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Who's Gillian Stevenson?

Well people it is time to help CHS order today, to make the fine go away!

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

I'm not going to argue all the points here, but Kennelly seems to deal largely in IP cases if his current docket is anything to go by, so I'd assume he does know what he's doing more than the average 40k player does in that regard.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Well people it is time to help CHS order today, to make the fine go away!

Yeah, no thanks. I honestly don't have a thing against 3rd party companies like Scribor who make new things that are compatible with 40k models (Tojan Helmeted Heads come to mind), but in CHS' case I always felt they weren't really doing anything original. Hell a fair amount of the time they were making "not X" of something GW has (Iron Hand Shoulder Pads come to mind). So no, I don't like their attitude in how they conduct buisness. If they'd stuck to things like new kinds of shoulder pads (chapters who don't have them for instance) or conversion kits (as much as I see it being kind of useless the Stormraven Conversion kit was one of their better bits) I'd be a lot more for supporting them.

 AndrewC wrote:
[Speculation here as we don't know what is in the final verdict.]

It appears that spare parts are okay, complete figures aren't, isn't that a loss for other companies specialising in 'not' figures, for example the Celtic Knight range?

It would only be a problem where those figures look enough like GW's. And, of course, where the company producing them isn't in Poland, Russia, or China...

And the winners in this case is!

US

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

So there's still a chance for Kennelly to pull his finger out and re look at the actual case before both sides put in there appeals?

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

 Ouze wrote:
Who's Gillian Stevenson?

GWs in house counsel.

http://www.thelawyer.com/games-workshop-wins-legal-manager-from-roythorne/132198.article

czakk wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Who's Gillian Stevenson?

GWs in house counsel.

http://www.thelawyer.com/games-workshop-wins-legal-manager-from-roythorne/132198.article

The thing that caught my eye was that last paragraph in the article talking about the revenue and pre tax income GW reported back in 2008.

czakk wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Who's Gillian Stevenson?

GWs in house counsel.

http://www.thelawyer.com/games-workshop-wins-legal-manager-from-roythorne/132198.article

Well, 5 years was a good run for her. I'd be interested in the timing of the onslaught of C&Ds and her appointment....

http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/gill-stevenson/13/933/526

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

Word of friendly advice. Just be careful. Think clearly on how you proceed with your venture. Get solid legal advice from people who deal in your scope of business.

And above all good luck. Perhaps if the stuff you are wanting to produce is what I'm looking for I'll go and purchase some.

Adam

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

Word of friendly advice. Just be careful. Think clearly on how you proceed with your venture. Get solid legal advice from people who deal in your scope of business.

And above all good luck. Perhaps if the stuff you are wanting to produce is what I'm looking for I'll go and purchase some.

Adam

Sound advice but even that may not save you since CHS received legal advice before they started and wound up in court anyway.

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

I can't comment on the capabilities of the Judge nor presume on Ms Stevenson but clearly you have a different definition of butt kicking in Louisiana than here in Blighty.

Is only the home run of a large cash judgement considered a victory or are there other qualitative objectives that could be desired as well. I think that there are merits to the latter that some might not have considered.

Dr. Grindley touristing in Chicago (just cause I'm trawling around looking for word of the case):

@cjgrindley 10 Jun
aaaahhhhhhhhhhhg!!!!! done.

@cjgrindley 10 Jun
Going dark until after the trial, wish me luck.


@cjgrindley 10 Jun
On my way to court


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

I can't comment on the capabilities of the Judge nor presume on Ms Stevenson but clearly you have a different definition of butt kicking in Louisiana than here in Blighty.

Is only the home run of a large cash judgement considered a victory or are there other qualitative objectives that could be desired as well. I think that there are merits to the latter that some might not have considered.

A 25k judgment is terrible but we really have to wait for the actual judgment before we figure out the qualitative stuff (the quality of GWs copyrights / trademarks in the US) .

 notprop wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

I can't comment on the capabilities of the Judge nor presume on Ms Stevenson but clearly you have a different definition of butt kicking in Louisiana than here in Blighty.

Is only the home run of a large cash judgement considered a victory or are there other qualitative objectives that could be desired as well. I think that there are merits to the latter that some might not have considered.

The money isn't even a factor in deciding victory for this case.

GW sued for 160 counts, and they lost on 65% of them. Look at it like a game: GW 56 points, CHS 104 points. That is a right spanking. CHS lost money on the points they didn't win, but they will most likely appeal those(as GW will appeal the 104 items they lost on).

And the 104 points that CHS won are not trivial matters, the biggest point in there being the shoulder pad which we now have a clear legal stance on what we can do with them which is basically use them as we want provided we don't have GW iconography 1:1 on them.

 agnosto wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

Word of friendly advice. Just be careful. Think clearly on how you proceed with your venture. Get solid legal advice from people who deal in your scope of business.

And above all good luck. Perhaps if the stuff you are wanting to produce is what I'm looking for I'll go and purchase some.

Adam

Sound advice but even that may not save you since CHS received legal advice before they started and wound up in court anyway.

Unfortunately that is the nature of doing business. Sooner or later you are probably going to go to court for one reason or another.

 Aerethan wrote:


GW sued for 160 counts, and they lost on 65% of them. Look at it like a game: GW 56 points, CHS 104 points. That is a right spanking. CHS lost money on the points they didn't win, but they will most likely appeal those(as GW will appeal the 104 items they lost on).

I would say the ability of CHS to appeal will likely hinge on whether they keep pro-bono legal representation. If a firm takes your case pro bono, are they obligated or is it commonly done good form to continue free representation for an appeal?

 insaniak wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
[Speculation here as we don't know what is in the final verdict.]

It appears that spare parts are okay, complete figures aren't, isn't that a loss for other companies specialising in 'not' figures, for example the Celtic Knight range?

It would only be a problem where those figures look enough like GW's. And, of course, where the company producing them isn't in Poland, Russia, or China...

Or look small enough to kick around with no real chance of defending themselves....

The Auld Grump

 warboss wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:


GW sued for 160 counts, and they lost on 65% of them. Look at it like a game: GW 56 points, CHS 104 points. That is a right spanking. CHS lost money on the points they didn't win, but they will most likely appeal those(as GW will appeal the 104 items they lost on).

I would say the ability of CHS to appeal will likely hinge on whether they keep pro-bono legal representation. If a firm takes your case pro bono, are they obligated or is it commonly done good form to continue free representation for an appeal?

Really the margin is bigger when you consider GW dropped 1/3 of its initial claims before it got in front of a jury.

They aren't obligated. CHS had other concerned law firms interested in representing them for both this trial and any appeals. Even if CHS current representation decides they don't want to or can't pursue an appeal, they'll assist whatever firm ends up taking lead on the appeal.


As far as the judge goes, my impression is that 99% of the cases that come before him settle out of court and so he sees anything that makes it this far as a nuisance.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Really the margin is bigger when you consider GW dropped 1/3 of its initial claims before it got in front of a jury.

As far as the judge goes, my impression is that 99% of the cases that come before him settle out of court and so he sees anything that makes it this far as a nuisance.

Precisely. The Judge already dismissed a ton of claims with prejudice. Those claims dropped since then will likely also be dismissed with prejudice. The claims dropped as part of the consent judgment were also consented to being dismissed, by and large, with prejudice. The story of this case is GW claiming the world and sloughing claims all the way up to trial, then losing on 65% of the claims it did manage to keep, with little chance of an appeal (since most issues went GW's way in front of the Judge) and CHS having plenty of room for both post verdict motions and appellate points.

And at the end of the day, this is what GW was concerned about:



And GW lost hard on that. GW also lost on the CHS logo and on "specializing for custom bits and sculpts for Warhammer 40,000 and Fantasy."

GW lost on the basic size and shape of the space marine shoulder pad, which GW thought it had already won with the Judge.

The point is that GW had everything to lose and CHS had nothing to lose. GW told CHS that every single thing it did was wrong, and that CHS needed to go out of business. CHS had no reason to do anything other than fight back. Anything other than a total, 100% win for GW is a loss.

And CHS is going to still be alive and kicking. GW failed to put CHS out of business, GW failed to get what it wanted in terms of use of its alleged trademarks, and GW spent a million+ dollars to do it.

A literal garage business stood up to an 800 pound gorilla and said "No, I don't care what you say, that is not the law and I am not going to roll over just because you say so." That garage business took GW all the way through 2 and a half years of litigation, through to a jury trial, and got a very favorable verdict. That is a massive accomplishment.

Nick Villacci did something that no one else was willing to do, that no one else in this industry had the sand to do, and everyone is going to benefit from the sacrifices that he made in order to make it happen. You can say that CHS is wrong. You can say that Nick deserved what he got. You can say that he lost on some claims.

But the fact is that CHS has helped to show us where the line is. The efforts of Nick Villacci have helped to define what is acceptable under the law, regardless of what GW says or believes. This case has shown that GW cannot dictate terms to the accessory market. No matter what happens to CHS, that is a win.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

And in that event, I do respect the position you are coming from and can understand as such. The poster I was quoted has held an anti-GW stance on every topic covering from legal to performance of WHFB and 3D printing wishing hell and high water that GW will die, without any proper evidence or support to back his arguments up, at which point he just shuts up and doesn't say anything. If you have a right to be mad at GW, such as in your case, then I will respect your point of view as legitimate. What I cannot tolerate are a bunch of smurfs running around headlessly spewing anti-GW hate and turning others into likeminded individuals, because I truly believe that DakkaDakka users are more intelligent and mature than that. Don't ruin the community by blindly drinking the haterate. That is all.

weeble1000 wrote:
A literal garage business stood up to an 800 pound gorilla and said "No, I don't care what you say, that is not the law and I am not going to roll over just because you say so." That garage business took GW all the way through 2 and a half years of litigation, through to a jury trial, and got a very favorable verdict. That is a massive accomplishment.

Nick Villacci did something that no one else was willing to do, that no one else in this industry had the sand to do, and everyone is going to benefit from the sacrifices that he made in order to make it happen. You can say that CHS is wrong. You can say that Nick deserved what he got. You can say that he lost on some claims.

I'm wondering though, would he have been able to do so if CHS hadn't gotten pro bono representation? If GW go after other bits makers would they also be able to stand up to several years of litigation? What are the odds of those other companies getting pro bono representation?

I'm glad CHS won and that the secondary market has had a few things "cleared up" and this will open doors for other bits makers and give them some protection, but that won't stop GW from going after them.

Well the fact he chose to stand in the first place, brought everything else in place, he chose to stand when he didn't have pro bono representation.

This sort of case lays the framework to assist a judge to assist a would be defendant by issuing a declaratory judgement to head off a potential suit after a C&D has been received.

xxvaderxx wrote:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I new this would blow up on gw face sooner or later!!!!!!!

Bring on:
Heat weapon compatible with space marines
Rocket launcher compatible with space marine
Flamethrower compatible with spacemarines
Legion X shoulderpad compatible with spacemarines

Ad fething infinitum

This added to the advent of 3d printing and gw days are numbered

While I agree with the sentiment to bring on the aftermarket parts;
The fact that you seem to think this could or even should lead to GW folding is shortsighted. I can only assume that you found this website by mistake.

I think this is a great big win for the customer base. Creative types now have a legal framework to consider before putting their wares on the market. 3rd party companies can be a little less fearful as they move forward. GW will continue to have to innovate to stay relevant.

 AustonT wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I new this would blow up on gw face sooner or later!!!!!!!

Bring on:
Heat weapon compatible with space marines
Rocket launcher compatible with space marine
Flamethrower compatible with spacemarines
Legion X shoulderpad compatible with spacemarines

Ad fething infinitum

This added to the advent of 3d printing and gw days are numbered

While I agree with the sentiment to bring on the aftermarket parts;
The fact that you seem to think this could or even should lead to GW folding is shortsighted. I can only assume that you found this website by mistake.

You seem to think that love of GW is what brings people to this site...

And that GW, WH and WH40K are all synonymous.

It is quite possible to like the games and sincerely wish that the parent corporation would either wise up or curl up and die.

Me, I'd rather see GW get taken over by sane management.

The Auld Grump

Or better yet, bat gak crazy fan boy management, who would churn out vast quantities of new kits, fulfilling every gamers wildest dreams at below ludicrous prices.

Sure, the company would implode in short order, but by that time we'd all be stocked up on everything we could paint or play with for two lifetimes, replete from an orgy of model purchasing that has never been seen before, or will be again!

I don't think it would matter to gamers if the IP went entirely public and GW died. It's not going to happen but it wouldn't be bad, if anything, there'd be more freedom and choice. The gamers would produce plenty of material and the designs and background have the appeal and interest for several other companies to make stuff so that you'd always be able to get Space Marines and all the rest.

Things like Blood Bowl survive even when GW try to rub it out by C&Ding their fan sites, choking the free updates of their rules and removing all their models from sale. These communities survive in spite of everything. The 40K and Warhammer communities are much larger.

Also with these fan communities there's a much slower release of rules, there are slight alterations but the rules remain fairly constant. Why is that not a good thing? The churn over of GW's rules is entirely artificial. They re-release the rules every few years simply to force people to buy them again to keep up and begin yet another tedious cycle of codexes which in turn are merely an excuse to invent more expensive models that conveniently become 'essential' in the new release. It has absolutely nothing to do with improving quality of the rules.

The only bad thing about GW closing up is the impact on independent retailers, but then again, they are being treated like rubbish anyway. The industry would survive, hell maybe even thrive, with GW gone.

Okay, folks. There's a separate thread to discuss implications of the outcome; let's leave this thread solely for the remaining legal issues.

Likely, that means there isn't much to do in this thread until we get the post-verdict motions and/or more direct information. But after 168 pages, the thread could use a break anyway.