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 agnosto wrote:
I contribute GWs recent alacrity in releases to external pressures; the growing popularity of games like warma/hordes and servicable, more inexpensive models such as through Mantic. Based upon the GW belief that any purchase from a 3rd company loses them money, I would assume that Mantic's very existence bugs quite a few people incorporate.

I would like to think that GW finally got its head out of the fething sand and realized that you need to MAKE a high-demand model for people to BUY in order to generate PROFIT, unlike the lack-of-release disaster that Thunderwulves, Hydras, and Tervigons represented, but yeah you're probably right.

This recent talk showcases one of the, in my opinion, extremely negative side-effects of this trial (and its current and future effects) - that of codexes only containing units that GW makes models for.

This side-effect is two-fold; one of game-balance and one of hobby.

Game-balance-wise we might find ourselves in a situation where a codex is decidedly sub-par because the inclusion of various units is withheld because models are not available.
One might say that GW should just postpone the release of the codex then, or that GW should increase their production-capacity (of their stated main motivation; namely models) but in the end it is irrelevant - reasons and motivations aside we are still left with a sub-par codex in this scenario.

Hobby-wise we miss an opportunity to (buy lots of GW kits and) make our own excellent conversions.
While we can always make our own versions of various model (preferably with GW kits if GW have anything to say about it), necessity is the mother of invention. We have greater opportunity to flex our creative muscles and inspire each other when we are, in a way, forced to do it.

I must admit that I am completely and utterly deaf to the cries of those that complain about GW releasing units without accompanying models.
Once people complained that the codex were too bland, small and uninteresting without variety.....and now they whine that GW gave us just what we asked for.
Should you find yourself incapable or unwilling to make models to represent such units.....then learn or live without!

Anyway....I just think we shouldn't be completely blind to some of the unintended consequences this trial might have.

Steelmage99 wrote:
This recent talk showcases one of the, in my opinion, extremely negative side-effects of this trial (and its current and future effects) - that of codexes only containing units that GW makes models for.

This side-effect is two-fold; one of game-balance and one of hobby.

Game-balance-wise we might find ourselves in a situation where a codex is decidedly sub-par because the inclusion of various units is withheld because models are not available.
One might say that GW should just postpone the release of the codex then, or that GW should increase their production-capacity (of their stated main motivation; namely models) but in the end it is irrelevant - reasons and motivations aside we are still left with a sub-par codex in this scenario.

Hobby-wise we miss an opportunity to (buy lots of GW kits and) make our own excellent conversions.
While we can always make our own versions of various model (preferably with GW kits if GW have anything to say about it), necessity is the mother of invention. We have greater opportunity to flex our creative muscles and inspire each other when we are, in a way, forced to do it.

I must admit that I am completely and utterly deaf to the cries of those that complain about GW releasing units without accompanying models.
Once people complained that the codex were too bland, small and uninteresting without variety.....and now they whine that GW gave us just what we asked for.
Should you find yourself incapable or unwilling to make models to represent such units.....then learn or live without!

Anyway....I just think we shouldn't be completely blind to some of the unintended consequences this trial might have.

None of the above consequences bother me at all.

 Dynamix wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To be fair to the fan base and to GW, it is completely legit to report suspected cases of for example recasting.

Of course , especially recasting .

Its interesting that GW customers are being used as a first-line reporting mechanism,

A few years ago they did a single page article at the front of WD asking that people report recasters to them. They quite clearly wanted the support of their readers. I'm not sure what good it did though as the majority of recasts cone from countries that don't care about such things and eBay and others arent proactive about shutting them down.

What I find especially dubious is that sites like Scribt claim to be hosting documents and ask people pay fees to download them. But there's masses of photocopied books on there. They give lip service to telling people not to host copyright material. It's seems to me the majority of stuff people would want to download has been copied and they take a cut on every one. I'm ambivalent about out of print materials being hosted online, like the Rogue Trader books. They are in small supply, will never be reprinted and have large collectors values on some of them. I have no moral issue with people passing PDFs of these around. But I so take issue with companies letting people host them but asking for a fee to download them.

Still, for another topic perhaps. CHS aren't recasting so it's off topic, apologies!

Steelmage99 wrote:
I must admit that I am completely and utterly deaf to the cries of those that complain about GW releasing units without accompanying models.
Once people complained that the codex were too bland, small and uninteresting without variety.....and now they whine that GW gave us just what we asked for.

I think there is a big difference between having a couple kits that can be blended together for some highly customizable models that will fit a broad template of unit discreptions...

For example, the Chaos Space Marines 10 man box and the Possessed Marines box could create any sort of Chaos unit you wanted. They could be Chaos, Possessed, God-specific, generic, any sort of Legion (aside from 1k Sons with their Egypt hats), and the customizability greatly increased just by tossing in the appropriate heavy weapons bits or Loyalist jump packs, or whatever with minimal greenstuff work.

Just my experience, but the Chaos Terminator Lord/Sorcerer, the 5 man plastic Chaos Terms, and the CSM and Possessed boxes were the height of modeling achievement. I could make very nearly whatever I wanted with those kits and Greenstuff. I bought so many of those kits just because they were solid well-rounded kits.

...and releasing an incredibly gameplay influential/powerful/in-demand niche model with no rules, like the Tcav or Tyrannofex. When Tcav rules were released, they were obviously one of the most powerful units in the book/meta and also one of the most in-demand. Your only option was to buy a monopose pewter character model for $55 or buy 3rd party/convert. The lack of an acceptable base model forced many people into other venues. GW could have created a 3-man Tcav box and made boatloads of cash. Instead they made vanilla SW Terminators.

My sticking point is that it's not this big either/or fallacy GW tries to portray it as. They could, in all honesty, have development people who play the game and are accustomed to the nuances of the armies look at a model/unit and go 'hey production folks, this is what people are going to want, we should make kits for this because that's what gamers will focus on' while STILL throwing in a couple venomthrope-like entries that players can build/convert.

Let's face it, Chapterhouse didn't find its niche producing 'Nurgle' Terminators or 'Khorne' Marines. They're there because GW never produced a timely release for high-demand models.

Steelmage99 wrote:
This recent talk showcases one of the, in my opinion, extremely negative side-effects of this trial (and its current and future effects) - that of codexes only containing units that GW makes models for.

This side-effect is two-fold; one of game-balance and one of hobby.

Game-balance-wise we might find ourselves in a situation where a codex is decidedly sub-par because the inclusion of various units is withheld because models are not available.
One might say that GW should just postpone the release of the codex then, or that GW should increase their production-capacity (of their stated main motivation; namely models) but in the end it is irrelevant - reasons and motivations aside we are still left with a sub-par codex in this scenario.

Except for the part where GW designers and writers have confirmed that units only get rules written for them once a model has been designed to some degree. Iirc that was a quote from a Q&A done at some GW event last year or the year before. They straight out said "designers come up with a new model that they like, and then we write rules for it into the new book".

So arguably GW already had the Tervigon figured out and ready to go, but decided not to release it with the book, likely chalking it up to trying to spread out sales across time instead of getting spikes like they do, a tactic which bit them right in the ass.

 sourclams wrote:


...and releasing an incredibly gameplay influential/powerful/in-demand niche model with no rules, like the Tcav or Tyrannofex. When Tcav rules were released, they were obviously one of the most powerful units in the book/meta and also one of the most in-demand. Your only option was to buy a monopose pewter character model for $55 or buy 3rd party/convert. The lack of an acceptable base model forced many people into other venues. GW could have created a 3-man Tcav box and made boatloads of cash. Instead they made vanilla SW Terminators.

I do not disagree with you that GW are exceedingly bad at judging which models they REALLY need to release, especially with really no-brainer units (as mentioned Thunderwolf Cav. and Tervigons springs to mind). I do not vilify any person that buy from 3rd-party companies.

I am worried about the potential future were the Unit X (with the potential impact on the game that Thunderwolf Cavalry and Tervigons had) is designed, playtested, found good and necessary, and then deliberately removed from the codex because GW is afraid that 3rd-party companies will make a model before GW does.
I am worried about the potential future where the Games Designer says; "Cool! I am going to write codex Z. I have a ton of ideas!", and then some of those units are removed from the codex - not for reasons of size of the codex and not for reasons of "killing your darlings" - but because GW can't produce the models fast enough, and GW grasp of reality is overruled by their paranoia.

PS. Please distinguish between "unit"(the entry in the codex) and "model" (the plastic thing we play with).

As Aerethan said, models drive rules in GW land, not the other way around. If designer wants to put in a unit, there will already be a model that can fit that unit.

 Aerethan wrote:

Except for the part where GW designers and writers have confirmed that units only get rules written for them once a model has been designed to some degree. Iirc that was a quote from a Q&A done at some GW event last year or the year before. They straight out said "designers come up with a new model that they like, and then we write rules for it into the new book".

Yes, it sounds like the future I am worried about is indeed already here.

You guys shouldn't really talk as if that was always the case.
Had I the patience I could look through my old (but not that old) WDs where JJ expresses exactly the opposite - that they, in order to avoid the blandness of codexes like Codex Eldar and Codex Dark Angels (old ones obviously), would happily produce units without models, and that they expected people to convert those.
But this was all pre-Chapterhouse vs. GW...

I agree that it's an ass backwards way of doing it.

By writing the rules first, it would allow far more time to playtest them into balance while the design on the model is being done. It takes far less time to print the book than it does to produce the models and molding.

Any gaps in the WFB/40k markets are there because GW allows them to be there. GW had a bits service, and dissolved it. The question I have is how long could GW have floated Bitz with the amount of money they spend hunting down 3rd party bitz makers? I'd wager this suit alone could have floated it for a few years, and it would have closed a large part of the 3rd party market.

Is it that they are designing the full model beforehand (art/sculpt) or that the the design team has a concept for it first?

Design Team: 'We want to do a bug that poops out more bugs!'
Game Team: 'Brilliant! We'll get some rules up for that!'

Steelmage99 wrote:
I am worried about the potential future were the Unit X (with the potential impact on the game that Thunderwolf Cavalry and Tervigons had) is designed, playtested, found good and necessary, and then deliberately removed from the codex because GW is afraid that 3rd-party companies will make a model before GW does.

I dont' mean to sound adversarial, but, just throwing this out there, if a company can have complete control around ideation, development, production, and release schedule, and somehow the broader marketplace still beats them to the punch with a product that market participants feel is as much a value for the price, then I can't see how that company justifiably exists.

Just me.

Steelmage99 wrote:
But this was all pre-Chapterhouse vs. GW...

So was the Tervigon. And there was talk about that having a model for years before it was finally released.

It will be interesting to see what the jury makes of all of this. GW came up with ideas and illustrations. CH then made models and used GWs names. GW claims that the use of the names was in violation of the law, and that the sculpts are a copyright violation. Many of the CH models do not look like the GW illustrations. The Tervigon is an example. Further, most of the CH products are designed to be used with GW products, so this certainly undermines GWs claim that it cost them sales. I don't think that the jury will be out for long on this case. They certainly would not want to stick around court deliberating, after sitting in court hearing the case for two weeks.

 sourclams wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I am worried about the potential future were the Unit X (with the potential impact on the game that Thunderwolf Cavalry and Tervigons had) is designed, playtested, found good and necessary, and then deliberately removed from the codex because GW is afraid that 3rd-party companies will make a model before GW does.

I dont' mean to sound adversarial, but, just throwing this out there, if a company can have complete control around ideation, development, production, and release schedule, and somehow the broader marketplace still beats them to the punch with a product that market participants feel is as much a value for the price, then I can't see how that company justifiably exists.

Just me.

I do not disagree with you, yet that is exactly what GW seems to be doing.

All this mention of Tervigons and Thunderwolves, and still GW hasn't released a Mycetic Spore model for Tyranids. Plenty of third party "Alien Pod" models exist (I can recall at least five), but still no official model.

Chapterhouse took advantage of the lack of an Eldar Jetbike Farseer model, and it has sold. Still no model from GW. Chapterhouse took advantage of the lack of Tyranid Shrikes. Still no GW model. Nobody out there is making a Tyranid Prime model, and GW is sitting here twiddling their thumbs while Eldar and Tyranids will/did get a new codex before their viable HQ units are still missing models.

You're all speculating that rules-come-after-models nowadays and such, but there are still tons of models missing from things that are very viable game-wise. If gW honestly started on this model-before-rules paradigm, then it'd be more likely they'll fill up the gaps before another company jumps on it.

Point is, when Chapterhouse released the Tervigon and Eldar Jetseer, and Mycetic Spore, there was no announced intention from GW to produce those models in the first place. It's been years and still no Jetseer or Spore. GW isn't losing money on these kits; they cannot feel entitled to the money as they seem to be claiming.

People are beating GW to the production of models in spite of GW controlling every part of the unit's conception. They're creating the demand for something, but then there is no knowledge on whether GW has any intention of filling that demand. They're not entitled to the money people spend on the Chapterhouse Mycetic Spore.

---

As an unrelated aside, I'm interested that GW officially acknowledged the existence of Scibor and MaxMini and all them.

I wonder if CHS was picked because it was the one that skirted the "rules" the most and was a bit slap dash in how it labelled stuff. I wonder if this was meant to be a nice easy slam dunk so that GW could then go after Scibor, Zenith et al (not that it would have been easy). Legal threats with a won case behind them and a threat to drown them in legal fees would have been quite a good tactic.

I always wondered why it went straight to a legal filing rather than a C&D (if memory serves).

Not quite going that way now of-course.

 Aerethan wrote:
BOLS summary of the case this week.

-GW considers the following naming schemes to be acceptable for the aftermarket, applying to all products that interact with their own 40K products:
PRODUCT NAME: "compatible with 28mm science fiction miniatures"
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: "compatable with Games Workshop [insert exact GW kit title]"

Wait, so is GW supporting the aftermarket or what...?

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
BOLS summary of the case this week.

-GW considers the following naming schemes to be acceptable for the aftermarket, applying to all products that interact with their own 40K products:
PRODUCT NAME: "compatible with 28mm science fiction miniatures"
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: "compatable with Games Workshop [insert exact GW kit title]"

Wait, so is GW supporting the aftermarket or what...?

They accept that an aftermarket exists, but the declared that they aren't happy about it, which is fine and dandy. I don't like that my company has competition, but we accept the fact that they exist. The difference is that we set out to make ourselves stand out as the best instead of trying to make the competition die out.

As for the naming structure, it is not up to GW to dictate how fair use of their trademarks works. They are in no position to demand their marks get treated any "better" than any other company out there.

"Shoulder Pad compatible with Warhammer 40,000 Space Marines" is a completely legal and acceptable fair use of said marks as a product name.

Got it, wise as always. Thank you!

 Aerethan wrote:


-Said that "anytime CHS made money, that was money GW should have made"

Well.. I suppose they have to say that? Can't imagine anyone actually believes it though

-GW has 200+ casefiles on organizations and individuals it is investigating for potential legal action against.

This, is why it is important for everyone that CHS win, or at least GW don't get all of their own way. You have to imagine that this is only the beginning, and that anything that holds even the slightest resemblance to what GW produces could potentially fall under the axe. The likes of Scibor and Gamezone Dwarves? Mantic? Why not.

-CHS disclosed that its total gross revenue before expenses for a roughly 4 year period in question was @$400,000
-Valluci took home $3000 a month from CHS, while his overseas partner took home $2000 per month.
.

This should possibly go in CHS favour? Peanuts in the scheme of things.

 Pacific wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:


-Said that "anytime CHS made money, that was money GW should have made"

Well.. I suppose they have to say that? Can't imagine anyone actually believes it though

Everybody except GW knows that every-time Chapterhouse made money from selling an add-on kit, GW made money from selling the kit needed for it.

 fullheadofhair wrote:
I always wondered why it went straight to a legal filing rather than a C&D (if memory serves).
.

Actually, If memory serves..(and I am not saying it does)...

The CHS guy in his rebuttal/rant right after the suit was filed, (accidentally?) said that he had recieved C&D's but he ignored them because he didnt believe that US copyright law supported GW's (UK law) view of things. He didnt say how many C&Ds he had ignored but he did indicate plural....

Now where all this "Without a C&D" business came from I dont know but the guy himself said he got them...

Steelmage99 wrote:

 sourclams wrote:


...and releasing an incredibly gameplay influential/powerful/in-demand niche model with no rules, like the Tcav or Tyrannofex. When Tcav rules were released, they were obviously one of the most powerful units in the book/meta and also one of the most in-demand. Your only option was to buy a monopose pewter character model for $55 or buy 3rd party/convert. The lack of an acceptable base model forced many people into other venues. GW could have created a 3-man Tcav box and made boatloads of cash. Instead they made vanilla SW Terminators.

I do not disagree with you that GW are exceedingly bad at judging which models they REALLY need to release, especially with really no-brainer units (as mentioned Thunderwolf Cav. and Tervigons springs to mind). I do not vilify any person that buy from 3rd-party companies.

I am worried about the potential future were the Unit X (with the potential impact on the game that Thunderwolf Cavalry and Tervigons had) is designed, playtested, found good and necessary, and then deliberately removed from the codex because GW is afraid that 3rd-party companies will make a model before GW does.
I am worried about the potential future where the Games Designer says; "Cool! I am going to write codex Z. I have a ton of ideas!", and then some of those units are removed from the codex - not for reasons of size of the codex and not for reasons of "killing your darlings" - but because GW can't produce the models fast enough, and GW grasp of reality is overruled by their paranoia.

PS. Please distinguish between "unit"(the entry in the codex) and "model" (the plastic thing we play with).

I understand your feelings.

However GW with its annual turnover of £130 million should not have such a problem if they planned properly.

If they can't plan properly, or hire someone to do it for them, players and 3rd party companies should not be the ones to suffer.

I've been following this and I've never read anything from CHS anywhere that indicated they ever received a C&D. Maybe I missed something so a source showing any CHS representative made such a statement would be appreciated. <- I'm not being snarky I am concerned I missed something.

It was one rant, right after the suit got filed about how GW was overstepping because UK law doesnt apply in the US (and on and on et al...) I dont even remember what forum it was on, (Here or BoK I think) and he clammed up right after as he very shortly got a lawyer and stopped making comments. You wont find anything recent as counsel would have stopped that as it is an admission of some sort and lawyers dont want any actual facts out there so it is easier to muddy the water.

CHS did receive a C&D that just wasn't actionable for a variety of reasons... First was that it was sent by someone that wasn't recognized as an authorized authority... Second the C&D wasnt well written simply telling CHS shutdown because of a believed infringement without specifying what GW believed infringed.

GW's initial communication simply informed CHS to cease to exist, for generally using trademarks they claim; no more no less.

As far as the sender was concerned they were simply a legal secretary; that is someone who couldn't actually commit to threats of legal action... As it is, you would generally have someone who can make those threats sign off on the letter even if the same secretary prepared it. While this warranted additional communication it didn't neccisarily warrant an immediate end to a business.

I did find it amusing reading the transcripts where both sides are trying to bar certain things from being heard by the jury because the facts might be damaging to their cases.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Game-balance-wise we might find ourselves in a situation where a codex is decidedly sub-par because the inclusion of various units is withheld because models are not available.
One might say that GW should just postpone the release of the codex then, or that GW should increase their production-capacity (of their stated main motivation; namely models) but in the end it is irrelevant - reasons and motivations aside we are still left with a sub-par codex in this scenario.

There is absolutely no reason that the lack of a new model has to mean an underpowered codex. The effectivness of a unit is not tied solely to how new the model is.

Hobby-wise we miss an opportunity to (buy lots of GW kits and) make our own excellent conversions.
While we can always make our own versions of various model (preferably with GW kits if GW have anything to say about it), necessity is the mother of invention. We have greater opportunity to flex our creative muscles and inspire each other when we are, in a way, forced to do it.

There is nothing stopping hobbyists from making conversions just because there is an official model out. Hell, in many cases, it's the existence of an official model that people don't much like that drives the converting.

What the move to only including units for which there are models does do is result in a situation where those who are interested in the modeling side of the hobby still have all of the freedom they had before, while those who aren't have access to a complete codex.

Everybody wins.


The fact that it took this court case to convince GW (a company that prides itself on being all about the miniatures, rather than the rules) to actually release a full range of miniatures to go with their rules is ludicrous beyond words.

 aka_mythos wrote:
CHS did receive a C&D that just wasn't actionable for a variety of reasons... First was that it was sent by someone that wasn't recognized as an authorized authority... Second the C&D wasnt well written simply telling CHS shutdown because of a believed infringement without specifying what GW believed infringed.

GW's initial communication simply informed CHS to cease to exist, for generally using trademarks they claim; no more no less.

As far as the sender was concerned they were simply a legal secretary; that is someone who couldn't actually commit to threats of legal action... As it is, you would generally have someone who can make those threats sign off on the letter even if the same secretary prepared it. While this warranted additional communication it didn't neccisarily warrant an immediate end to a business.

And, lets be real here... CHS KNEW what they were infringing. If nothing else, us common people were telling them, "Dude! At least change the name to "Lizzard sect armored warriors" like Scribor does.... The continued use of (claimed*) copyrighted names was a poke in the eye of GW and forced them to bring suit.

*The court has sifted that list of copyrighted terms for actual copyrights and has come up with some answers... I do not mean to re-hash that bit....