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 Sinful Hero wrote:
I don't think a gender swap would be detrimental to Negan- it was the character's actions and personality that defined him, not his gender.

Either way, as you mentioned that role has already been cast.

What I'm more curious about is how the Wolves apparently operated in Negan's territory without consequence. Especially such a large group.

Happy with a male or female Negan As long as the character is done right - and crossed fingers it translates from comic to TV which is not a given.

Maybe the Wolves are run by the Saviours - have a bunch of mad fethers running about that you have to protect people from........

Anyway at least its all interesting at the moment

Not sure why people are still fixated on the Wolves. They attacked, were dealt with, and died. They weren't a particularly large group or a particularly large threat to a well-defended community. Their comics analog was the Scavengers, which was similarly a small group that was quickly dispatched.

 gorgon wrote:
Not sure why people are still fixated on the Wolves. They attacked, were dealt with, and died. They weren't a particularly large group or a particularly large threat to a well-defended community. Their comics analog was the Scavengers, which was similarly a small group that was quickly dispatched.

Yes. In the the comics, literally their only significance was to draw the herd to Alexandria. They didn't actually kill anyone at all, unlike the show.

They are NOT this Season's main antagonist - that will be the Saviours. The Wolves are all dead and gone.

I kinda liked the Wolves. Although mainly because they're still largely an enigma for me. Why the pseudo zombie worship: marking heads with a 'W', feeding people to zombies, turning people into zombies, zombie traps, etc. The survival of the fittest culture. Their mysteriousness makes them an interesting foe, although delving deeper into it could ruin their appeal(at least for me).

Loved the whole "I'm Spartacus!" thing they have going with Negan. Maybe even the Hilltop doesn't know who Negan really is.

Somehow the last episode felt like an even darker turn for the group. I'm not sure the gang are really the good guys anymore. The TV show has really totally diverged from the comic. Feels like I'm watching one of those alternate universe Justice Leagues that takes over the world or something.

Yeah, the "I am Negan" thing is a neat angle. It seems like the Hilltop group may not know who Negan is after all.

"Same Boat" has convinced me that the safest characters are those captured and tied up. Worked for Morgan, the Wolf, Jesus, Carol and Maggie, etc.

Also "Meet us on the killing floor" was an awesome line.

Why are they not "good guys"? Because they proactively eliminate threats? Should they have walked up to them and said "Hai guys let's be friends!"? Don't forget that Negan and crew usually kill someone to introduce themselves and beat a 16 year old to death in front of the Hilltop group to make a point. The last episode made it pretty clear Paula wasn't going to trade Maggie and Carol back and would kill the Alexandria group at the first opportunity.

Let's put it this way, in the reality of the show, would you want to run into Rick and crew? They generally don't kill for sport and try to take people in where they can, after all. Or one of the other groups? Good is a relative term.

 jmurph wrote:
Yeah, the "I am Negan" thing is a neat angle. It seems like the Hilltop group may not know who Negan is after all.

"Same Boat" has convinced me that the safest characters are those captured and tied up. Worked for Morgan, the Wolf, Jesus, Carol and Maggie, etc.

Also "Meet us on the killing floor" was an awesome line.

Why are they not "good guys"? Because they proactively eliminate threats? Should they have walked up to them and said "Hai guys let's be friends!"? Don't forget that Negan and crew usually kill someone to introduce themselves and beat a 16 year old to death in front of the Hilltop group to make a point. The last episode made it pretty clear Paula wasn't going to trade Maggie and Carol back and would kill the Alexandria group at the first opportunity.

Let's put it this way, in the reality of the show, would you want to run into Rick and crew? They generally don't kill for sport and try to take people in where they can, after all. Or one of the other groups? Good is a relative term.

Well, where I come from, "good guys" don't traditionally launch sneak attacks to murder people in their sleep. Those particular Saviors hadn't even done anything to cross Rick and company. There's really nothing redeeming about their actions in this case, even on a relative scale.

Having said that, Rick and crew are the protagonists of the show, and so they're certainly the "best" guys that we're going to get. Part of this turn to darkness and bad*ssery though is to



So, on the character death pool front...



Oh...I thought it was a strong episode. Reminded me of a stage play, with the limited cast and set. The two Saviors were interesting mirror images of Carol and Maggie.

Watching tonight but

Well, where I come from, "good guys" don't traditionally launch sneak attacks to murder people in their sleep. Those particular Saviors hadn't even done anything to cross Rick and company. There's really nothing redeeming about their actions in this case, even on a relative scale.

Isn't that exactly what special forces troops do? I have no problem with it - they were just (orky style)and getting their retaliation in first

Also the Saviours previously tried to kidnap and rob Abraham and co and then were about to kill them in cold blood - so technically they started it - even more previously shooting up their vehicle.

You're forgetting that these Saviours that Rick orchestrated a surprise attack on were a part of a much larger group, several members of whom had already attacked members of Ricks group.

The Saviours initiated hostilities, not Rick, and then Rick learned that the Saviours have a reputation for terrorizing communities. They were already enemies at this point, even if the rest of the Saviours did not yet know who killed their bikers.

Rick was simply being proactive in eliminating a known hostioe threat.

Its like Terminus. If Rick, Daryl, Michonne and Carl had found evidence that the Terminus cannibals were holding prisoners and killing people before they revealed themselves, don't you think they would have gone in guns blazing? The people hadn't done anything to cross Rick at that point, but he knew that they were a hostile threat.

 gorgon wrote:

Spoiler:

...does this ep suggest that Carol will survive the season finale, having just survived a probable death scenario? Or is it just another episode of meaty stuff for that character as part of her sendoff? Looks like she's in next week's ep too. It will be interesting...and I still think that Daryl isn't 100% safe.

Also next week, it appears Abraham and Eugene will be out patrolling together. Oh dear. That might start the culling...

Rick's Crew is as 'good' a 'good guy' as you're going to get in this post-apocalyptic 'The Survivors are the Real Monsters' world that the show is set in!

I'll agree though that the crew is certainly taking a darker turn.

Interesting that Carol seems to be wanting to change.

Is she - gasp! - trying to become some sort of moral compass?

They've already beaten us over the head (heh - pun intended!) with what happens to Moral Compasses...

If they kill Eugene and Abraham then my friend will think its Christmas!

It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?

An excellent episode. Dark but with the contrast that still shows Rick's group mostly runs with the light. This season has been HUGE on alternate people. We've seen Alternate Rick, Glen, Maggie, Daryl, and Carol. I might have missed someone, it's be easier to notice if it wasn't week to week with a 2 month break in between

I love Carol. I love that even when she is having a moral issue (which she clearly does) she's planning and plotting how to get out of it. She was genuinely trying to save those people if only to save herself the pain of killing them herself. The "I hope not" line was beautifully delivered.

I find it interesting that all the women seemed to be out on patrol (Paula's group and the female that showed up at the end) and none of them were in the station (at least I don't remember a woman being shot in the station).

This episode did highlight for me how little we get to see of some of the truly great people they've got on this show. Maggie was pretty light on the ground this season up to this point, Carol practically non-existant, and Aaron the same. That doesn't include the limited time for people like Sasha, Abraham, Eugene, and even Daryl to a lesser extent. The cast is amazing but there are so many good ones it's hard to get quality screentime for them.

I'm still calling Abraham or Carol getting Lucilled. Abraham is one of the few non 1st/2nd seasoners that will get an actual reaction and Carol still seems to be coming to the end of her arc. I think Tara can go too but that's mostly because she eats screen time that could be given to more preferred characters for me

 Alpharius wrote:
It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?

Nope - not at all - She really dislikes Abraham after his "I thought you were the last woman on earth - but your not" dumping line.

Eugene - we just feel that he is taking up precious tv time that actually interesting characters (Carol, Aeron for instance) could have - and yeah before people whine on and on about how important he is in the comic - YES I do know but this is not the comic - see Andrea as the best example of this.....(or worst)

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You're forgetting that these Saviours that Rick orchestrated a surprise attack on were a part of a much larger group, several members of whom had already attacked members of Ricks group.

The Saviours initiated hostilities, not Rick, and then Rick learned that the Saviours have a reputation for terrorizing communities. They were already enemies at this point, even if the rest of the Saviours did not yet know who killed their bikers.

Rick was simply being proactive in eliminating a known hostioe threat.

Its like Terminus. If Rick, Daryl, Michonne and Carl had found evidence that the Terminus cannibals were holding prisoners and killing people before they revealed themselves, don't you think they would have gone in guns blazing? The people hadn't done anything to cross Rick at that point, but he knew that they were a hostile threat.

I'm not forgetting gak. I clearly remember that the guys who ambushed Daryl, Sasha and Abraham are smears on the road and not the same individuals who got knives in their ears. Besides, maybe the crew on bikes were going to kill D, S and A, and maybe they weren't. We know they wanted to take their stuff. We also know that the bunch at the station asked for the head of Gregory -- who, to be fair, has shown himself to be a reprehensible d*ck. And most of all, Rick and company are really doing this because of the compensation they'll receive -- "this is how we eat."

So based on that, you think Rick and company still have the high moral ground after killing everyone associated with those guys in their sleep? Keep in mind here that Rick and company DON'T KNOW the full picture with the Saviors...their actions were based on a very limited amount of info.

The writers are *clearly* making a point here in every way short of flashing neon lights -- "you're not the good guys" -- so I don't know why you're trying so hard to whitewash their actions. Rick and company are doing some *bad* things. Maybe it's in the name of their survival, and maybe they're a helluva lot better bunch to deal with than the Saviors, but they're definitely down in the muck. And the worst part (and probably the writers' intent) is that...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
This episode did highlight for me how little we get to see of some of the truly great people they've got on this show. Maggie was pretty light on the ground this season up to this point, Carol practically non-existant, and Aaron the same. That doesn't include the limited time for people like Sasha, Abraham, Eugene, and even Daryl to a lesser extent. The cast is amazing but there are so many good ones it's hard to get quality screentime for them.

We'll also soon meet someone who has a BIG personality and will command plenty of screen time going into next season. So yeah...there's gonna be a culling a-coming soon.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?

Nope - not at all - She really dislikes Abraham after his "I thought you were the last woman on earth - but your not" dumping line.

Eugene - we just feel that he is taking up precious tv time that actually interesting characters (Carol, Aeron for instance) could have - and yeah before people whine on and on about how important he is in the comic - YES I do know but this is not the comic - see Andrea as the best example of this.....(or worst)

Whining?

Don't just blithely dismiss the comic out of hand. Eugene is on almost the exact same character arc that he was in the comic. A deceitful coward who uses his intelligence to trick others into escorting him safely to Alexandria where his deceit is exposed, but he's forgiven and eventually proves himself to be a valuable member of the group. Its in this conflict with the Saviours that Eugene finally proves his worth. Do you really think anyone else in Alexandria or the Hilltop knows how to

Yes, the TV show often diverges from the comics, but unlike Andrea whose character diverged from the comics very early on, there has been no indication so far that Eugene has/is going to diverge. Hell, the only significant divergence I can think of is that Eugene actually had the balls to join the fight with the herd.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?

Nope - not at all - She really dislikes Abraham after his "I thought you were the last woman on earth - but your not" dumping line.

Eugene - we just feel that he is taking up precious tv time that actually interesting characters (Carol, Aeron for instance) could have - and yeah before people whine on and on about how important he is in the comic - YES I do know but this is not the comic - see Andrea as the best example of this.....(or worst)

Well, unfortunately for you, it's a show with a large cast and every character may not be your absolute favorite. You seem to have the same issues with Game of Thrones not being the Daenerys show, so maybe the issue isn't with the writing or actors.

I'm actually enjoying Eugene's story arc. I liked that he gathered the courage to join the fight with the herd - IIRC, thats a big difference from the comics. If the show follows the comic, he's going to be pivotal in the conflict with the Saviours. The thing with Eugene is that he's not an action hero. He uses his intelligence to contribute in much more subtle ways, but which are just as critical to Alexandria's survival as the heroics of action heroes like Rick, Daryl and Abraham. But subtlety isn't very exciting, especially if all you want from a show is low brow zombie action heroes.

Eugene's the sort of guy who can fix radios, manufacture... and build...

But theres not much glory in that.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?

Nope - not at all - She really dislikes Abraham after his "I thought you were the last woman on earth - but your not" dumping line.

Eugene - we just feel that he is taking up precious tv time that actually interesting characters (Carol, Aeron for instance) could have - and yeah before people whine on and on about how important he is in the comic - YES I do know but this is not the comic - see Andrea as the best example of this.....(or worst)

Whining?

Don't just blithely dismiss the comic out of hand. Eugene is on almost the exact same character arc that he was in the comic. A deceitful coward who uses his intelligence to trick others into escorting him safely to Alexandria where his deceit is exposed, but he's forgiven and eventually proves himself to be a valuable member of the group. Its in this conflict with the Saviours that Eugene finally proves his worth. Do you really think anyone else in Alexandria or the Hilltop knows how to

Spoiler:

manufacture bullets?

Yes, the TV often diverges from the comics, but unlike Andrea whose character diverged from the comics very early on, there has been no indication so far that Eugene has/is going to diverge. Hell, the only significant divergence I can think of is that Eugene actually had the balls to join the fight with the herd.

FFS - I said I know the bloody comic back to front - and every time anyone dares to mention anything negative about that fat useless F - we get this..............

It might turn out the same - it might not - We specifically don't want it to as we don't like him.

Well, unfortunately for you, it's a show with a large cast and every character may not be your absolute favorite. You seem to have the same issues with Game of Thrones not being the Daenerys show, so maybe the issue isn't with the writing or actors.

Or its just a thread where opinions are being expressed..................I recall your hatred of Dany and desire to make it just the I love Jon Snow and friends universe - see I can do it too............

@Gorgon

I'd say it's a portion of doing it to get fed and a portion of not having what happened with the Wolves happening again. I think there are a lot of things involved with the direction Rick's group has taken. But to me, they are still the good guys.

The Saviors on the road were seconds away from blasting Abraham and Sasha (well, at least Abraham) before that rocket caught them. We've been told they introduce themselves by murdering a member of the populace (believable based on the road encounter, especially since that leader said as much too). This group out of hand murdered 2 people on delivery run, kept one hostage, and sent another back to bring them the head of the community leader because they felt the delivery was light.

Add in our actual meetings with people in this group. The mentality of "You produce for US" they seem to live by.

It all adds up to a group where compromise is unlikely and where bloodshed and slaughter are far more likely. Taking the first step when you've witnessed how these things go doesn't seem dark to me. It seems reasonable. Even if it has the added bonus of keeping Alexandria fed.

Unlike the people we saw last night I genuinely think Rick would have kept his word for the trade. I also think Carol was genuine in trying to keep her captors alive at the expense of everything except her life or maggies. Glen saves kids and brings them home. Daryl is willing to stick his neck out for people he newly meets (though he's going thru his own crisis right now). The group as a whole is a wholesome a group you're going to find in the apocalypse. gak, they even have open forums for discussion on policy decisions.

They are still the good guys. Killing killers in their sleep to me doesn't move the bar from good guys to bad guys.

FFS - I said I know the bloody comic back to front - and every time anyone dares to mention anything negative about that fat useless F - we get this..............

The only whining in this thread is someone complaining that he wants all the characters he dislikes to be killed off...Hell, Carol was useless early on, and look how she turned out. Nobody is complaining about her now. Carol was given the chance to develop and grow as a character. And I think Eugene should be given that chance too. If that offends you...cry me a river.

Or its just a thread where opinions are being expressed..................

Except that you're not just expressing an opinion. You're saying "I don't like this character so I want him to be killed off". Thats naturally going to tick people off who DO like him, and its hardly a friendly way to start off a discussion. Especially if you pre-emptively disregard other people's opinions on the mere basis of "I don't like him and I want the show to go my way. If you disagree you can feth off".

I recall your hatred of Dany and desire to make it just the I love Jon Snow and friends universe - see I can do it too............

As a side note, Jon Snow and Dany are two of my favourite characters (the third being Arya). So I'm not taking a side on that.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

FFS - I said I know the bloody comic back to front - and every time anyone dares to mention anything negative about that fat useless F - we get this..............

The only whining in this thread is someone complaining that he wants all the characters he dislikes to be killed off...Hell, Carol was useless early on, and look how she turned out. Nobody is complaining about her now. Carol was given the chance to develop and grow as a character. And I think Eugene should be given that chance too. If that offends you...cry me a river.
...

.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

FFS - I said I know the bloody comic back to front - and every time anyone dares to mention anything negative about that fat useless F - we get this..............

The only whining in this thread is someone complaining that he wants all the characters he dislikes to be killed off...Hell, Carol was useless early on, and look how she turned out. Nobody is complaining about her now. Carol was given the chance to develop and grow as a character. And I think Eugene should be given that chance too. If that offends you...cry me a river.
...

Why would anyone have characters they dislike in any show????

Sorry if expressing a view is so offensive - like you said cry me a fking river

Because this show is not about "Mr Morden's every want and desire".

Other people have differing opinions, and may like characters that you dislike. And vice versa. If you have a problem with that? Might be best to stay off the internet.

It might also be a good time to remember RULE #1 here too.

****

I still don't think that Negan will be playing baseball with any female member of the group - and not just because of how he...handled himself in the comic.

It still feels as if the 'Carol Coming to the End of her Arc' thing is a fakeout/bait and switch.

Morgan is still my number one candidate there...

Only 3 episodes left!!!

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or its just a thread where opinions are being expressed..................I recall your hatred of Dany and desire to make it just the I love Jon Snow and friends universe - see I can do it too............

Actually, I don't "hate" Daenerys. For one thing, I have trouble getting strong feelings up for a fictional person. For another, the TV character is much more likeable that the book version. It's possible that I've said things in the past to get a rise out of you or other "Team Daenerys" types, but that's about the extent of it.

I dunno. Everyone has favorite characters, but I don't think I'm "Team" anyone to where I get attached to and elevate a particular character over the series/movie/book/whatever itself. But obviously there are people who feel differently. I just have a hard time understanding them. *shrug*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
It might also be a good time to remember RULE #1 here too.

****

I still don't think that Negan will be playing baseball with any female member of the group - and not just because of how he...handled himself in the comic.

It still feels as if the 'Carol Coming to the End of her Arc' thing is a fakeout/bait and switch.

Morgan is still my number one candidate there...

Only 3 episodes left!!!

I'm also sticking with Morgan for the reasons we've discussed. But I'm not sure that anyone other than Rick and Carl is 100% safe, and think we could see something even more dramatic for the season ender. IIRC...

Yeah, if you need a gut punch Morgan isn't it. I think he will die but his death will be almost overshadowed by whoever they do off that has actual value to the viewer.

Honestly I'm a little sad with Morgan if he does go because he feels like a wasted opportunity. He was brilliant in the first episode and on "Clear". He was pretty awesome early on even if he didn't kill but it's tiring watching him get more people than Noah killed.

I also like that they inflated the enemy numbers by allowing Rick and crew to clear out around 2 dozen of them (maybe more) at the station plus the 6-8 that were taken out on the road. It shows how solid Rick's crew is but at the same time is going to double back hard when you realize the scope of the threat.

It could also possibly play into the idea that the surprise attack of that magnitude went a long way toward leveling the playing field which would have ended up with Alexandria gone in a day if it hadn't happened.

It was 10 on the road with the RPG, plus who knows how many at the Station plus the Paula 4 and the 'rescue crew'.

Rick and Co. have taken out upwards of...30 to 40 Saviors already, with no casualties of their own (yet!) - sheesh!

Yup, they are pulling some straight up commando stuff now. Just remember that the good guys aren't always nice guys. The last episode gave some great contrasts, though, in the form of the dialogue between the captors and captives. Paula losing count of how many she had killed while Carol knows every one. Rick trying to trade hostages and end the blood shed while the Survivors were quite willing to cut (the hostages) and run. The shared father moment between Maggie and her captor. Really, it was the humanizing of these captors that really made it work. Nobody really cares when mook #3 gets eaten by zombies. Even the burning killing floor had far less impact (is that gasoline I smell?) than the women's deaths because they were just some guys and an imminent threat.

And, yes, I think the show is doing it's best to build up the karna debt to be paid for ruthlessness such as when Rick gunned down Primo. Those who balk at what Rick and crew have done, I think, are going to have their eyes opened when Negan enters the scene. Definitely a step up in plotting from the pointlessness that was Beth's death....