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 timetowaste85 wrote:
I actually had a $5 bet with a friend that Rick wouldn't survive Lori's death. I figured Daryl would have become team leader. I had been predicting Glenn and Maggie surviving til the end. I still think Rick would bite it before Glenn.

I have a lunch bet with my buddy that Daryl will die before Rick.

I believe that I will win that bet by the end of this season.

Having read the comics I think people will be surprised at Rick' s ability to adapt and return to more civilised ways. Don't write him off, he's no Governor.

And he's going to be around for a long, long time yet. I think they'll only kill him off when the actor wants to leave the show. And even then, given Ricks critical role in the comics, I think there's a strong possibility that they'll just recast him.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Having read the comics I think people will be surprised at Rick' s ability to adapt and return to more civilised ways. Don't write him off, he's no Governor.

And he's going to be around for a long, long time yet. I think they'll only kill him off when the actor wants to leave the show. And even then, given Ricks critical role in the comics, I think there's a strong possibility that they'll just recast him.

yeah, Rick is untouchable. Maybe the only true untouchable, although Carl is right there. The story is about Rick and his family.

However, the show -- much more so than the comics -- seems to feature Rick's changing mindset, IMO. First he's too warm, then too cold, then back to too warm again, etc. It's probably because they split his show character from the beginning and it's never really settled on a good middle ground. It was only late last season that they were suggesting that Rick had become somewhat unhinged, and we should expect some more exploration of that before he adapts more to his new surroundings.

Besides, actors do like to act, and unlike pencil and ink drawings they have to them some material to work with to keep them happy.

 pretre wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
And the time may come when they don't need Carol anymore, because killing isn't a civilized society's answer for everything.

Carol is still on my list of candidates to expire by season's end.

Considering the arcs still remaining in the comic, there is always a need for a killer.

But is Carol too much of a mess to adapt, should things settle down? It seems clear that doing all the "dirty work" has deeply affected her and perhaps even poisoned her for good. Remember that she would have left the group already if not for Daryl's intervention.

No one's going to be able to convince me that there wasn't some pretty heavy symbolism and suggestion going on with Carol wearing Wolf clothing and a "W" on her forehead. Then again, maybe we'll see some kind of redemption and healing on her part, since that does seem to be an ongoing theme. Perhaps Morgan the shepherd will have an influence on Carol the wolf.

Carol is a character that early on I had no problem with being lost from the group and not coming back (her name also disappeared from credits, in an earlier season). But now she's become such an important character that even with expecting her to die before Glenn or Maggie, I suspect she'll be kicking ass for a while yet. Maybe go out Bonnie and Clyde style with Daryl somewhere down the road. But that day seems a way off. I was surprised she survived even season 2. Now I'm very glad she has!

 Hulksmash wrote:


Also all of those "plot holes" mentioned earlier can have a fairly easy explanation.

Since it's fairly easy, please do tell.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Having read the comics I think people will be surprised at Rick' s ability to adapt and return to more civilised ways. Don't write him off, he's no Governor.

And he's going to be around for a long, long time yet. I think they'll only kill him off when the actor wants to leave the show. And even then, given Ricks critical role in the comics, I think there's a strong possibility that they'll just recast him.

I don;t know - several of the statements that Rick made before and after he became Ricktator of the Alexandria were things the Governor would have agreed with and / or said - it would be extremely easy for him to slip into that role without people like Glenn...........if Carl or his baby had beem killed by the Wolves - what woud have stopped him.

Imagine Rick, Carl, Carol and Daryl running the place on their own - would it be mugch different from the Governors way of doing things..............

I can;t seem him letting the Wolf live - they have set the precendent for what happens to muderers now - why would they not carry on the same way? Who is going to stick up for the captured Wolf - the Alexandrians whose friends and families have been chopped to pieces? The only one is Morgan and its his fault the whole thing happened.

Realistically they will simply find out what he knows, if there are more Wolves, where they are and then execute him - quickly and coldly - same as Carol did with the bound captive - sensible and effective. Thats their law now - you murder people - you die.

The Wolf will escape and cause more damage, kill more people. Maybe he opens the gate or breaches the walls, which is what allows the walker herd to overrun Alexandria.

I liked the last episode. Mainly because it made me see Morgan's point of view of not killing. By this time as viewers we all agree with the Carol's way of doing things. Just kill! Not killing these people is ridiculous. However, at least I can see why Morgan feels the way he does. He was basically one of these wolf guys but he came back, so he believes in redemption.

Of course his trying to do the right thing will result in a bunch of people getting killed. Can't let TWD ever get away from that.

DutchWinsAll wrote:


I mean the glaring holes in Eastman's character story. I can buy a doughy middle aged man being good at aikido. I can buy the pacifism. But the story? Rubbish.

No prisoner who escapes from jail, and slaughters a family, is going to be outside of solitary confinement for years, no matter how charming he is.

Then the timeline. He kills Creighton, feels bad, decides to turn himself in, only to find the apocalypse already in full swing. We already know that everyone is infected, so why didn't he see Creighton turn? Does starvation destroy the brain somehow?

He's only 30 miles (his words) from the Atlanta area and has had no large groups of walkers? With a goat bleating away all day?

And Eastman's death scene? Horrible horrible directing. Here's a guy who is apparently a zen master with a stick, a weapon with at least some range. Instead of attacking the single, lone zombie, or pulling Morgan back, he turns his back to it? WTF?

It's even worse than Glen missing the fire escape in the alley.

And lastly, how does a man stay that chubby on an all veg diet, with a garden with what, 10 plants total?

It seems like the writers think we are stupid, and you guys thought this was a good episode? At least Z Nation is fun.

Sure. Off the top of my head without much deeper thought

I should point out that even the actor stated that Eastman wasn't a "master" of Aikido. He's a middle aged white guy that started taking Aikido around 10 years ago and went to weekly classes. And then took quite a bit of time off to watch a man starve to death.

Work release, properly supervised, is something that regularly happens in the South where they still have a tendency to put some of their inmates into work programs. If the guy was already a murder and had managed to get to the point where he would be paroled then it's not unreasonable to assume he would be allowed to continue his "contrition" project. Add in we dont' know anything about the guy but my feeling would be there is more to him. The story from Eastman seems to indicate he may have had additional connections on top of that.

As far as seeing Creighton turn if you watched Fear the Walking Dead you'd hear the actual doctor stating that the time for reanimating is different for everyone. Sometimes seconds, sometimes hours. So it's not unreasonable that he got him buried before he turned.

30 Miles from the Atlanta area is an enormous amount of space. Especially if he's talking about the metro and not the city itself (i.e. all of the surrounding suburbs). The goat was a recent acquisition, he said so in the episode. A single dude not being loud fairly deep in the woods isn't to likely to have drawn a crown. Especially when a place like Terminus or the Governors homes weren't. Add in the goat only seems to bleet loudly when it's about to be attacked and it's not as stupid as you make it out to be.

As for the tackle instead of hitting the zombie with a stick if you watch Eastman when dealing with zombies in the episode they are always sweeping strikes. Not something you can do coming behind a guy when trying to stop a zombie. In general the dude has been dealing with single zombies by himself since the apocalypse. It's not hard to put his actions down to a lack of "maturity" in the current world. Basically he reacts on instinct and protects his friend with his body.

As for his weight it's shown he loves chocolate. He doesn't live just off the garden. He's done more than his bit of scavenging for supplies. Not to mention he'd stocked that place to watch a man die and not leave it. Have you never seen a chubby vegetarian? Because I've seen a ton. Granted I will say this was one that I was a bit miffed at. But asking an excellent actor to lose 20lbs for a single episode seems a little silly. Which is probably why they mention his love of chocolate as a bit of hand waving.

Overall it was a good episode. If you go in looking for issues or as a survival expert you're going to see issues. Like every episode of Walking Dead in general. That said it's not nearly as "stupid" or poorly directed as you seem to feel like it is. But you can feel that way, it's your opinion

 Hulksmash wrote:
As for the tackle instead of hitting the zombie with a stick if you watch Eastman when dealing with zombies in the episode they are always sweeping strikes. Not something you can do coming behind a guy when trying to stop a zombie. In general the dude has been dealing with single zombies by himself since the apocalypse. It's not hard to put his actions down to a lack of "maturity" in the current world. Basically he reacts on instinct and protects his friend with his body.

I'm sorry, I just find it bizarre that people harp on show moments like this that are actually fairly realistic depictions of people in sudden, scary, and highly stressful situations.

Too many video games?

I guess we had to have a boring episode this season to catch us up on why Morgan suddenly reappeared as a pansy ninja, but we had the slow episode, back to the action. Do we know if Vegas has a pool going on whether Glenn died or not?

 Hulksmash wrote:


Sure. Off the top of my head without much deeper thought

I should point out that even the actor stated that Eastman wasn't a "master" of Aikido. He's a middle aged white guy that started taking Aikido around 10 years ago and went to weekly classes. And then took quite a bit of time off to watch a man starve to death.

Work release, properly supervised, is something that regularly happens in the South where they still have a tendency to put some of their inmates into work programs. If the guy was already a murder and had managed to get to the point where he would be paroled then it's not unreasonable to assume he would be allowed to continue his "contrition" project. Add in we don't know anything about the guy but my feeling would be there is more to him. The story from Eastman seems to indicate he may have had additional connections on top of that.

No, they don't. The South is known for being tougher on criminals, not lighter. He broke out of prison, and murdered an entire family. Remember the uproar in NY a few months ago? That guy isn't seeing the outside of solitary for a long, long time, and he didn't do much beside rob a few empty cabins on the outside. There is no feasible way a multiple murderer escaped from prison is getting sent right back to his prior area. You can get months of solitary for hiding a lighter in your mattress, let alone multiple 1st degree murders.

 Hulksmash wrote:


As far as seeing Creighton turn if you watched Fear the Walking Dead you'd hear the actual doctor stating that the time for reanimating is different for everyone. Sometimes seconds, sometimes hours. So it's not unreasonable that he got him buried before he turned.

Would you immediately bury the man you just spent almost 2 months torturing to death? If so, those graves look to be 3-4 feet of loose-packed soil. Creighton should still be an active zombie, relentless, tireless, able to pop out of that. They do kind of hibernate after long periods, but this would be a fresh turn.

 Hulksmash wrote:


30 Miles from the Atlanta area is an enormous amount of space. Especially if he's talking about the metro and not the city itself (i.e. all of the surrounding suburbs). The goat was a recent acquisition, he said so in the episode. A single dude not being loud fairly deep in the woods isn't to likely to have drawn a crown. Especially when a place like Terminus or the Governors homes weren't. Add in the goat only seems to bleet loudly when it's about to be attacked and it's not as stupid as you make it out to be.

You've apparently never been around a goat. They are noisy creatures. Cool creatures with sweet eyes, but noisy.

 Hulksmash wrote:


As for the tackle instead of hitting the zombie with a stick if you watch Eastman when dealing with zombies in the episode they are always sweeping strikes. Not something you can do coming behind a guy when trying to stop a zombie. In general the dude has been dealing with single zombies by himself since the apocalypse. It's not hard to put his actions down to a lack of "maturity" in the current world. Basically he reacts on instinct and protects his friend with his body.

It's over a year in, and as you allude to later, he's been scavenging a lot. Plus his journey to get the drywall, he should be a little bit more pragmatic to protect this man who, a few days ago, was actively trying to kill him multiple times.

 Hulksmash wrote:


As for his weight it's shown he loves chocolate. He doesn't live just off the garden. He's done more than his bit of scavenging for supplies. Not to mention he'd stocked that place to watch a man die and not leave it. Have you never seen a chubby vegetarian? Because I've seen a ton. Granted I will say this was one that I was a bit miffed at. But asking an excellent actor to lose 20lbs for a single episode seems a little silly. Which is probably why they mention his love of chocolate as a bit of hand waving.

Overall it was a good episode. If you go in looking for issues or as a survival expert you're going to see issues. Like every episode of Walking Dead in general. That said it's not nearly as "stupid" or poorly directed as you seem to feel like it is. But you can feel that way, it's your opinion

If he's that close to an area where he can scavenge that much easily, he should be dealing with more zombies. At least more than ~12 graves shown. I don't view these as survival expert type problems, more basic human survival type problems. Hence why I think it's sloppy writing.

I think both Morgan and Eastman were acted incredibly well, I just thing the writing is sub-par and uninspired. Gimple is no Darabont IMO. I did enjoy our debate though, very much. Thank you for the reasonable and well thought-out responses. Cheers.

Col. Dash wrote:
I guess we had to have a boring episode this season to catch us up on why Morgan suddenly reappeared as a pansy ninja, but we had the slow episode, back to the action. Do we know if Vegas has a pool going on whether Glenn died or not?

He is dead for sure I think.

Mainly because the situation was totally hopeless, showed how glenn being a moral compass actually led to his death, and the super sad music during his death. Its also a pretty important part of maggies arc for glenn to die.

Ill miss him.

Or youknow, Jesus turns up...

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Or youknow, Jesus turns up...

Haha yeah, maybe! Its technically possible that what we saw was the other guy getting eaten on top of glenn rather then him.

I dont think so but I would be pleasantly surprised if this were the case.

 easysauce wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Or youknow, Jesus turns up...

Haha yeah, maybe! Its technically possible that what we saw was the other guy getting eaten on top of glenn rather then him.

I dont think so but I would be pleasantly surprised if this were the case.

Of course it was Nicholas. It was pretty clear that he fell on top of Glenn. Glenn is still fethed however - what happens when they chew right through Nicholas' corpse and keep going? And whats to stop them eating Glenn's face? Theres no way he can possibly get out of this without some outside intervention. Divine intervention.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Or youknow, Jesus turns up...

Haha yeah, maybe! Its technically possible that what we saw was the other guy getting eaten on top of glenn rather then him.

I dont think so but I would be pleasantly surprised if this were the case.

Of course it was Nicholas. It was pretty clear that he fell on top of Glenn. Glenn is still fethed however - what happens when they chew right through Nicholas' corpse and keep going? And whats to stop them eating Glenn's face? Theres no way he can possibly get out of this without some outside intervention. Divine intervention.

divine intervention, or what I'd call final proof rick is still in a coma after being shot and this is just his dream world

I'm sure if they feel like it the zombies will take their sweet time eating Nicholas so that Glenn can be saved. If Jesus is in the wings he can throw a flare or something to distract the zombies and save Glenn with no issue. Not to say that Glenn has plot armour (looking at you Andrea), but well, I'd hate to think he'd be gone from the show just yet. ...Though they're moving onto Maggie's plotline a lot quicker than they did in the comics, so maybe she'll be getting dragged into her work sooner rather than later.

Yeah... Glenn is popular but there are so many reasons to kill him off...

odd as it may sound, the super sad "omg he is dead" music playing when glen "died" makes me think he really is gone.

at least for a few episodes

I don't see why Maggie can't continue on her path regardless.

Did you really compare Glenn to Andrea?! Really?? Glenn is 1000x better as a character. What's next? Somebody claiming Glenn is only as good as Shane? Or Lori? Hell, he's better than Carl.

Book Andrea is cool as gak. *shrug* Dunno why show Andrea was so horrible.

Because the actress was boring, most likely.

 gorgon wrote:
Book Andrea is cool as gak. *shrug* Dunno why show Andrea was so horrible.

Agreed - totally different characters - guess it was a writers choice.........

IIRC Andrea was supposed to survive in the Tv Series. For some reason the guys in charge made a last minute decision to kill her off however. Last minute as in changing the script just before the scene was supposed to be shot...

Given her character arc in the show though, she wouldn't have turned out like the comic version, so its not a major loss. If anything she could have wound up taking Lilly Caul's place as leader of Woodbury (the tv version of Lilly died right?). ...Had they also not decided to have all the Woodbury folks die and the Governor burn the place down (guess they didn't want the whole post-prison Woodbury plotline).

 Wyrmalla wrote:
IIRC Andrea was supposed to survive in the Tv Series. For some reason the guys in charge made a last minute decision to kill her off however. Last minute as in changing the script just before the scene was supposed to be shot...

Given her character arc in the show though, she wouldn't have turned out like the comic version, so its not a major loss. If anything she could have wound up taking Lilly Caul's place as leader of Woodbury (the tv version of Lilly died right?). ...Had they also not decided to have all the Woodbury folks die and the Governor burn the place down (guess they didn't want the whole post-prison Woodbury plotline).

She wasn't hugely popular in the show I think and they needed to kill some more cast people I guess - Tv Andrea as Lily could have been interesting having enjoyed the novels about Lily + co. Need to catch up on the newer ones

The prison set was I imagine alot easier to run that using homes - and the Woodbury survivors provided disease fodder.................

The Prison in the first half of Season 4 was a proxy of sorts for post-"battle at the Prison" Woodbury.

In the comics RIck and co. never invited such a large group of people in. The first assault on the Prison was successful, and RIck and co. were driven out.

The show dragged the Prison arc out by having the first assault fail and the Governor went on the run whilst the Prison became a larger community. The second assault on the Prison is when the show re-converged with the comics (the Governor even had a tank the second time around, like in the comics).

(comic talk only in spoiler tags) as presumably, many haven't read them, might read them, etc.

I've actually spoiled a bit for myself about the comics, but I still REALLY want them as a Christmas present this year! Like the two big omnibuses. Has the series ended? Or is it still going?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The Prison in the first half of Season 4 was a proxy of sorts for post-"battle at the Prison" Woodbury.

In the comics RIck and co. never invited such a large group of people in. The first assault on the Prison was successful, and RIck and co. were driven out.

The show dragged the Prison arc out by having the first assault fail and the Governor went on the run whilst the Prison became a larger community. The second assault on the Prison is when the show re-converged with the comics (the Governor even had a tank the second time around, like in the comics).

Yeah I know

I found the Governor's bit much more interesting in that season - the prison gave the writters a place where they could make it all uncomfortable and fall apart due to horrible living coniditons, disease etc- more difficult if the players are all living in nice suburben houses.. .... Another reason i can't see Alexandria surviving in the show - the viewers want to see an appocalyptic show not a rebuilding society? Or do they? Might also be harder to sell to the execs:

Option 1 lots of violence and zombies
Option 2 - rebuilding civilisation.

I've actually spoiled a bit for myself about the comics, but I still REALLY want them as a Christmas present this year! Like the two big omnibuses. Has the series ended? Or is it still going?

Still going strong - but obviously further along than the show as its being going much longer....lots of differences - in tone, themes and characters