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I think the writers might have made their point -- that the group has been pushed to their absolute nadir -- and I'm not sure that hitting that same note for 5 more episodes will really accomplish much. After Aaron's arrival, I thought that (comic spoilers ahead)

In a way I see Aaron as a litmus test a possible safe haven might use with larger bands like this one. Basically meet with new groups that have potential, determine if they are to far gone, and then decide whether to take them to the safe zone. It's something I'd consider if you could find someone willing to do it.

Overall the episode had some good moments for me. Zombie cliff diving seemed an excellent way of handling them when exhausted and conserving ammo.

I liked showing them having to actually struggle regarding food and water. Something that might not have occurred to them (the group) is that the lack of supplies to salvage might indicate larger or longer lasting survival groups. It should make them more wary.

I was having trouble buying the completely worn down and exhausted thing from the cast. Daryl was about the only one who pulled it off and that's because Norman Reedus looks pretty rough at the best of time. They looked like marginally sweaty people walking down a road to me, not people on the razor edge of survival.

Is it me or Grimes' starting to look vaguely massianic/cult leaderish?

He looks like a leader you'd want to keep out of your place.

 Frazzled wrote:
Is it me or Grimes' starting to look vaguely massianic/cult leaderish?

He looks like a leader you'd want to keep out of your place.

Unless there's an even bigger threat,

I liked it. I like it when they reinforce how misearble their existence is. What a grind it is just to survive. That may seem weird or sadistic but there have been stretches of the show where I think they have inadvertedly made it look like the zombie apocalypse isn't that bad. Or they simply don't address issues like food and water which in real life would always be what you are thinking about all the time.

Unless you're a farmer in farm country.

 Frazzled wrote:
Unless you're a farmer in farm country.

...don't Farmers spend quite a bit of time thinking about obtaining food? Like from sunrise to sunset...

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I liked it. I like it when they reinforce how misearble their existence is. What a grind it is just to survive. That may seem weird or sadistic but there have been stretches of the show where I think they have inadvertedly made it look like the zombie apocalypse isn't that bad. Or they simply don't address issues like food and water which in real life would always be what you are thinking about all the time.

Bizarely did you notice how imaculate the houses were in the devestated enclave - apart for the odd bit of mess where there had been fights they were all spotless

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Unless you're a farmer in farm country.

...don't Farmers spend quite a bit of time thinking about obtaining food? Like from sunrise to sunset...

And farmers would be even more dependent on water. Not to mention the series and comics have addressed issues of staying in one place in the age of hordes of zombies and raiders.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Unless you're a farmer in farm country.

...don't Farmers spend quite a bit of time thinking about obtaining food? Like from sunrise to sunset...

Yea, bunch of slackers. I wish i saw the daylight before I had to go to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Unless you're a farmer in farm country.

...don't Farmers spend quite a bit of time thinking about obtaining food? Like from sunrise to sunset...

And farmers would be even more dependent on water. Not to mention the series and comics have addressed issues of staying in one place in the age of hordes of zombies and raiders.

Water would there. unless we're talking Central California of course.

Zombie horde comes. Get in truck. Drive to side of horde. Honk horn. Horde turns. Drive away. Done.
Woop da doop.

or Texas style, Zombie roundup! now with new prizes for most zombies, biggest zombie, smallest zombie, and the covetted smelliest zombie!

Two points

Is the actor of the new guy at the end, the kid from "that 70's show" as Eric?

Glane is korean and korean is sterotype for eating dogs.... They never show Glane eat the dog. I think TWD was avoiding this issue. My inside comic relief mind was wishing if only Daryl's racist brother was alive...the comment he would make would be funny.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I liked it. I like it when they reinforce how misearble their existence is. What a grind it is just to survive. That may seem weird or sadistic but there have been stretches of the show where I think they have inadvertedly made it look like the zombie apocalypse isn't that bad. Or they simply don't address issues like food and water which in real life would always be what you are thinking about all the time.

Bizarely did you notice how imaculate the houses were in the devestated enclave - apart for the odd bit of mess where there had been fights they were all spotless

Ya, basically if you watching the show and at anytime you think "Meh, Zombie Apocalypse not so bad" somebody done screwed up.

This seems to be one of the first time they've had to deal with the fact gasoline and working cars would not actually be everywhere!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Unless you're a farmer in farm country.

...don't Farmers spend quite a bit of time thinking about obtaining food? Like from sunrise to sunset...

Yea, bunch of slackers. I wish i saw the daylight before I had to go to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Unless you're a farmer in farm country.

...don't Farmers spend quite a bit of time thinking about obtaining food? Like from sunrise to sunset...

And farmers would be even more dependent on water. Not to mention the series and comics have addressed issues of staying in one place in the age of hordes of zombies and raiders.

Water would there. unless we're talking Central California of course.

Zombie horde comes. Get in truck. Drive to side of horde. Honk horn. Horde turns. Drive away. Done.
Woop da doop.

or Texas style, Zombie roundup! now with new prizes for most zombies, biggest zombie, smallest zombie, and the covetted smelliest zombie!

Oh, Zombie herding is catching on in the comic but it's done with horses not trucks. True Texan style!

 Bromsy wrote:
I was having trouble buying the completely worn down and exhausted thing from the cast. Daryl was about the only one who pulled it off and that's because Norman Reedus looks pretty rough at the best of time. They looked like marginally sweaty people walking down a road to me, not people on the razor edge of survival.

I saw a survival programme the other night. This guy was down to eating birds the size of a space marine centurion model and picking food out of bear poo because apparently bears have an inefficient digestive system. I guess the cameraman didn't eat anything.

If we're going to bring real life into things, I think it's important to note that the need for access to water and shelter would tend to make survivors stay put once they've found a good spot. The idea that safety is found on the move seems awfully daft. Or at least, I should say it seems daft in a world where the writers DON'T magically invent massive hoards of zombies in rural, remote locations at just the right moments to drive survivors from shelter.

Ultimately, it's a piece of character-focused fiction and not a documentary or "how-to" show. Everything exists only to drive and push these characters along. It doesn't seem intellectually honest to delve too deeply into survival tactics or science on a show that does things like introduce a spontaneous megaflu virus (that made ebola look like the common cold) that was cured by antibiotics.

 gorgon wrote:
If we're going to bring real life into things, I think it's important to note that the need for access to water and shelter would tend to make survivors stay put once they've found a good spot. The idea that safety is found on the move seems awfully daft. Or at least, I should say it seems daft in a world where the writers DON'T magically invent massive hoards of zombies in rural, remote locations at just the right moments to drive survivors from shelter.

Ultimately, it's a piece of character-focused fiction and not a documentary or "how-to" show. Everything exists only to drive and push these characters along. It doesn't seem intellectually honest to delve too deeply into survival tactics or science on a show that does things like introduce a spontaneous megaflu virus (that made ebola look like the common cold) that was cured by antibiotics.

They got the Prison remember? That got screwed because of the Governor and not zombies.

Almost every "good base" was destroyed by "bad" people. Noah's based... looks like some bad people attacked it. Hershel's farm was over run by walkers... but I would have secure that farm way better than that. What the hell, they got it good and they won't go find supplies like Home Depo and get wood to build fences or put wire around their home. Have their houses with bars on all windows and doors man.

Almost every time that their camp was "suddenly attacked by massive hordes of zombies magically appearing in remote rural locations", it was precipitated by something which actively drew the zombies to that location.

At the Atlanta camp, Glenn drove that sports car with the alarms blaring all the way from Atlanta to the camp. That probably drew huge numbers of walkers out of the city and sent them wandering off into the countryside. The small group that attacked the camp just stumbled across it at random.

At Hershel's farm, Carl found a walker trapped in mud, but he slipped and fell and his gun went off. That probably drew large numbers of walkers in the vicinity towards the woods on the outskirts of the farm. Then, when Shane attempted to kill Rick but Rick stabbed him first, Shane's gun went off and then Carl shot Shane to put his walker corpse down. Those two gunshots attracted the zombies in the woods to attack the farm.

At the Prison, the general noise and activity created by a large group living in one location, plus the frequent comings and goings of people going on supply runs would have attracted zombies on a regular basis. When the Governor and his 2nd army attacked, the huge noise created by their convoy of vehicles (they had a fething tank ) would have had big herds of walkers following them all the way from the camp to the Prison. The noise generated by the firefight would have drawn even more walkers in the vicinity to the Prison.

When Rick and co. are on the road, and a small herd is following them (which they fight at the bridge), its clear that they've been walking on the open road for a long time. If you're walking along a straight open road for a long time, any walkers in the woods that you pass might spot you and begin following you. Other walkers might spot those walkers and begin following them. And thus a herd begins to form.


Its not a case of large groups of walkers magically appearing at the most opportune (or inopportune) moments as a deus ex machina, its that there was something, some noisy event, that actively attracted those walkers to that location. Perhaps the real issue is not "Why do big herds of zombies keep magically appearing?" but "Why do zombies have such a powerful sense of hearing?"


The lesson is...practice noise discipline.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Almost every time that their camp was "suddenly attacked by massive hordes of zombies magically appearing in remote rural locations", it was precipitated by something which actively drew the zombies to that location.

At the Atlanta camp, Glenn drove that sports car with the alarms blaring all the way from Atlanta to the camp. That probably drew huge numbers of walkers out of the city and sent them wandering off into the countryside. The small group that attacked the camp just stumbled across it at random.

At Hershel's farm, Carl found a walker trapped in mud, but he slipped and fell and his gun went off. That probably drew large numbers of walkers in the vicinity towards the woods on the outskirts of the farm. Then, when Shane attempted to kill Rick but Rick stabbed him first, Shane's gun went off and then Carl shot Shane to put his walker corpse down. Those two gunshots attracted the zombies in the woods to attack the farm.

At the Prison, the general noise and activity created by a large group living in one location, plus the frequent comings and goings of people going on supply runs would have attracted zombies on a regular basis. When the Governor and his 2nd army attacked, the huge noise created by their convoy of vehicles (they had a fething tank ) would have had big herds of walkers following them all the way from the camp to the Prison. The noise generated by the firefight would have drawn even more walkers in the vicinity to the Prison.

When Rick and co. are on the road, and a small herd is following them (which they fight at the bridge), its clear that they've been walking on the open road for a long time. If you're walking along a straight open road for a long time, any walkers in the woods that you pass might spot you and begin following you. Other walkers might spot those walkers and begin following them. And thus a herd begins to form.


Its not a case of large groups of walkers magically appearing at the most opportune (or inopportune) moments as a deus ex machina, its that there was something, some noisy event, that actively attracted those walkers to that location. Perhaps the real issue is not "Why do big herds of zombies keep magically appearing?" but "Why do zombies have such a powerful sense of hearing?"


The lesson is...practice noise discipline.

You made an error about Hershel farm... it was the helicopter that attracted the heard. That made more sense. Remember the heard was so big it broke the wood fence.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Its not a case of large groups of walkers magically appearing at the most opportune (or inopportune) moments as a deus ex machina, its that there was something, some noisy event, that actively attracted those walkers to that location. Perhaps the real issue is not "Why do big herds of zombies keep magically appearing?" but "Why do zombies have such a powerful sense of hearing?"

I don't think it was made explicitly clear what drew the zombies in most of those instances -- you're just filling in blanks in an attempt to make sense of them. They've been involved in *plenty* of gunfire throughout the series, and not all of it has drawn large number of zombies.

And even if a gunshot drew the zombies, there are still obvious questions about their ability to home in accurately on noise over large distances, as you point out. It's difficult for a living human with non-rotted ears to accurately guess the direction of a single gunshot when they're not expecting it. And how much noise would the prison population have made even a mile or two away? They weren't operating heavy machinery.

Moving vehicles drawing large numbers also isn't an easy answer. Yes, Glenn may have drawn zombies into the countryside. But he wasn't a Pied Piper either, if you consider his speed and the likelihood that he made many turns along his route. Sure, back and forth movement from the prison may have drawn some. But it could also have pulled some AWAY, and by taking a circuitous route on the return path, one could have prevented zombies from making a beeline for the prison.

The point is -- it isn't a real world, and it's not a fictional world that holds up to a lot of scrutiny either. You have to suspend your disbelief and resist the urge to pull on the thread.

In most instances, the zombies weren't a deus ex machina, because they weren't a solution to a problem. You could probably make the case for them to be that at Terminus. They are, however, a plot device and not a true antagonist in the narrative in either medium.

In most instances, the zombies weren't a deus ex machina, because they weren't a solution to a problem.

An inverse deus ex machina then. You knew what I meant.

It's been years since the original outbreak. It makes sense that the large population centres of cities have wandered around.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Almost every time that their camp was "suddenly attacked by massive hordes of zombies magically appearing in remote rural locations", it was precipitated by something which actively drew the zombies to that location.


The lesson is...practice noise discipline.

It is, but most of the dead have been dead for a couple of years, you have to wonder how good their hearing is. Large groups of them will make a shuffling droning that would muffle other noises too and with the bulk of the dead in the cities, I would think that nearby ones would be attracted to the noises of the cities.
I also think that if activity were going to attract dead then Woodbury would have been overrun long ago, it managed to survive until contact with Rick so there can't have been that many in the local area to form hordes.
Wasn't the horde that overran the prison the one first seen on the road when the scout group ran into them while looking for medicine? They were already on the way to the prison at that point unless it was a different group that hit the prison.

Here's an issue they haven't addressed. How are the dead still able to wander around. After more than a week of exposure to the elements, any muscle tissue should be the consistency of beef jerky now and all soft tissue gone from microbe or fungal activity. Still, the zombies are mostly intact and fairly mobile despite this. No way natural or man-made bacteria or virus could pull this off.

 Breotan wrote:
Here's an issue they haven't addressed. How are the dead still able to wander around. After more than a week of exposure to the elements, any muscle tissue should be the consistency of beef jerky now and all soft tissue gone from microbe or fungal activity. Still, the zombies are mostly intact and fairly mobile despite this. No way natural or man-made bacteria or virus could pull this off.

We its a bit like - "how do Zombies even manage to bite through human skin given lack of muscles, rotting or missing teeth" - I guess you have to figure some kind of T-virus style enhancement that allows them to exist, continue and have enough strength to be dangerous?

Nanobites. Its not a virus. Its invaders from...Uranus!

Yeah. Somehow a rotting corpse has the bite strength of a xenomorph from Alien.....

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah. Somehow a rotting corpse has the bite strength of a xenomorph from Alien.....

indeed. Anyone wearing a motorcycle outfit, or probably just good coveralls would be invulnerable. As bite strength goes, we're strictly third rate, and thats when we're alive.

Unless they were driven by nanobites...from Uranus!

In the Zombie Survival guide it's because the zombie virus is also preventing bacteria and other microbes from decomposing the corpses. In TWD its just not explained but I like to pretend that's why.

Is Eugenes idea now completely defunct from a high level survival point of view?

(spoilers appreciated if so)