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 judgedoug wrote:
AFAIK you can pay judgments for damages over time. And I believe CHS will be getting a lot of people ordering bits now, as support. When GW released the Eldar, and I bought the book, I offset it by ordering the Farseer and Warlock kits from CHS

I will be placing an order for a couple things i have been holding off on tonight. Hooray for us. A bit painful for CHS but i think they will overcome with community assistance.

GW isn't going to say a damn thing about this. Not to the pulblic.

 BryllCream wrote:

Syraphym wrote:
I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

It's not a win for GW. Nor has it stripped them of their IP. It's irrelevent really to anyone who doesn't shop at Chapterhouse, since GW have already stopped releasing rules without models (a concequence of the case rather than the verdict).

Actually, it's pretty big for people who have been sitting on the sidelines wanting to sell their "after market" creations. This case provides a some clarity on what can be done and what would infringe.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's relevant for other bits makers out there - since GW is unlikely to shoot first with C&Ds now..

I don't see this as being the case at all. GW will still fire off C&Ds each and every time they feel something touches "their" h-h-hobby. Clarity will simply allow after market guys to be bolder in certain areas.

 BryllCream wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

Sending a nice clear message to people that if they get successful enough at piggy backing GW's IP, they'll be rewarded with a partnership deal? From GW's point of view they're trying to stop CHS from profitting off GW's intellectual property. You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you? This is how GW would see it...please do not flame me

Nobody 'stole' anything. You are aware that the overwhelming majority of CHS catalogue requires a purchase from GW to be of any use whatsoever?

How very dare they! I mean, spotting a gap in the market and exploiting it, despite the fact the multimillion pound PLC who had total control for over a quarter of a century utterly failed to capitalise on the very same opportunity!

Any sign of a Final Judgement yet? Or any more documents?

There is no risk for GW to send out as many C&D letters as before. The risk begins when they decide to pursue legal remedy. Also, they as well as Chapterhouse have some idea on what is defendable, so they could just wait until someone crosses that particular line, then get aggressive.

As far as people gloating over all the money GW spent, it wouldnt surprise me if most or even all of that is tax deductible as a business expense but I am just guessing.

25K is probably rather painful to CHS but I bet they can weather that if they were financially healthy before. You cant even buy a new SUV for that price.

 BryllCream wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

Sending a nice clear message to people that if they get successful enough at piggy backing GW's IP, they'll be rewarded with a partnership deal? From GW's point of view they're trying to stop CHS from profitting off GW's intellectual property. You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you? This is how GW would see it...please do not flame me

I'm not flaming you at all. Your position (and GW's for that matter) just doesn't mesh with US IP law, no matter how much you think things should be different.

Your "stole your tv" analogy is completely inaccurate. CHS didn't steal anything. As has been repeated over, and over, and over, and over (ad nauseum) in this thread, it's perfectly OK to make aftermarket parts for another manufacturer's product. It has been for decades. And, the trial shows that this interpretation was largely correct.

czakk wrote:
[quote=Agamemnon2 355433 5739813 9f36407ead0629fc166f14dde7970f68.jpg

Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

No. Fines and penalties are never tax deductible.

 BryllCream wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

Sending a nice clear message to people that if they get successful enough at piggy backing GW's IP, they'll be rewarded with a partnership deal? From GW's point of view they're trying to stop CHS from profitting off GW's intellectual property. You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you? This is how GW would see it...please do not flame me

The problem now, from a possible GW perspective, is that by not having a means of licensing they have now a nice clear message sent that you can piggy back all you want in most of the regards they were trying to protect..

Having licensing available - not just to CHS but to others - would have meant having a secondary revenue stream from companies that would much rather pay a licensing fee than spend time in court, and could have a nice snazzy logo of 'officially licensed from GW', like Armorcast and Epic Cast of old.

In some regards it is similar to the Kingdoms of Kalamar situation in regards to OGL and GSL licensing.

The OGL and D20 STL gave a nice logo to announce compatibility and a safe harbor to produce legally sanctioned material in support of the game, and allowed WotC to demonstrate control of their properties without risking money on court cases.

The 4e GSL tried to bring all properties back under WotC's direct control, and reduce the size of the safe harbor - but a 4e compatible version of KoK was still produced, without the use of that license.

Where the D20 OGL and d20 STL traded some freedoms by manufacturers they allowed other freedoms in their place.

The GSL, by comparison, gave nothing in return for following the edicts of the license - so there was a bloody great hole that allowed more savvy companies to produce products without WotC being able to exercise any control whatsoever.

WotC, to their credit, did not try to take on a case that they would likely fail. Kenzer & Co still has the 4e compatible KoK available.

Back to GW, rather than having a license that would have allowed at least a semblance of control over the contested IP GW has now lost both the semblance and actuality of control.

A Pyrrhic victory at best.

GW's besetting sin in this instance was hubris - and was something that they could have avoided.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The problem now, from a possible GW perspective, is that by not having a means of licensing they have now a nice clear message sent that you can piggy back all you want in most of the regards they were trying to protect..

Picking up on this point, what actual products were ruled in CHSs favour? Was there any pattern to it or was it on a case-by-case basis? If it's the latter then that doesn't set much of a precedant, other than the specific products that were ruled in CHS's favour.

 BryllCream wrote:
You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you?

If you're in the business of stealing appliances, and the dude who stole your tv shows that he can make a decent return stealing tvs from places that you couldn't be bothered stealing from yourself, then yes, you very well might.

 BryllCream wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The problem now, from a possible GW perspective, is that by not having a means of licensing they have now a nice clear message sent that you can piggy back all you want in most of the regards they were trying to protect..

Picking up on this point, what actual products were ruled in CHSs favour? Was there any pattern to it or was it on a case-by-case basis? If it's the latter then that doesn't set much of a precedant, other than the specific products that were ruled in CHS's favour.

The first, most obvious, and most important has been known since before the jury trial - GW does not have sole right of manufacture for Space Marine shoulder pads.

Other than that...

We know that Jetbike has been lost as GW IP.

The walker has been lost

The Lizard Ogre.

All three were poor choices for GW to pursue - there were clear precedents that predated GW's incorporation, let alone WHFB or WH40K.

I am looking forward to seeing the specifics as well.

Much of this could have been avoided by having a 3PP license in place, much like GW had in the past, and that they still have in regards to role playing products.

And, personal opinion only here, I actually suspect that in the long term GW losing their claimed properties in so many regards will actually be healthy for the company - that the 3PP products help the industry, and broaden the financial base of GW.

Short term... I expect that GW stock may take a hit, but that it will be recovered in a relatively short time.

In short.. This is Great News!... though I doubt that GW will agree with that, at least in the short term.

The Auld Grump... I seem to be overly fond of the word 'short' in the last few sentences....

Didn't CHS have a warchest funded before they obtained Pro Bono? I wonder if there's any money left in that?

Cheers

Andrew

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I new this would blow up on gw face sooner or later!!!!!!!

Bring on:
Heat weapon compatible with space marines
Rocket launcher compatible with space marine
Flamethrower compatible with spacemarines
Legion X shoulderpad compatible with spacemarines

Ad fething infinitum

This added to the advent of 3d printing and gw days are numbered

xxvaderxx wrote:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I new this would blow up on gw face sooner or later!!!!!!!

Bring on:
Heat weapon compatible with space marines
Rocket launcher compatible with space marine
Flamethrower compatible with spacemarines
Legion X shoulderpad compatible with spacemarines

Ad fething infinitum

This added to the advent of 3d printing and gw days are numbered

Sorry, but the cock is crowing a little soon here. We don't have the final judgement, we don't have the list of what GW did and didn't lose and we certainly don't know if GW is going to fold under. They didn't lose on everything and frankly we don't know how bad they really did lose.

Also, if GW goes under so do all those other little minature companies who can be affected by the same problems.

Oh, and this ruling only works in the US. All other court cases will have to be handled in their respective country.

So what are you crowing about again?

Heh, Heh, Heh.... Looks like the old man in the walker called it correctly to the results (at this moment) concerning the verdict. It is not Quite over yet, at least what I know from experience dealing with court cases.

Pyrrhic victory for Games Workshop? Not sure. I personally believe that they got more than they should in their verdict so (in my eyes) it is a win for them. I'm expecting once this court case is over there be more C&D letters going out to 3rd party companies. I'm also expecting their stock to go up soon and the massive spin doctoring to commence.

In some regards it is similar to the Kingdoms of Kalamar situation in regards to OGL and GSL licensing....

Again posted this concept previously on this topic, though it is nice for others to show people the concept of OSL licensing.

I agree with Mr Longwalker.

GW seem to have won on a surprising number of points, but without the details we can't know the impact.

I am disappointed about the Doomseer and Torturess. I see why the jury would have come to that decision, though.

However if GW will now produce a female Farseer, it will make a lot of players happy.

xxvaderxx wrote:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I new this would blow up on gw face sooner or later!!!!!!!

Bring on:
Heat weapon compatible with space marines
Rocket launcher compatible with space marine
Flamethrower compatible with spacemarines
Legion X shoulderpad compatible with spacemarines

Ad fething infinitum

This added to the advent of 3d printing and gw days are numbered

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can. Like seriously? What's going to happen to your hobby if GW goes under? Or do you not even play, and are just going around spouting the GW haterade just 'cuz you simply don't like them, and want to show everyone that fact? And I think we already established in the other thread that 3D printing isn't going to put GW out of business. Also as ClockworkZion stated, if it kills GW, it'll kill everything else.

It won't kill GW. If anything, it will help them so long as people have to buy GW kits to put the 3rd party conversion parts on.

What would be a problem is if people could make entire Space Marine lookalikes cheaper, but that is not the effect of the verdict if I have understood it properly. That is, GW seem to have lost on things like the shape and size of the shoulder-pad, and generic SF names like jetbike, and they won on things like the Doomseer which are much closer to whole core products.

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

In contrast, UBS was fined £160m, ~2% of their yearly revenue, for fixing the LIBOR rates. Chapterhouse has hardly got a slap on the wrist here, even if they get some sort of crowd sourcing thing going.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a huge cost for GW but not for CHS. But spending (very conservatively) $1,000,000 and a lot of good will to get $25,000 in damages is a pretty poor return on investment.

Is there any idea of how the figure of $25,000 was arrived at?

Herzlos wrote:


I don't think anyone is saying it's a huge cost for GW but not for CHS. But spending (very conservatively) $1,000,000 and a lot of good will to get $25,000 in damages is a pretty poor return on investment.

GW spent several times more than $1 million... CHS their representation spent in the ballpark of 3-4 times that... And they estimated based on the seniority of GW's attorney's and all the travel involving their witnesses GW spent more than they did. GW's legal team was also larger. This is the most expensive pro-bono case ever for the firm representing CHS.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


I don't think anyone is saying it's a huge cost for GW but not for CHS. But spending (very conservatively) $1,000,000 and a lot of good will to get $25,000 in damages is a pretty poor return on investment.

GW spent several times more than $1 million... CHS their representation spent in the ballpark of 3-4 times that... And they estimated based on the seniority of GW's attorney's and all the travel involving their witnesses GW spent more than they did. This is the most expensive pro-bono case ever for the firm representing CHS.

Gotta say though, it's a pretty landmark case, and it probably looks good for them too.

There were several other firms waiting on the side wanting the opportunity for that glory too. This is only to say many firms feared an outcome where completely GW won. Even with 2/3 win, CHS will likely feel pressure to appeal.

Are there going to be any taxes owed for that Pro Bono legal help? That could be a real bitch if there is.

JWhex wrote:
There is no risk for GW to send out as many C&D letters as before. The risk begins when they decide to pursue legal remedy. Also, they as well as Chapterhouse have some idea on what is defendable, so they could just wait until someone crosses that particular line, then get aggressive.

Yes.. I suppose they might be a bit more wary, in that there will always be a chance that the garage-business in question will 'call their bluff' as it were, and get legal representation. While GW can no doubt afford another dozen cases like this, it's the uprooting of their main design staff and personnel to go and sit in court-rooms for days on end and no doubt weeks of preparation for it. I can't imagine any of those guys being particularly fond of having to do this all again...

And, to those who are speaking of winning and losing? As always, there are only one group of winners, and that is the legal companies involved in this whole sorry affair - those who have profited from a company simply not understanding its own product and its position in the industry and wider scheme of things, and its inability to simply communicate and come to some sort of compromise without wasting years of their lives (and no doubt getting a few grey hairs) worrying about this sort of gak.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


I don't think anyone is saying it's a huge cost for GW but not for CHS. But spending (very conservatively) $1,000,000 and a lot of good will to get $25,000 in damages is a pretty poor return on investment.

GW spent several times more than $1 million... CHS their representation spent in the ballpark of 3-4 times that... And they estimated based on the seniority of GW's attorney's and all the travel involving their witnesses GW spent more than they did. GW's legal team was also larger. This is the most expensive pro-bono case ever for the firm representing CHS.

Yeah GW easily spent more than $1 million, and it'll be hard to get an actual figure due to the way it's been accounted away over a couple of years, but that just goes to make the ROI even worse. What else could they have spent those millions on instead of wasting court time?

Herzlos wrote:

What else could they have spent those millions on instead of wasting court time?

Hookers and Blackjack?


I think that if they actually learn anything from this very expensive process that in the future we'll actually see more specific C&D action rather than them taking companies straight to trial. I think the C&Ds will be much more focused on the specific details of what they find objectional and offer discussion, maybe a little less Hulk voice of: Grah! GW sue NOW!! I was pretty shocked that I'd recieved no contact from GW prior to being thrown into the midst of a suit, a 5 minute phone call could have saved a lot of time and money on their end, but I guess they have hundred dollar bills to spare whenever they need to warm up the fire. ::shrug::

With them dropping the line about having some 200 companies on file that they are considering action against I think we'll defiantely still see them go after companies, but they'll likely put in proper leg work before their next run. (At least if they want actual results). Spending that type of money and time to get a mixed "win" I don't see the any practical application for. Seems that always playing the hard-ass card has cost them quite a tidy sum. A little bit of communiation instead of mashing the "Hulk Smash!" button can go a very long way and it certainly costs a lot less.

Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. Gillian Stevenson is probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

[Speculation here as we don't know what is in the final verdict.]

It appears that spare parts are okay, complete figures aren't, isn't that a loss for other companies specialising in 'not' figures, for example the Celtic Knight range?

[/speculation]

Cheers

Andrew