Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, if it goes close to the comics then




All of this will lead to the introduction

I think they're definitely gonna do a cop out again ala Merle.

I love that I know how it went in the books, but don't really know how it'll all go down on the show.

They're clearly setting up something similar to the books, though. They made a point to show

 gorgon wrote:
I love that I know how it went in the books, but don't really know how it'll all go down on the show.

They're clearly setting up something similar to the books, though. They made a point to show

Spoiler:

them holding hands, and that Rick has a hatchet with him. Someone who won't let go is gonna lose an appendage. If it's Jessie (I'm not 100% convinced that it will be), then yeah...lots of water cooler talk over that one, like I said.

And yeah, it's such a great time in the story. I've been telling friends who haven't read the books that although there's a lot of short-term insanity going on in the show right now, they're on the cusp of a whole new phase of the story.

Agreed!

I find myself enjoying the show MORE knowing that they'll be doing things differently than in the comics.

And for the most part, I usually end up enjoying where the show takes us more - but I do miss Comic Book Andrea - she's awesome!

 Alpharius wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I love that I know how it went in the books, but don't really know how it'll all go down on the show.

They're clearly setting up something similar to the books, though. They made a point to show

Spoiler:

them holding hands, and that Rick has a hatchet with him. Someone who won't let go is gonna lose an appendage. If it's Jessie (I'm not 100% convinced that it will be), then yeah...lots of water cooler talk over that one, like I said.

And yeah, it's such a great time in the story. I've been telling friends who haven't read the books that although there's a lot of short-term insanity going on in the show right now, they're on the cusp of a whole new phase of the story.

Agreed!

I find myself enjoying the show MORE knowing that they'll be doing things differently than in the comics.

And for the most part, I usually end up enjoying where the show takes us more - but I do miss Comic Book Andrea - she's awesome!

That's what has me thinking that the walk won't go down exactly as in the books.

@Alph and @gorgon...

I'm going to spoiler my question as it's probably book/comic related:

 whembly wrote:
@Alph and @gorgon...

I'm going to spoiler my question as it's probably book/comic related:

Spoiler:

So based on what we just saw in the finale, where Rick's group is just exiting the house in a daisy-chain, that Jessie's youngest son is going to freak out, thus attracting the munching mob?

That Jessie won't let go of her son... forcing Rick to lop off her hand to save her and the rest of the group?

That'd be one hella water-cooler talk for sure...

Is that how it goes down in the book?

More like

 gorgon wrote:

 whembly wrote:
@Alph and @gorgon...

I'm going to spoiler my question as it's probably book/comic related:

Spoiler:

So based on what we just saw in the finale, where Rick's group is just exiting the house in a daisy-chain, that Jessie's youngest son is going to freak out, thus attracting the munching mob?

That Jessie won't let go of her son... forcing Rick to lop off her hand to save her and the rest of the group?

That'd be one hella water-cooler talk for sure...

Is that how it goes down in the book?

More like

Spoiler:

He lops off her hand (holding Carl's) so that Carl can get free, leaving her to be devoured by walkers. Granted, she's bitten and therefore dead already.

How do ya like them apples?

Ouch! That I'd expect from Rick.

Disturbing Plot twist:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Best part of the episode was Deanna fighting to the death. Hands down.

Deanna was so much better than her comic book counterpart.

^I'd be cool with what SCE suggests!!

That really would make her the show equivalent of Andrea, completing her transition into a hardened survivor.

Deanna definitely had one of the strongest parts in this episode.

As for Jessie taking over comic-book Andrea's role, isn't her role already spread out among several different warrior female types already with Carol, Sasha, and Rosita? Plus whoever else. I'm not sure they'll make her into another, unless there's a culling somewhere else.

Well I think Carol's days are numbered.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Deanna definitely had one of the strongest parts in this episode.

As for Jessie taking over comic-book Andrea's role, isn't her role already spread out among several different warrior female types already with Carol, Sasha, and Rosita? Plus whoever else. I'm not sure they'll make her into another, unless there's a culling somewhere else.

Not really. Show Rosita is pretty much book Rosita. Both Carol and Sasha have picked up sniper material, but Carol only once, and Sasha gets material from different places, including (apparently) Holly. And to get to the point...none of them are Rick's girlfriend, or figure to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Well I think Carol's days are numbered.

Spoiler:

Although concussion might have been a factor, she was barely holding it together and was having a meltdown. I think she'll end up committing suicide like she did in the comics. In the comics she never became the strong character that she did in the show, but all the things shes done and experienced are clearly weighing on her psyche now. She will see or find out out what happens to Sam (NOM NOM NOM) and the last straw will be when she finds the picture he drew of himself tied to a tree being attacked by walkers...which is what she threatened to do to him.

Realizing the role she played in traumatizing him (which contributed to his death) will break her.

That might be a good call. It's easy to forget that Carol was ready to go off on her own (and die?) when they were all at Gabriel's church.

Want to point out Subject A was on second floor firing parallel down the hallway
Group B was on 1st floor heading out the door.

Direction. Subject A was firing North while Group B was heading out the door South. (Cardinal Direction given as an Example)

The stupid fight that Carol and Morgan had that allowed the Wolf guy to get the knife is not even what bothered me so much about the scene...while ultimately the behavior of both Carol and Morgan in that situation was idiotic, it still followed the fundamental rules that have been presented about those characters. Morgan has been shown to make stupid decisions in his quest to enforce his dogma and Carol, although usually shrewd, could easily be affected by the pressure of the zombie breech and the head trauma into making a questionable decision to escalate the situation.

No, what was really stupid/unbelievable was how the Wolf guy obtained the guns. It was shown and clearly known by all the characters that the Wolves have absolutely no regard for the lives of anyone outside their group and that they *gleefully* kill people. So giving the Wolf guy their guns should have been an absolute impossibility because those characters should have believed that the second he got their guns he would shoot them all...and given how the show has portrayed the Wolves, that's exactly what he should have done. The fact that he didn't shoot them all and just take the hostage he needs to throw to the walkers does not make consistent sense with what had been previously shown.

There's some other stupid stuff about that whole scenario, like Morgan even considering leaving the medic chick alone with the Wolf guy, when the only way he was restrained was around his wrists (like he couldn't attack and kill her with his wrists bound?), but having them give him their guns was just mind-blowing stupid and inconsistent....and pointless. They easily could have had the same scene of him escaping without those 3 dopes walking in to give him their guns.

I can't tell if this season really is so bad as I think, or if my admittedly rampant zombie fanboyism led me to overlook major parts of the other seasons.

I will still watch the show religiously, even Fear the Walking Dead, which was pretty bad overall, because, well, zombies. But so far, this season has been plot hole after terrible directing after terrible characterization all season. I really hope that Negan can help change things, or that Gimple leaves the show.

I fully understand you need to have suspension of disbelief in a show about zombies, but not every character needs to be a fething helpless idiot. How many women have fallen running trope from zombies in this season so far? The leg girl in ep 3, 2 in this last episode alone; it's just tiring. This isn't at the outbreak, we're almost if not more than 2 years in. Survivors wouldn't keep making these types of mistakes. Or else they wouldn't be survivors.

I'd like to just touch on how horribly directed and shamelessly written the whole Glen debacle was.

-They fall off the dumpster, head and upper body away, As bodies would fall in such a scenario. The next scene shows Glen's head clearly pointed towards the dumpster.

-Next, dozens of zombies apparently can only attack Nicholas. Fine. But they show zombies literally reaching over Glen to attack Nick. Whatever, they're Z's.

-So he shimmies under the dumpster, the easy, poorly written out that many fans guessed right away. Somehow 150+ lbs of Nick's dead weight, plus a dozen+ Z's weight pushing down, doesn't stop him from quickly getting away. Have a friend lay on top of you, see how fast you can move on your back. Just one, let alone 12+.

-Glen kills a few, blocks off the dumpster. Cool so far, they don't know how to move an object to get what they want. But a few hours later and all the Z's are gone? One night and they all leave a kill and the smell of fresh meat in a one way out alley because....?

- Of course Enid is on the roof of the exact building behind where Glen is hiding from a horde of zombies because plot. Fine, most survivors on their own usually go towards large masses of zombies because plot. But was it supposed to be suspenseful when she pulled a gun on him?

-Not really gonna touch on the shameless ploy of pulling Yuen's name from the credits. While cheesy as hell, I'm sure it's been done before and is standard in TV nowadays. If not, it's just even cheesier.


I still love the Walking Dead, and I'm not asking for a survivor's guide to the ZA in it, but at least have some fething rational characters.


Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know why Hollywood seems to be missing the survival-horror-drama aspect of zombie lore that WD has clearly shown to have a market for? I mean we've had a plethora of zombie-comedies, which are great also, but really nothing in the actual horror genre since Rodriguez's 2004 Dawn of the Dead remake.

Well besides the cinematic abortion that was World War Z. Seems like they are missing out on huge chunks of money. People love zombies because while supernatural, they represent a fear of other, normal humans. The true barbarity of man type of thing. At least IMO.

 yakface wrote:

The stupid fight that Carol and Morgan had that allowed the Wolf guy to get the knife is not even what bothered me so much about the scene...while ultimately the behavior of both Carol and Morgan in that situation was idiotic, it still followed the fundamental rules that have been presented about those characters. Morgan has been shown to make stupid decisions in his quest to enforce his dogma and Carol, although usually shrewd, could easily be affected by the pressure of the zombie breech and the head trauma into making a questionable decision to escalate the situation.

No, what was really stupid/unbelievable was how the Wolf guy obtained the guns. It was shown and clearly known by all the characters that the Wolves have absolutely no regard for the lives of anyone outside their group and that they *gleefully* kill people. So giving the Wolf guy their guns should have been an absolute impossibility because those characters should have believed that the second he got their guns he would shoot them all...and given how the show has portrayed the Wolves, that's exactly what he should have done. The fact that he didn't shoot them all and just take the hostage he needs to throw to the walkers does not make consistent sense with what had been previously shown.

There's some other stupid stuff about that whole scenario, like Morgan even considering leaving the medic chick alone with the Wolf guy, when the only way he was restrained was around his wrists (like he couldn't attack and kill her with his wrists bound?), but having them give him their guns was just mind-blowing stupid and inconsistent....and pointless. They easily could have had the same scene of him escaping without those 3 dopes walking in to give him their guns.

Agreed - again some good moments as they continued to work through the non-main cast.

The whole wolf scene was just bad - very bad - for all the reasons above........

Note however, that the Wolves seem to avoid the use of firearms. We know that they have a code -- some kind of civilization-is-dead, nature-is-taking-back-what's-hers thing.

So while the threat of the gun helped him escape, perhaps it's against his beliefs to use that particular bit of technology to kill the others in the room.

There are possibilities to consider before one jumps straight to "this writing is horribad!"

 gorgon wrote:
Note however, that the Wolves seem to avoid the use of firearms. We know that they have a code -- some kind of civilization-is-dead, nature-is-taking-back-what's-hers thing.

So while the threat of the gun helped him escape, perhaps it's against his beliefs to use that particular bit of technology to kill the others in the room.

There are possibilities to consider before one jumps straight to "this writing is horribad!"

They don't use guns because they haven't had ammo. The other leader was certainly fine taking shots at Rick in the RV.

Honestly as good as these people have gotten with head shots and the fact that a convulsion wouldn't have caused a gun to go off I'm shocked they didn't just put a bullet in his head and end it. That would have been appropriate and redeemed the scene.

I get showing Carol having a breakdown and confusion. I think it's a good thing to show she isn't 100% certain in all she does. It makes her a stronger character. But the towns only "doctor" being left in a room alone with a dude who's a thru and thru killer who's only bound at his hands (and oddly not his feet) was just ridiculous. It was just a poor scene that hurt an otherwise solid episode.

Or maybe they're deliberately reinforcing the idea that Morgan is an idiot.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Or maybe they're deliberately reinforcing the idea that Morgan is an idiot.

Hasn't that been hammered home enough

We were watching the show between episodes of Vikings Season 3 - damn thats an awesome show...............

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Or maybe they're deliberately reinforcing the idea that Morgan is an idiot.

Hasn't that been hammered home enough

We were watching the show between episodes of Vikings Season 3 - damn thats an awesome show...............

He's not an idiot though, he's a man with moral conviction. Morgan was a wolf himself, killing everyone he came across, and he's now the moral compass of the group. And we know how that works out in the show. I'm thinking morgans actions will show rick it's still possible to be humane which leads to (if they follow the comic)

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Or maybe they're deliberately reinforcing the idea that Morgan is an idiot.

Hasn't that been hammered home enough

We were watching the show between episodes of Vikings Season 3 - damn thats an awesome show...............

He's not an idiot though, he's a man with moral conviction. Morgan was a wolf himself, killing everyone he came across, and he's now the moral compass of the group. And we know how that works out in the show. I'm thinking morgans actions will show rick it's still possible to be humane which leads to (if they follow the comic)

Spoiler:

rick letting negan live and keeping him in jail instead of just killing him

Morgan has just potentially got the only person with medical skills thrown to the walkers - I don't think Rick will be thanking him! Banishing maybe if he is lucky.

Sorry but I think he is an idiot - a selfish one who values his convictions more than others lives - this can be seen clearly in that:
He has repeatedly got other people killed through his choices - so much so that he is now concealing highly dangerous psycho killers from everyone else in the vain hope he can brainwash them.
He nearly got Rick killed by letting Wolves armed with stolen guns escape when he could have stopped them.
He was more interested in tying captured wolves up than stopping other wolves hacking up other women and children.

I do not feel he is not a moral compass but he is a driven fanatic - which is fair enough but he is now so focussed on his beliefs that are keeping him "sane" that he will threaten, injure and put at risk others in his group.

Carl was much more interesting to me in how he is evolving - but again he would put down the wolf.

I rarely agree with Morden but I do in this case. He's not a moral compass. He's a selfish fanatic.

Carl and Glenn are far closer to moral compasses than Morgan has ever been.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I rarely agree with Morden but I do in this case. He's not a moral compass. He's a selfish fanatic.

Carl and Glenn are far closer to moral compasses than Morgan has ever been.

In fact many of the main cast have been acting in this role this season - Micholine has called out Rick several times and even the doomed Alexandrians have done so effectively, usually just before they die.

He only has one tennet of faith - never kill - whatever harm that might cause you and yours.

Just to inject a little clarity here -- Morgan isn't dangerous because he's unwilling to kill. They aren't a warband on the road anymore. They're a community, and not everyone in the community needs to be a killer. Jailing the Wolf wasn't even particularly dangerous, as the location seemed secure enough. How he put them all at risk was by not telling everyone about the Wolf's existence.

And it's important to note that although the Wolf's presence was on Morgan, it was Carol's careless and selfish action that led to the Wolf's escape. It's almost like neither of them are right, and that some kind of middle ground should be the path forward.

As sirlynchmob pointed out, they are laying some important seeds here regarding the need to kill. In fact, right now the comic is dealing with the repercussions of a decision made by Rick down the road quite a ways from the show. And it remains to be seen if that decision was a wise one or not, although I have my suspicions.

Y'know, now that I think about it, it occurs to me that

Morgan is dangerous because he is a fanatic with only one tennet of his faith - thou shall not kill - nothing or no one else matters

He is like all fanatics - he is right -- full stop - he can not be argued with because his grip on sanity depends now on this one idea and people are dying because of him - and that may well break him again.

The community rules are currently as laid down by rick (as law enforcer) and the soon to be dead leader of the community - if you are a killer - you die - thats their law - right or wrong thats what they have decided.

The problem with not being prepared to kill in the situation they find themselves is that someone else has to do it for you - thats the horribly selfish part of his delusion.

The show copped badly out by having the wolf escapee not gun down people as a consequence. i hope they do not cop out further..............

No, that's a distortion to suit your argument. Morgan's belief is that all life is precious -- quite the opposite of "nothing else matters". Clearly he will take action to protect others, including incapacitating and jailing enemies. It's just that killing isn't on his menu.

And how many deaths do we actually have as a result of Morgan's actions? Yes, letting those Wolves almost had repercussions (although note that they did LEAVE Alexandria, and had Rick not been in that particular spot it likely would have been the last they saw of them). And the loose Wolf might yet have repercussions, although it was Carol's inability to table the matter that led to his release. But there are always repercussions, even when (especially when?) you kill. In the comic...

He disarmed the wolves who later killed various people in Alexandria - left them in the car - everyone who was killed by them or their friends who are likely to have followed him after being humiliated - thats on him and anyone else they killed because he let them go -even knowing what they were. Humilating psycho killers is a bad idea - it just provokes them.

They then found the photos in the bag and Alexandria. They came with all their psycho friends and hacked up men, women and children - the now dead people who he did not warn about the wolves - cos "reasons".

People were still being slaughtered when he tried to caputure the one wolf - people who he might have been able to save.

He let the wolves escape with firearms - and we saw the result of that - luckily no one died - but they could have - again thats all on him - as he was called out on.

Morgan is still massively damaged - and yes his belief in the sancty of life is the only thread that is keeping him going - hence he is prepared to risk the lives of everyone - if the trainee doctor woman dies - thats on him (and Carol) - but it wouldn't have been a problem if he had

1) Killed the raving psycho
2) Handed him over the town - the nearest they have to authorities

Like I said the IMO show coped out on the escaping wolf no blasting everyone once he got the guns.

re not killing - how did that work out for all the nice non-main cast Alexandrians/ former residents of the Giovernors town?

re the comic and killing: