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 jmurph wrote:
Yeah, part of the problem is that the show seems afraid to have any real morality debates and so the group has to be portrayed as always good/right and bad guys as clearly bad and need to be killed. Which is a shame as real people don't really work that way and are often many shades of grey.

The Governor is a perfect example of the ham fisted approach. They had a great opportunity to show him as a man doing what he thinks necessary to protect those around him. Brutal, and maybe misguided and cruel, but with a protective streak. But no, needed a stupid plot zombie and he had to shoot back to twirling mustache evil and public decapitation for reasons.

Likewise, Rick and crews cold blooded extermination of a Saviors outpost was pretty much glossed over as necessary because they are all bad. And subsequently justified in show by having every Savior inexplicably loyal to a bombastic, brutal, strongman and showing lots of scummy behavior so they can be offed without consequence.

That's true. For a while there they could have gone in a direction that was more compelling than the original comic storyline but instead decided to go with less compelling...

What a bunch of fething lunatics.

"We take, we don't bother". Lazy fethers.

I thought the clipped sentence style of speech was overdone and distracting. I'm willing to believe that you'd see new cultures and philosophies emerge after a few years post-apocalypse (we'll certainly see more of this down the road), but I'm not sure why they'd be talking like cartoon cavemen.

I thought the Carol/Daryl interaction -- and his decision in particular -- was the highlight.

More filler sadly.

Thats a very big gang of people who apparently live well on scavenging cans.

Yeah, they was bizarre and not in a good way. They grafted a lame 80s style post apoc group in and it didn't make any sense. So we are supposed to believe that these guys and the Survivors have never bumped into each other? Really? Maybe because they are all dressed in black? I dunno. The speaking pattern was really stupid.

Anyway, with their Hoarders enclave, I am surprised they aren't rife with disease and infections. And, apparently, have no problems living amongst walls of easily collapsed garbage.

And the whole take, not bother made no sense whatsoever. Bother who? The frigging supplies they wanted were unguarded.

I was hoping for more of a savage, feral group that had developed stealth/fieldcraft over direct confrontation, but was increasingly desperate for supplies and unwilling to attack the Survivors directly who they saw as too heavily armed. More bushwhacking practical scavengers and less goth hoarders.

I would also have accepted some honest to god mutants that look like some kind of horrible walker human hybrid, but are alive and immune to the disease.

 jmurph wrote:
Yeah, they was bizarre and not in a good way. They grafted a lame 80s style post apoc group in and it didn't make any sense. So we are supposed to believe that these guys and the Survivors have never bumped into each other? Really? Maybe because they are all dressed in black? I dunno. The speaking pattern was really stupid.

Anyway, with their Hoarders enclave, I am surprised they aren't rife with disease and infections. And, apparently, have no problems living amongst walls of easily collapsed garbage.

And the whole take, not bother made no sense whatsoever. Bother who? The frigging supplies they wanted were unguarded.

Well, other than the whole lake full of zombies.

I was hoping for more of a savage, feral group that had developed stealth/fieldcraft over direct confrontation, but was increasingly desperate for supplies and unwilling to attack the Survivors directly who they saw as too heavily armed. More bushwhacking practical scavengers and less goth hoarders.

They seemed to have developed stealth/fieldcraft pretty well...seeing as how they "bushwhacked" Gabriel inside of Alexandria itself.

The actor playing Gabriel confirmed that the one he pulled a knife on was actually in the car. That was the whole point of the story he told Rick about being on guard during the night, hearing something, and then running across her in the Pantry.

I would also have accepted some honest to god mutants that look like some kind of horrible walker human hybrid, but are alive and immune to the disease.

So...Fallout is more acceptable than an "80s post apoc group"?

The show really didn't need a fourth group of survivors. Between the survivors of Alexandria with their hardened and experienced core of fighters (Rick & Co.), the Hilltop and the Kingdom, there should have been more than enough people for Rick's army. At least, if they hadn't diminished the population of the Hilltop.

Hell, the Kingdom appears to be the largest settlement so far (before this new stupid invention by the show) and they're already militarised - seriously, they're training their own medieval style Knights with mounted cavalry, archers and even axes (did anyone else notice that massive feth-off badass battle axe that Ezekiel's jovial black bodyguard was carrying?).

I get that they wanted to pad the show out with filler, but they could have easily substituted the Kingdom in place of the junkyard scavengers. Ezekiel is reluctant to join the alliance, so makes a demand for a large amount of firearms as a condition for the Kingdom joining the alliance, thinking its an impossible task.

The rest of the episode could have been spent with Rick and Co. exploring DC and scouting or scavenging for weapons. And then at the end of the episode they locate some location like a military base or police station infested with a huge amount of walkers (like several hundred or thousand), which would have been a good set up for a future action packed filler episode to stretch the Season out even further.

Weird group discovered there. Way back when they encountered the Hospital Slavers I said this is the direction the show needs to go in. Like the Star Trek of the Apocalypse boldly meeting new groups of suvivors but this is right on the line of what's believable. Felt like I was watching Mad Max. They're lifestyle is believable but what's up with the way they talk? It's only been like 5 years since the end of the world and we're developing some kind of proto-dialect? Like I said right on the line of plausible but not over it I think.

Yeah the new lot would have been more interesting if they had turned up to plunder those settlements weakened by the war between the Saviours and everyone else.

Lots of weird stuff - the Saviours seems to have unending supply of fighters all of whom are dicks - no exception.

They have been around for ages but apparently not come across Alexandria or this new lot - despite slaughtering other communities next door.

Given all the cool stuff they could be doing - the amount of filler in the show is really surprising.

If you want to go all Mad Max - then go for it - given that apparently every car still starts and has petrol in it - why not - have them rampaging about Mad Max/Vikings style and the only force than can stop them is the Saviours - so who does Rick and co side with then

Make it a bit more interesting guys.....

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The show really didn't need a fourth group of survivors. Between the survivors of Alexandria with their hardened and experienced core of fighters (Rick & Co.), the Hilltop and the Kingdom, there should have been more than enough people for Rick's army. At least, if they hadn't diminished the population of the Hilltop.

There already is a fourth group - you've forgotten the Very Well Armed and Trigger Happy Fishing Village of Only Women (Oceanside?) that already has good reason to fear AND hate the Saviors.

Last episode is already settinh up Tara's moral conflict in regards to them too...

So pretty soon it will be five groups vs. The Saviors.

All Out War indeed!!!

It is going to be so over the top and ridiculous - and probably not in a good way!

We still have no idea of the size of the Saviours.

It appeared quite a small group when Negan was grandstanding to Carl but they seem to have loads of fighters?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The show really didn't need a fourth group of survivors. Between the survivors of Alexandria with their hardened and experienced core of fighters (Rick & Co.), the Hilltop and the Kingdom, there should have been more than enough people for Rick's army. At least, if they hadn't diminished the population of the Hilltop.

There already is a fourth group - you've forgotten the Very Well Armed and Trigger Happy Fishing Village of Only Women (Oceanside?) that already has good reason to fear AND hate the Saviors.

Last episode is already settinh up Tara's moral conflict in regards to them too...

So pretty soon it will be five groups vs. The Saviors.

All Out War indeed!!!

It is going to be so over the top and ridiculous - and probably not in a good way!

Good point but I'd forgotten and written them off as just a one off filler episode to introduce the oceanside group early...



But then again that would require subtlety and foresight, and this show has none of either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
We still have no idea of the size of the Saviours.

It appeared quite a small group when Negan was grandstanding to Carl but they seem to have loads of fighters?

They have multiple outposts, both in the comics and TV show. The outpost rick and co. hit had dozens of people. And then Negan showed up with several dozen more people.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah the new lot would have been more interesting if they had turned up to plunder those settlements weakened by the war between the Saviours and everyone else.

Lots of weird stuff - the Saviours seems to have unending supply of fighters all of whom are dicks - no exception.

They have been around for ages but apparently not come across Alexandria or this new lot - despite slaughtering other communities next door.

Given all the cool stuff they could be doing - the amount of filler in the show is really surprising.

If you want to go all Mad Max - then go for it - given that apparently every car still starts and has petrol in it - why not - have them rampaging about Mad Max/Vikings style and the only force than can stop them is the Saviours - so who does Rick and co side with then

Make it a bit more interesting guys.....

Ha, ya that drives me crazy. It's like Grand Theft TWD out there. Every car starts up just fine and has a full tank of gas - just press the Y button. Everyone just drives everywhere so I don't see the impetus of having to deal with evil empires like The Saviors Without Number. Just drive off - like Mad Max. Everyone should be talking a lot more about where to get the precious "juice".
I can't remember the last time anyone drove anywhere in the comic. It took them months to walk northwards though America. I don't know why the show feels the need to show people driving. It's not like the actors really need to walk the distance....just... act like you walked far.

Well, the driving *now* might be an attempt to show how these various settlements aren't that close to each other, maybe?

But you're right, the only one that feels 'out there' is "Oceanside".

They use horses now in the comics.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah the new lot would have been more interesting if they had turned up to plunder those settlements weakened by the war between the Saviours and everyone else.

Lots of weird stuff - the Saviours seems to have unending supply of fighters all of whom are dicks - no exception.

They have been around for ages but apparently not come across Alexandria or this new lot - despite slaughtering other communities next door.

Given all the cool stuff they could be doing - the amount of filler in the show is really surprising.

If you want to go all Mad Max - then go for it - given that apparently every car still starts and has petrol in it - why not - have them rampaging about Mad Max/Vikings style and the only force than can stop them is the Saviours - so who does Rick and co side with then

Make it a bit more interesting guys.....

Ha, ya that drives me crazy. It's like Grand Theft TWD out there. Every car starts up just fine and has a full tank of gas - just press the Y button. Everyone just drives everywhere so I don't see the impetus of having to deal with evil empires like The Saviors Without Number. Just drive off - like Mad Max. Everyone should be talking a lot more about where to get the precious "juice".
I can't remember the last time anyone drove anywhere in the comic. It took them months to walk northwards though America. I don't know why the show feels the need to show people driving. It's not like the actors really need to walk the distance....just... act like you walked far.

As silly as it might seem, I can actually get behind the "driving everywhere" thing. FTWD showed that the initial containment efforts and panic ended up with massively congested roadways...and people bailing out of their cars to walk instead. You had some people refusing to get out of their cars or getting locked back in if they looked to be infected, with the people taking the keys away from those they thought to be infected.

Plus, at least this season, we know that the Saviors have been using cars as traps and ways of "herding" the walkers. They wouldn't be using cars low on gas for that kind of stuff, right?

I think that there's a 'real world problem' with gas lasting as long as it apparently has in The Walking Dead world too, but for whatever reason, that doesn't really bother me.

Considering the huge and sudden population crash I do see gasoline being around a couple years but that's it. By now every drop would be precious and used for generators more than car driving.

I suppose the real life explanation could be that it's cheaper to show people driving than to have to hire a stable of hollywood horse wranglers and keep them around the set.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah the new lot would have been more interesting if they had turned up to plunder those settlements weakened by the war between the Saviours and everyone else.

Lots of weird stuff - the Saviours seems to have unending supply of fighters all of whom are dicks - no exception.

They have been around for ages but apparently not come across Alexandria or this new lot - despite slaughtering other communities next door.

Given all the cool stuff they could be doing - the amount of filler in the show is really surprising.

If you want to go all Mad Max - then go for it - given that apparently every car still starts and has petrol in it - why not - have them rampaging about Mad Max/Vikings style and the only force than can stop them is the Saviours - so who does Rick and co side with then

Make it a bit more interesting guys.....

Ha, ya that drives me crazy. It's like Grand Theft TWD out there. Every car starts up just fine and has a full tank of gas - just press the Y button. Everyone just drives everywhere so I don't see the impetus of having to deal with evil empires like The Saviors Without Number. Just drive off - like Mad Max. Everyone should be talking a lot more about where to get the precious "juice".
I can't remember the last time anyone drove anywhere in the comic. It took them months to walk northwards though America. I don't know why the show feels the need to show people driving. It's not like the actors really need to walk the distance....just... act like you walked far.

As silly as it might seem, I can actually get behind the "driving everywhere" thing. FTWD showed that the initial containment efforts and panic ended up with massively congested roadways...and people bailing out of their cars to walk instead. You had some people refusing to get out of their cars or getting locked back in if they looked to be infected, with the people taking the keys away from those they thought to be infected.

Plus, at least this season, we know that the Saviors have been using cars as traps and ways of "herding" the walkers. They wouldn't be using cars low on gas for that kind of stuff, right?

Well its been two years or more since the outbreak, not sure that the petrol would be usable - apparently it would go off in a few months - maybe a year if you are lucky and few modern cars would be in fit state to drive after sitting unused . Most post Apcolypse stuff has the same thing to be fair and I enjoy them = its just quite amusing.

Given that cars are pretty much zombie proof in the WD - they are more useful as somewhere to sleep when traveling. Van etc being better as you can't be seen by walkers or people.

A fully nomadic group travelling through taking what they needed could have been quite fun - they might raid the weak and trade with the strong - viking style.

but hey Zombies donlt make sense but they are fun.

Yeah, it is more 'the gas wouldn't be usable anymore 2+ years into the Apocalypse' than 'there won't be much left'!

Because apparently even in a 'best case scenario' where you've added in a fuel stabilizer of some sort, most gasoline won't remain usable even a year!

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, it is more 'the gas wouldn't be usable anymore 2+ years into the Apocalypse' than 'there won't be much left'!

Because apparently even in a 'best case scenario' where you've added in a fuel stabilizer of some sort, most gasoline won't remain usable even a year!

They need kerosene heated steam engine cars!

You know, I have changed my mind. With all the ridiculous stuff the show presents, they need to embrace the ridiculous. Why not have weird speaking emo-hoarders? The show drags when it tries to be super serious, so maybe going a bit gonzo is just what it needs. We have gas and cars, so we need more chainsaws and mohawks. More bizarre cargo cults, improvised weapons, and general insanity.

Think about how fun it would be if the survivors were a bunch of loonies who worship a pariah god lord instead of just jerks who follow a jerk. Same function, but more flavor.

It would play sort of like the Kingdom, but the leader actually believes his own act.

In that vein, I now support Lady Bangs and her helmet zombie.

I dunno about the gas. I'm no petroleum engineer, but I've heard of people starting cars that were parked a pretty long time. Certainly the gas can lose potency, get contaminated with water, or gum things up because of the additives. Running old gas would be bad for the car, but if we're talking about an apocalypse situation, then you just run it until the engine's borked.

Fuel stabilizer would also help if we're talking about gas that someone stockpiled when civilization fell. A car would *easily* run stabilized year-old gas from a good container. Two years seems like a definite maybe. Gas that's been sitting in abandoned cars for two years seems like a longer shot. Anyway...this will be addressed on the show in seasons to come.

 gorgon wrote:
I dunno about the gas. I'm no petroleum engineer, but I've heard of people starting cars that were parked a pretty long time. Certainly the gas can lose potency, get contaminated with water, or gum things up because of the additives. Running old gas would be bad for the car, but if we're talking about an apocalypse situation, then you just run it until the engine's borked.

Fuel stabilizer would also help if we're talking about gas that someone stockpiled when civilization fell. A car would *easily* run stabilized year-old gas from a good container. Two years seems like a definite maybe. Gas that's been sitting in abandoned cars for two years seems like a longer shot. Anyway...this will be addressed on the show in seasons to come.

Spoiler:

Actually, in the comics I don't understand why we haven't seen wood burning cars. They work, and they're not so complex that Eugene and company couldn't cobble some together.

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/01/wood-gas-cars.html

The internet searches seem to suggest even with stabiliser a year is touch and go, without it - its months.

However I agree - its a Zombie show so lets go with it properly and have more madness - the WD does tend to have episodes that just drag - so lets get nuts

Started watching "In to the Badlands" - quite like the idea that the barons each have a resource that they have exclusively and the others need - helps a bit with the co dependency keeping the general peace. So one has fuel one has opium etc.

re the Eugene and cars in the comic book -

 Mr Morden wrote:
The internet searches seem to suggest even with stabiliser a year is touch and go, without it - its months.

Nah, the dire warnings about gas that's a few months old are almost certainly assuming you care a lot about the engine in question. I've had old small engine equipment start and run after sitting idle for months and months. And if you search around car forums, you'll find people saying they started cars that sat for a year or two. Or more.

Now, it's not a good thing to do if you care about the engine. And some engines may be a lot more sensitive than others. But in a ZA situation, you just need something to run for a bit until it goes. I don't think they're *wildly* stretching the truth here if they're only 2 years out.

And as you said, it's a zombie show, with plenty of impossibilities and inconsistencies.

re the Eugene and cars in the comic book -

Spoiler:

well I guess they have to have a need for them that outstrips other work that he might be doing, they do already have alt methods of transport that work and the communities are quite close together so making workable cars is very resource intensive and running them worse and the gain is limited - boilers and the like are better used for heating, generating hot water for varied uses etc

Well, I'm not sure how much work is required to convert a car -- I'd guess an old model would be easier, but that stuff is above my pay grade. IIRC, the contestants on that old survival show 'The Colony' built a wood gas generator, and you'd think just that could also come in handy in TWD world. I don't think it's *that* hard with the right skillsets. Wood gas conversions were a thing during WWII.

The big problem for a sudden PA scenario in the US is that most people lack basic survival skills, much less the mechanical skills to do such complex conversions. And once you get past basic survival, you run into the whole problem of sustainability- going from a modern industrial food production model backwards isn't that easy. Crops and animals are pretty picky- farming and ranching are specialized knowledge. Even tougher with no access to medicine, running water, etc. Oh, and undead. It would be the starvation, lack of clean water, and infection that obliterate you, not the zombos.


But that is pretty boring and depressing, so let's whip out some chainsaw trucks covered in barbed wire!

Re: the cars -

Yeah, I think we're well past 2 years in the comics and the TV show by this point.

Well two years is on top of where the show is right now. They need to finish the Saviors arc then have the jump.

Whether or not the show bothers with that, or includes filler for it ...or even just goes straight to the Whisperers is up In the air. Given the changes it'd be preferable to have the time jump so all the infrastructure can get in place (and the fact that zombies, at least around the settlements are incredibly rare. However, re: the latest letters column, the cities are still packed full of them).



The Walking Dead doing a Crossed +100 thing would be pretty interesting (..or we could just have a Cross +100 show).

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, I think we're well past 2 years in the comics and the TV show by this point.

A side effect of the show making big time skips so the real world ageing of actors (i.e. Chandler Riggs/Carl) make sense. I doubt they've bothered to give much thought to it.

As Wyrmalla says, the comics make much more sense. Much less time has passed by the time they reach Washington, and they shifted to exclusively using horses after the time jump.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Given the changes it'd be preferable to have the time jump so all the infrastructure can get in place (and the fact that zombies, at least around the settlements are incredibly rare. However, re: the latest letters column, the cities are still packed full of them).

From what I gather, it seems like the walkers are actively gathering in cities. I'm reading the latest WD novel Search and Destroy (follows Lilly Caul, the lady from Woodbury who turns on the Governor and takes over Woodbury after the battle at the prison). And there are huge hordes gathering in Atlanta...