of fuel to burn their feet/ankles so they couldn't stand, then more could fall in, then when its nearing full you could put more fuel in and light it proper, burning them all until they are not functioning. A flamethrower just adds extra things that can go wrong, from the fence being weakened by the fire to a spark setting off the fuel tank and blowing a hole in your perimeter.

Eh there are tons of things they could do to make their chain link fence stronger. they could fill that gap between the 2 fences with Dirt. while this would take a few weeks they could manage it if groups go out at a time to dig up the area infront of the outside fence and move the dirt inside. Would take time but something they could do. They could get deisel and get a tractor/trailer head around to each hardware store/gardening store and grab all the big bags of dirt and bring it back to the prison, then stack them along the outer fence to reinforce it (if they want a butt load of sandbags they could head back to the CDC and gather up all the sandbags, along with any weapons that were stored and probably a lot of ammo as well.). heck they could pick up bags of fertilizers for their crops to have a larger yield.

If they wanted to draw the walkers from the prison they could pull a page from Left 4 Dead. Fire alarm buzzers, taped to a pipebomb (could be any explosive device) and then set in an area to draw a "horde" towards it and BAM large group of walkers gone.

Having the two fences is good. It allows them to walk the perimeter in relative safety while having another fence to fall back behind if things go south.
Any dirt should be outside. Dig a ditch and pile the excavated dirt on the prison side of the ditch so any walkers that fall into the ditch then have an earth wall to climb up as well as the ditch iteself.
The people don't seem to be doing anything else so get them fortifying the place. There's a garage full of busses and the like that they could be reinforcing too if needed. Instead they all seem to sit around doing nothing while Daryl goes out and gets dinner for them.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Burning them would Cook the brain preventing any synapses from firing killing the zombie outright. they can also burn the flesh and muscle from the bone making it impossible for the zombie to move/bite if the brain survives the burn. A flamethrower is a perfect Zombie weapon

They could just make a nice moat. A dried up muddy creek appeared to be an excellent barrier in the previous season.
Also, get a McCormick Reaper or even a bulldozer. Time for some mechanical advantage boys!

Flame weapons are good in a siege type situation, where you have a large amount of zombies bunched up.... it immobilizes them and also gets rid of the bodies, and if you use molotov cocktails you can find plenty of ammo. And yes with the amount of people there vs. zombies they should have had no problem fortifying the place better... especially considering they still have motor vehicles and gas to move around trees and such. A simple mud field moat with stakes and small animals in cages would have done the trick.... pretty tragic that rick has to sacrifice his precious pigs.

I think some of you folks are overestimating the size of the population and underestimating the size of the fence and the amount of work involved with some of your suggestions. Moving earth with shovels is hard work and most of the women and children aren't going to be able to pitch in. And the Woodbury population seems heavily weighted toward women and children since the Governator drafted most of the men, most of whom died to zombies, Rick's group, or the Gov himself.

They're also looking at potentially hard earth to move. If the weather's been hot and that Georgia red clay has had a chance to bake, you're probably looking at pickaxes and not shovels. Then you have to provide security for the workers, which is similarly labor-intensive AND largely draws on the same pool of able-bodied men.

Digging machines are potentially an answer for the earth-moving problem, but they don't come "free." They'd burn a lot of fuel in transport and in use, and the noise is definitely gonna increase the zombie draw.

With unlimited resources and equipment, sure, build moats, earth dams, deffrollas, and whatever you want. But that's not their situation.

They kinda of explain why they don't use fire on the Talking Dead. Essentially it comes down to two reasons. One, lighting the forest on fire. No using fire after a good long rain storm might still be an option but that leaves issue number 2 which is a giant smoke cloud could attract humans. And while the group is fine letting them in in drips and drabs they haven't had the best luck with other large groups they have met.

As for the rats and the burned people I'm not convinced it's a traitor or someone working for the Gov. It's likely two different people and I wouldn't put it past some crazy in the prison. The bodies could have been the work of anybody since we don't really know the people who moved in. I highly doubt it's a member of the original group or Tyreese/Sasha.

 gorgon wrote:
I think some of you folks are overestimating the size of the population and underestimating the size of the fence and the amount of work involved with some of your suggestions. Moving earth with shovels is hard work and most of the women and children aren't going to be able to pitch in. And the Woodbury population seems heavily weighted toward women and children since the Governator drafted most of the men, most of whom died to zombies, Rick's group, or the Gov himself.

They're also looking at potentially hard earth to move. If the weather's been hot and that Georgia red clay has had a chance to bake, you're probably looking at pickaxes and not shovels. Then you have to provide security for the workers, which is similarly labor-intensive AND largely draws on the same pool of able-bodied men.

Digging machines are potentially an answer for the earth-moving problem, but they don't come "free." They'd burn a lot of fuel in transport and in use, and the noise is definitely gonna increase the zombie draw.

With unlimited resources and equipment, sure, build moats, earth dams, deffrollas, and whatever you want. But that's not their situation.

Who needs a shovel? Use a tractor and backhoe. Let technology do the work. America Hurr!

The comments in my post about equipment stand. They make the digging easier, but finding, securing, transporting, and operating are all still resource-heavy operations.

 gorgon wrote:
The comments in my post about equipment stand. They make the digging easier, but finding, securing, transporting, and operating are all still resource-heavy operations.

you're right. they should let Michonne keep looking for comic books/ reading material/ Shaving equipment/GOVNAH! instead of going around the WHOLE GOD DAM STATE writing down the equipment and supplies she comes across. Yup its best to do nothing and let the place you want to last get destoryed by a herd of 20 walkers... Also the Fence only goes around that Area with the field its about 200 yrds long. the other area of the prison is Concrete and brick walls as the overview in season 2 and when tyreese and those other climbed over the rubble has shown.

they have everything they need around them but do jack gak to solve any problems. They are running low on food, they head to the supermarket(which was probably raided during the first days of the infection) instead of heading to truck stops, train yards, distribution centers. Looking in trailer/cargo containers for a large ammount of canned goods.

While not shown they must have taken all the available food from Woodbury with them. Now that place seemed to be operating close to modern standards of living so their food supply must have been pretty good. A town like that would also have had fruit trees and home gardens producing fruit and vegetables.
I would hope that that food supply is still being looked after by teams of people.

Where are the animals though? Some pigs were found and there's a horse, but no cows? I'd at least expect a dog or two. Maybe they die after biting the walkers?

They die after the walkers bite them....and eat them.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
The comments in my post about equipment stand. They make the digging easier, but finding, securing, transporting, and operating are all still resource-heavy operations.

you're right. they should let Michonne keep looking for comic books/ reading material/ Shaving equipment/GOVNAH! instead of going around the WHOLE GOD DAM STATE writing down the equipment and supplies she comes across. Yup its best to do nothing and let the place you want to last get destoryed by a herd of 20 walkers... Also the Fence only goes around that Area with the field its about 200 yrds long. the other area of the prison is Concrete and brick walls as the overview in season 2 and when tyreese and those other climbed over the rubble has shown.

they have everything they need around them but do jack gak to solve any problems. They are running low on food, they head to the supermarket(which was probably raided during the first days of the infection) instead of heading to truck stops, train yards, distribution centers. Looking in trailer/cargo containers for a large ammount of canned goods.

Look, I know these zombie apocalypse discussions can have a tendency to degenerate. My point is that some of these things that are being discussed are easily done in a thought experiment, but potentially harder in reality if one assumes even a few reasonable issues with resources and manpower. One wiki says there's 45 people at the prison. Take out the women and children -- and a few that aren't able-bodied, like Herschel -- and it's not exactly an army of workers and fighters.

So the judgment call comes into play -- do you spend possibly significant resources and expose your people to risk in the name of reinforcing fences that were already doing the job? I don't think it's a slam dunk.

Another possibly important general point is that the Woodbury refugees might be as soft as tissue paper given their sheltered lives under the Governor. They aren't hardened, roll-up-your-sleeves types like Rick's group. They might be that they're more of a burden than a help in many ways.

You don't know everything that Michonne is doing when she's out. You don't know whether or not the gas stations are depleted for miles around. You don't know what truck stops/train yards/distribution centers there are in a close driving distance.

Personally, I'm okay with the overall level of versimilitude regarding their actions/non-actions. I'm a little less so in regards to another superbug, but we'll see where that goes. It might not be something that naturally occurred. And from a plot standpoint, I would have liked to be completely done with the Governor plotline, like in the comic. But perhaps it's more realistic that it's not neatly wrapped up and that he's lurking somewhere out there like some kind of beast in the woods.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
They die after the walkers bite them....and eat them.

I think it makes sense that there seem to be plenty of wild animals but not many farm animals and pets. Animals used to regular feedings may have died months ago, and those in fenced areas, barns, pens, etc. would be easier to corner when walkers came calling.

Indeed. Everything is easier said than done when a flaming zombie isn't trying to bite you in the face.

 Hulksmash wrote:
They kinda of explain why they don't use fire on the Talking Dead. Essentially it comes down to two reasons. One, lighting the forest on fire. No using fire after a good long rain storm might still be an option but that leaves issue number 2 which is a giant smoke cloud could attract humans. And while the group is fine letting them in in drips and drabs they haven't had the best luck with other large groups they have met.

As for the rats and the burned people I'm not convinced it's a traitor or someone working for the Gov. It's likely two different people and I wouldn't put it past some crazy in the prison. The bodies could have been the work of anybody since we don't really know the people who moved in. I highly doubt it's a member of the original group or Tyreese/Sasha.

Ahhh, I haven't watched it yet.