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 yakface wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well that was a brutal episode. What did everyone think?

I thought they killed off the two most fun characters in the group, and now, more than ever, we're left with a bunch of mopedy-mopes.

Also, still felt there was no real need to keep the death reveals until the premiere, especially when it meant slowing down the finale so much. Otherwise, the episode did what they wanted it to do (bum you out).

They did a rather cruel thing with the delayed Glen kill too - that was rather extra evil of them.

Combined with the fact that Daryl WILL blame himself for that...forever.

Oh, and Daryl's a prisoner too now.

There was a bit too much of an FU to the "If Daryl Dies We Riot" demographic tonight!

Still, glad it is here and that we've go this out of the way - let's move on.

And let's hope the TV Negan Arc isn't dragged out as much as the comic one was!

I admit the double kill got me. I thought they'd copped put with just Abraham but then boom, Glenn too. That said I didn't feel as much as I would have if Daryl had gotten the bat.

Overall a good episode and an excellent send off for both actors. Gonna miss the he'll out of Abraham.

Also maybe with them gone we'll get more of Aaron and Jesus who stand to be at least as fun as just Abraham so it's possible it could be more fun than previously but this season feels like there is going to be very limited humor.

We expected one death... we got two. I wanted more dialogue gold from Abraham, and we indeed got one last quip from him in a moment of bittersweetness, but I was not prepared for the slow, incredibly graphic end of Glenn. I had to get up and take a short walk during the commercials

Now my prediction for this season was that the death (presumed to be a single death) would be among Abraham, Eugene, and Glenn, but I was certain Eugene was foreshadowed to be killed off. He had a long farewell with Rick and Abraham, and also gave Rick the bullet recipe. So I was partly wrong with my prediction... yet I was more right than I cared to be.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well that was a brutal episode. What did everyone think?

Just...damn! Is JDM just fantastic or what?!

I would have rather had Daryl bite it than Glenn. But Negan showed the monster he is: "I won't kill you if you screw with me...I'll kill someone else, and you get to suffer knowing you lived, and they died for your mistake." It's a harsh lesson, and a brutal one.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I would have rather had Daryl bite it than Glenn. But Negan showed the monster he is: "I won't kill you if you screw with me...I'll kill someone else, and you get to suffer knowing you lived, and they died for your mistake." It's a harsh lesson, and a brutal one.

I guess we've got to admit how effective of a scare tactic that appears to be. Who would even dare put a toe out of line if it costs the life of someone you love, rather than throw your own life away? Especially if said person is chosen at random...

...well, clearly they're going to 'screw with Negan' eventually - and Negan's tactics certainly worked/will work for a while, but...

Yup, extremely brutal episode. I couldn't help but be frustrated by Rick's mouthing off and Darryl's outburst. Negan just brutally murdered one of your friends without hesitation and told you that if anyone so much as talked, there would be another. Then that. Plus, I really liked Glen.

Smart Rick would have been like "Yessir, whatever you ask is done," while looking as pathetic as possible and secretly counting how many men there were, noting weapons, etc. and encouraging the group to not provoke Negan. Follow his rules and be smart- look for a weakness down the line.

Well, yes, of course, and they'll probably end up there soon - at least I hope so, because I can't take too many super-mopey episodes, though clearly we're due for a stretch of them.

Glen was...doomed.

It was coming for him - it is just The Walking Dead *had* to have this happen to him, I guess...

I kinda feel like them killing Glenn is a bit silly.

They did that whole bit last season, and went out of their way to emphasize that "No no no, Glenn won't be the one killed by Negan. We're different to the comics" and things like that...only to do it anyways.

Ah well. Brutal episode. Jeffrey Dean Morgan killed it as Negan, no pun intended.

 Kanluwen wrote:


They did that whole bit last season, and went out of their way to emphasize that "No no no, Glenn won't be the one killed by Negan. We're different to the comics" and things like that...only to do it anyways.

Did they actually say that?

They teased the whole 'Glen is really dead here guys! Maybe!' but I don't remember them saying that he was NOT going to get killed by Negan, as in the comics.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


They did that whole bit last season, and went out of their way to emphasize that "No no no, Glenn won't be the one killed by Negan. We're different to the comics" and things like that...only to do it anyways.

Did they actually say that?

They teased the whole 'Glen is really dead here guys! Maybe!' but I don't remember them saying that he was NOT going to get killed by Negan, as in the comics.

They didn't specifically say it, but they kept saying that Glenn was one of the few that was "safe" since they had done it previously.

I don't follow the comics so I can't really say much about the way things worked in the book around this time, but it's just one of those things where I think this might have been a misstep for the show.

I hate to harp on the cliffhanger, but it really changed the experience from the comic book, and I think that played into how the episode played out.

In the comic, you don't go into that issue expecting a major character to die. It's sprung on you right at the end of the issue, leaving you saying "holy gak!"

In the show, we knew there'd be a death, so the writers had to make it 'worth' the wait and buildup. Ergo, they had to go OTT with not just one but two deaths and two teased amputations. Although this episode also had to establish Negan, and the brutality helped do that. Still, the writers backed themselves into a corner with the cliffhanger, and as a result this episode basically wrote itself. And I don't think it was better for it. Lots of suspense/titillation/whatever...not so much story.

Hopefully we'll see some more interesting narratives now that Negan's introduction is out of the way. Although it feels like they're tracking the comic more closely than ever now. I'm not sure I like that, actually.

Morgan was pretty solid in the role. He's not a great physical match for comic Negan, but he did capture one thing that really typifies the character -- Negan just loves being Negan. Every day, he wakes up just loving being himself.

On the Talking Dead the Glenn actor actually stated that he specifically told them not to give that death to anyone else. He knew the impact it was supposed to have and couldn't imagine his character going out any other way.

That said I loved JDM but he still hasn't recovered physically from a rancher role he did where he got down to like 130lbs or something stupid. Hopefully he puts the weight back on because he always felt like a physically imposing dude in most things I've seen him in up until he did that for the other role.

I'm kinda excited to see where the season goes. And let's be real, they needed someone like JDM to play Negan after the rockstar awesome job the actor that played the Govenor did. Wouldn't do to be able to compare them side by side and have Negan feel weaker just because of how he got played.

"Wow, that actually sounds right!" I laughed.

To get Negan right, he needs to make you laugh and like him just a little before you remember what a monster he is.

I haven't really watched it since the Wolves. After they killed Beth and fake killed Glenn I wasn't interested. Its recorded and the wife was talking about rewatching those episodes with the new season starter.

On reconsideration....nah.

 Hulksmash wrote:
On the Talking Dead the Glenn actor actually stated that he specifically told them not to give that death to anyone else. He knew the impact it was supposed to have and couldn't imagine his character going out any other way.

See, I thought that was a great answer...but like I mentioned, I feel like after the fakeout last season it was a huge misstep.

 yakface wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well that was a brutal episode. What did everyone think?

I thought they killed off the two most fun characters in the group, and now, more than ever, we're left with a bunch of mopedy-mopes.

True, any minor ray of hope must be destroyed!

Negan is easily more fun than Abraham and Glenn put together. Of course, he's also a psychopathic monster and the bad guy. *shrug*

And I still say the issue wasn't that they killed either of them...it's that they had to devote an entire episode of a short season to it because of their decision with the cliffhanger. It's done now, and hopefully they get back to crafting a narrative.

 gorgon wrote:
I hate to harp on the cliffhanger, but it really changed the experience from the comic book, and I think that played into how the episode played out.

In the comic, you don't go into that issue expecting a major character to die. It's sprung on you right at the end of the issue, leaving you saying "holy gak!"

In the show, we knew there'd be a death, so the writers had to make it 'worth' the wait and buildup. Ergo, they had to go OTT with not just one but two deaths and two teased amputations. Although this episode also had to establish Negan, and the brutality helped do that. Still, the writers backed themselves into a corner with the cliffhanger, and as a result this episode basically wrote itself. And I don't think it was better for it. Lots of suspense/titillation/whatever...not so much story.

Hopefully we'll see some more interesting narratives now that Negan's introduction is out of the way. Although it feels like they're tracking the comic more closely than ever now. I'm not sure I like that, actually.

Morgan was pretty solid in the role. He's not a great physical match for comic Negan, but he did capture one thing that really typifies the character -- Negan just loves being Negan. Every day, he wakes up just loving being himself.

Totally agree with all of this. I think they made the right decision to go with the surprise bonus death. Their goal was a gut punch and that acccomlised it but it also didn't need to be a 1.5 hour episode. The weird Negan-Rick RV side journey could have been cut.

One thing they always do on this show is take moments from Carl. IIRC in the comic Carl is staring at Negan like a psychopath the entire time while everyone else is bawling their eyes out. They should have keep that. And then Negan is sort of "charmed" by that and takes him in. I don't think replacing Carl in that storyline with Daryl is a good idea. We're never going to buy that Daryl can be seduced to the dark side like Carl.

I hope they aren't switching the Carl storyline. It's an important part of Carl's growth, and he's a key character in stuff that comes later. To be fair, that's not how Carl went to the Sanctuary, so maybe Daryl will just be the audiences' eyes and ears inside Negan's group until them.

 gorgon wrote:
Negan is easily more fun than Abraham and Glenn put together. Of course, he's also a psychopathic monster and the bad guy. *shrug*

And I still say the issue wasn't that they killed either of them...it's that they had to devote an entire episode of a short season to it because of their decision with the cliffhanger. It's done now, and hopefully they get back to crafting a narrative.

Agreed - it took 2 episodes to do waht could have been done more effectively in one.- coyuld have just had Negans crew wating for them at Hilltop - none of the nonsense with roadblocks and such.

Tough call on who was to die and that bit was done well -but the ride Rick took with Negan seeemd filler - should have just gone to the "chop his hand off" - which was great stuff, very powerful.

On the bright side = so we lose Ramsey in GOT and get Negan in WD - fun times, decent bad guys are such an assest. Hell Negan probably figured he went easy on them considering they killed what 50 of his people.

Assume we will get a Daryl in the lions den episode and looking forward to the Kingdom!

I do hope the Kingdom isn't as derpy as it looks. So far, the previews with the pads and tigers looks more likely to make me chuckle than anything. How a bunch of goofs in sports pads don't get scooped up by Negan's folks is a mystery....

 jmurph wrote:
I do hope the Kingdom isn't as derpy as it looks. So far, the previews with the pads and tigers looks more likely to make me chuckle than anything. How a bunch of goofs in sports pads don't get scooped up by Negan's folks is a mystery....

People wearing armour makes sense in Zombieland

You think Negan has not visted them?

Whats actually more wierd is that Negan never visted Alexandria prior to Rick. Well apart from a plot point.

Yeah, I want to see hardcore guys with chainmail and plate to defeat zombie teeth, and using real shields to slam zombies.

My favorite bad guy was always the Protector in the post-apocolyptic "Dies the Fire" book series, who uses his SCA knowledge and a history doctorate to set up a pseudo-midieval state-spanning empire that would make the Emperor smile. A "good guy" take on that would be pretty cool.

 gorgon wrote:
I hope they aren't switching the Carl storyline. It's an important part of Carl's growth, and he's a key character in stuff that comes later. To be fair, that's not how Carl went to the Sanctuary, so maybe Daryl will just be the audiences' eyes and ears inside Negan's group until them.

And they took Just don't get why they keep doing that. Carl is actually supposed to be a badass.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 jmurph wrote:
I do hope the Kingdom isn't as derpy as it looks. So far, the previews with the pads and tigers looks more likely to make me chuckle than anything. How a bunch of goofs in sports pads don't get scooped up by Negan's folks is a mystery....

People wearing armour makes sense in Zombieland

You think Negan has not visted them?

Whats actually more wierd is that Negan never visted Alexandria prior to Rick. Well apart from a plot point.

Alexandria as portrayed made no sense whatsoever And it's not that armor isn't useful- it's that sports store gear looks stupid and seems to be of debatable use when zombies seem to just bite unprotected areas anyway and are capable of ripping someone apart by force of numbers. Gloves actually make a ton of sense for a number of reasons. If we want to go down the believable path, denim and leather should stop walkers cold, meaning someone with jeans, leather boots, leather gloves, a secured canvas/leather/denim jacket, and some sort of helmet should be pretty much immune to zombies. But as we've seen, WD walkers can even use their hands to breach your abdominal wall!

For me this season picked up where the last one left off, with an overwhelming feeling of get the F on with it.

The whole episode I was just left wondering why nobody was doing anything. Why would Abhrams, a military guy, just sit there while a guy swings a bat at his head? S*** I could have dealt with Negan if put in that situation.

How many chances did rick have to bury that axe in Negans face?

Just argh, what's wrong with them. It's just frustrating to watch. Why did this one scene take up 2 whole episodes. What did we learn, Negan is a bad guy. Join the queue, everyone we meet in the series is. Can we do something new and interesting now?

When they are all in the death circle no one can do anything because they all have guns trained on them.

But ya, those solo Rick-Negan moments there were definitely some opportunities for some hatcheting. That's another reason I wasn't a big fan of that sequence. Like I said, it just seemed to be there to fill time for an extended episode.

I gotta agree with a lot of what's being said here, and in most of the online reviews about the premiere I've been reading...the premiere, and much of last season taken in totality really is starting to feel like the primary motivation for the showrunners now is to get specific audience reactions through manipulation, rather than just telling an interesting story and letting the audience reaction play out naturally. I mean look, subverting audience expectations on a show like this is certainly necessary to some degree (especially when you have an existing ongoing comic as source material), but when that becomes the force that drives narrative decisions, I think only bad things can come out of that mindset.

The showrunners admitted on the Talking Dead last night that they've known, more or less, what was going to happen with Neegan, Glen & Abraham for two years. That means Glen's fakeout deaths last season were essentially a way for them to play with the audience's love of Glen's character a few more times before they offed him. I said last season when the 'Glen under a dumpster' arc was playing out, but it sure seemed like they had let the concept of keeping 'the audience in the dark' about Glen's fate take precedence over telling a good story, and now I'm about 100% sure of it, as now in hindsight the way they structured the finale & premiere did the exact same thing again.

The truth (IMHO, of course) is that they strung out the end of Alexandria to have that shocking finale, and they strung out these deaths (and added a 2nd death) simply to get around the narrative holes they had dug themselves into to get these shocks into the show. If the showrunners were admitting that perhaps they dug themselves into a bit of a hole and were a little unhappy with how some things turned out with the end of last season and the premiere, then I'd be reassured moving forward that things are going to get great again, but the fact that they seem completely pleased with how they've handled this, gives me serious concerns about the future of the show.

If the 'shocks' continue to be the main priority, and the narrative continues to get warped or degraded in service to fitting these 'shocks' in, then it will only be a matter of time before the audience gets tired of the shocks and starts to tune out en masse as the story and characters no longer interest them. I hope I'm wrong...I hope they gotten over their obsession to 'trick' the audience as a primary motivation and can just get back to telling an interesting narrative with all these new communities and characters that are on the way this season.