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Given the number of counts, it might take a while just to read the jury's verdict, which would explain the delay.


And to track down all the lawyers from the bar down the street and get them into court


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BOLS has the verdict here:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict


Automatically Appended Next Post:

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Based on that, looks like GW won some battles but lost the war. 25k in damages but CHS won on the shoulder pads.

Verdict: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict

There's more still coming, but CHS seems to have won the majority of claims including the shoulder pads, but have been ordered to pay GW $25k. So CHS still seems to be OK to continue with some items removed, and GW has lost a lot of money.

Without knowing the full details it looks like CHS generally came off the better but GW probably have enough to spin it as a total victory for everything they said.

Hm... Combining these two quotes from Larry Vela:

-The ruling of no infringement for the use of the underlying shape and size of GW shoulderpads is now on the legal record.
-Possibly more important is not guilty verdicts on the use of GW trademarks and terms on the CHS website.
-While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.

Damages Awarded:
CHS ordered to pay GW damages of $25,000 USD

It might mean that the 3rd party market will be a lot more open now, but that chapterhouse will fold under that fine. Without knowing his company I can't imagine he has 25,000$ to spend on fines, and will have to go into bankruptcy.

Perhaps CHS will be a martyr for the rest of the 3rd party bit makers...

We have a verdict!

Some initial notes:
This is a Jury Verdict, and has not yet become a Final Judgement

Breaking down the counts along the different categories we have:

Copyright Claims
160 claims alleged against CHS
-GW won on 1/3 of the claims, including items such as CHS' Powerfists
-CHS won on 2/3 of the claims, including the use of the underlying shape and size of GW Shoulderpads.

General Trademark Claims
9 claims alleged against CHS
-CHS won all 9 claims, including either no infringement, or fair use of the GW trademarks on CHS' website.

Disputed Trademark Claims
21 disputed trademark claims alleged against CHS
CHS won 11 claims
GW won 10 claims

GW Trademarks ruled "Previously Used in Commerce" Claims
61 claims alleged against CHS
CHS won 35 claims
GW won 27

Notable Trends and Individual Products Under Dispute
CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

CHS won on some individual products including:
-Jetbike
-Super-heavy walker model
-Lizard Ogre

Damages Awarded:
CHS ordered to pay GW damages of $25,000 USD

Both sides may appeal the ruling.

Thoughts and Implications:
It's looking like however CHS as an entity comes out of this ruling, the implications for the 3rd party industry are profound.

-The ruling of no infringement for the use of the underlying shape and size of GW shoulderpads is now on the legal record.
-Possibly more important is not guilty verdicts on the use of GW trademarks and terms on the CHS website.
-While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.

More as we get it...

From the guy's comments on BOLS:

-While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.

This is the clincher, I think what most people wanted to know without the nitty gritty and name calling; there are still going to be 3rd party parts for Games Workshop games/miniatures, and now a level precedent has been established that means GW can't just flippantly throw C&D letters at anyone and everyone.

What justifies the damages that GW were awarded? See, while GW don't like people doing anything to their stuff, I don't see how they suffered any loss due to CHS other than all the money they three at this case. $25K damages for a case they've blown what, hundreds of thousands on?

BOLs seems to be slowing down, so I thought I'd grab this before their server melts.

It's nothing but the first post from the link provided.

Yeah, I think establishing a safe harbour for 3rd parties is the last thing GW wanted to come out of this.


So, in my jurisdiction the next big battle would be over who pays whose legal costs - although I gather down in the states that's not necessarily the case.

 Gorlack wrote:

It might mean that the 3rd party market will be a lot more open now, but that chapterhouse will fold under that fine. Without knowing his company I can't imagine he has 25,000$ to spend on fines, and will have to go into bankruptcy.

Perhaps CHS will be a martyr for the rest of the 3rd party bit makers...

They were making $100k/year according to one of the reports, so $25k is 3 months income. Maybe that's all changed now, but I don't think the fine will sink them.

I'm sure crowd funding could easily take care of the fine though, I'd happily kick in a few bucks.

Me too.
Should Chapterhouse set up a fundraiser I will kick in some too.

Very interesting! Thanks for the summaries so far, guys. So doomseer No, shoulderpads Yes. Odd that powerfists didn't get cleared, though?

I can't believe the jurors sifted through all that that fast.

czakk wrote:
So, in my jurisdiction the next big battle would be over who pays whose legal costs - although I gather down in the states that's not necessarily the case.

Yeah, barring a few scenarios involving assertions of bad faith litigation tactics, each side is generally responsible for its own costs. And given the apparent mixed nature of the decision, the only obvious place to address legal fees are around the actions that Moskin was already sanctioned for (and I believe the court addressed the costs issue as part of that ruling).

So for millions of dollars in legal fees, Games Workshop receives 25,000 dollars and safe harbor for 3rd party sites to not only sell shoulder pads/other bits--but to use Games Workshop trademark "Eldar, Space Marine compatible bits" on their sites? Sounds like a catastrophe to me.


What happens if Games Workshop sues Moskin and company for malpractice and wins?

morkian wrote:
Without knowing the full details it looks like CHS generally came off the better but GW probably have enough to spin it as a total victory for everything they said.

It'll be hard for even GW to spin spending 1 million dollars to prove that anyone in the wargaming industry can do this:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Herzlos wrote:

 Gorlack wrote:

It might mean that the 3rd party market will be a lot more open now, but that chapterhouse will fold under that fine. Without knowing his company I can't imagine he has 25,000$ to spend on fines, and will have to go into bankruptcy.

Perhaps CHS will be a martyr for the rest of the 3rd party bit makers...

They were making $100k/year according to one of the reports, so $25k is 3 months income. Maybe that's all changed now, but I don't think the fine will sink them.

I'm sure crowd funding could easily take care of the fine though, I'd happily kick in a few bucks.

In profits or in money going in before costs etc? Because there is a biiig difference

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
What justifies the damages that GW were awarded? See, while GW don't like people doing anything to their stuff, I don't see how they suffered any loss due to CHS other than all the money they three at this case. $25K damages for a case they've blown what, hundreds of thousands on?

Damages likely were awarded on the basis of similar products that CHS might have produced to GW that "stole" customers as a result.

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

I think that probably means the "Dark Elf Arch Tortress" miniature that CHS sells. The thingy with the arms.

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Not sure if GW wants to take Disney/Marvel on about that trademark with Thor 2 coming out soon.

darkreever wrote:

Noir wrote:Wait. so instead of just not buying there stuff, like a normal person would do if they dislike something. You think screw case law, GW should win anyways. Hope you never end up in front of a jury with poeple like you on it.

Wow, mind putting your torch and pitchfork down or should I help you put that noose around my neck?

And nothing personal but I would rather a jury of myself than a jury of you. You and I do not know each other, but you seem to feel the need to jump down my throat and assume you know me and how I think; and while I don't know you any better I most certainly do not want to be judged by others who will make a judgment of me after all of two sentences.

How is wishing you a jury that looks at the law, over there personal opinion a bad thing. Law should be used to enforce personal views, guess we just see it differently.

It means if you want to make some Dark Elf figures for tabletop wargames you will have to call them Night Elves or Swart Elves or something like that.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It means if you want to make some Dark Elf figures for tabletop wargames you will have to call them Night Elves or Swart Elves or something like that.

I'm very curious to see how the final ruling actually reads, for precisely this reason. Hasbro owns D&D, which makes miniatures, and "Drow" == "Dark Elf" for a really long time.

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Use a different term than "Dark" to describe your elves? "Drow" is taken, fyi.

timd wrote:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict

Yeah, we know!

Is there something specific there that you wanted to point out or discuss in detail?

 Gorlack wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Gorlack wrote:

It might mean that the 3rd party market will be a lot more open now, but that chapterhouse will fold under that fine. Without knowing his company I can't imagine he has 25,000$ to spend on fines, and will have to go into bankruptcy.

Perhaps CHS will be a martyr for the rest of the 3rd party bit makers...

They were making $100k/year according to one of the reports, so $25k is 3 months income. Maybe that's all changed now, but I don't think the fine will sink them.

I'm sure crowd funding could easily take care of the fine though, I'd happily kick in a few bucks.

In profits or in money going in before costs etc? Because there is a biiig difference

I think it was revenue rather than profit, so it's a significant figure but I don't think it'll be enough to force them into bankrupcy.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It means if you want to make some Dark Elf figures for tabletop wargames you will have to call them Night Elves or Swart Elves or something like that.

I think it's a reference to a specific CHS product, not to "dark elf" in general.

So GW made back equivalent of around 333 landraiders in fines? (EDIT NOTE: I screwed up the decimal earlier so 333 is roughly correct now instead of off by factor of 10)

That said, I think the 25k in fines will put off some potential garage/hobby shed manufacturers who won't want to chance it.

Understood the case lays down a path for 3rd party stuff---but the bottom line loss in time and fines will help keep the masses from getting too high in their aspirations.

Now then, what are the chance of appeal on either/both sides?

privateer4hire wrote:
So GW made back equivalent of around 3333 landraiders in fines?

Well you have to subtract the likely 28,000 land raiders for legal fees