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Backfire wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

Ofc, that's why I said Corporate, you don't want those stooopid mor... excuse me beloved clients learning about 3rd parties but surely you want your shareholders to know that you have a backup plan before they start asking pointed questions like why the company spent 1+ million dollars fighting a suit that has ended up questioning the ownership of many trademarks that IIRC in the last shareholder report the CEO said they were safer that insede Fort Knox vaults.

I think people are reading bit too much into "GW lost those and those trademarks and dropped damage claims from $400k to 25k etc." Just because you lose from your initial position does not mean a catastrophe. A standard negotiating tactics is to set your claims at preposterous level, so then later you can "compromise" towards the level you realistically hoped to achieve. I suspect GW applied much the same principle to its trademark claims. They probably figured that the best way to get as broad trademarks as possible was to trademark absolutely *everything* and hope for the best: I doubt they ever realistically even expected to be able to hold on all of that. This is hardly unique way of trademark policy, many other companies practice same. (For example, Facebook attempting to trademark word "book").

That's possible, however I think it is far more likely GW were aiming to have CH shut down entirely and send a very clear message to all 3rd party bitz sellers. And if that was their intention then it is a catastrophe since instead they gave those people clearly defined guidelines as to what they can and can't do.
Let's face it, this is not a company who have a lot going for them when it comes to wanting the benefit of the doubt.

The Chapterhouse web store has had an update. You can make some educated guesses about what GW won on from what's missing. AFAIKT Tru scale marines, Tyranids wings, some of the chapter specific shoulder pads are missing in addition to things like the torturess that we have already known about.

I've been following this for quite some time. The annoying part is, to me, that £1m could have been invested in the design and production of another line of miniatures to sell. What about making a boat load of shoulder pads that improve the space marine line itself?

Most GW customers wouldn't even know about CH until this lawsuit. So most customers would, if wanting different shoulder pads etc, purchase from GW. Thus, Increasing their profit margin. Yes, 3rd party bit producers will make bits for that model line, but first, consumers would be purchasing those models. Only then to buy said shoulderpads, weapons, heads etc.

If they directly copied something GW were already making. Example being a full space marine line. Or a full kit of tau battle suits... THAT would be cause to chase up... because people would be buying a directly copied product. I just wish GW would stop trying to compete by choking other companies. Why not just make more miniatures at more competetive prices?

If there is no competition... GW can charge whatever they want and those of us who want to continue to collect 40k or WHFB we will be forced to pay whatever GW charges.

Rant over. Bottom line:

I'm glad other companies are out there creating competition.
I wish GW would concentrate more on their own line of models. £1m might not be alot of money to GW. But it is still a lot of money.
If CH does indeed fold now, another company will spring up in it's place somewhere anyway.

But Mike, GW doesn't want to make those products. It doesn't want to sell them. There's too many to make; too many product codes to worry about; too few customers interested in buying them.

This is why these 3rd party companies can even exist in the first place. They meet a demand that, by and large, GW does not meet and has no inclination to meet. Hence, these companies are both good for end customers and good for GW.

It might be better for GW if the company had some influence over what these companies produce, the quality of their products, etc. But for that, all GW has to do is license them, or create a reasonable set of suggested guidelines/standards.

Right now, GW's position is "It is wrong, detrimental to GW, and it MUST STOP NOW!"

All that position does is harm GW, harm fans, harm customers, and harm 3rd party accessory companies.

I understand your point completely.

And so we come to the question;

If GW doesn't want to make the products, what harm does it do to GW at all?

 ascended_mike wrote:
I've been following this for quite some time. The annoying part is, to me, that £1m could have been invested in the design and production of another line of miniatures to sell. What about making a boat load of shoulder pads that improve the space marine line itself?

Right. It's already been mentioned, but GW could have prevented this whole ordeal simply by producing in-demand models and, secondarily, offering them at a reasonable price.

The only reason the niche aftermarket exists in what is already a niche hobby is because of GW's complacency in not producing the stuff that people wanted, and their [incredibly arrogant] assumption that nobody else would, and/or nobody would buy from those that would.

GW can still put the screws to CH just by downloading their entire catalog, and then producing all of those models and bits at same/cheaper prices. That would be a market-centric way to go after a competitor that would probably work.

 sourclams wrote:

GW can still put the screws to CH just by downloading their entire catalog, and then producing all of those models and bits at cheaper prices. That would be a market-centric way to go after a competitor that would probably work.

So they're basically safe then?

FYI an order I placed pre-trial for Farseer and Warlock jetbike kits shipped yesterday

Judedoug.. you placed an order before the verdict and or trial.. Chapterhouse has made an agreement with you (which I presume you have already paid for) to supply certain goods, Chapterhouse would be in breach of contract with you the customer if they failed to supply the agreed goods..

So whilst I understand that these products may not be available anymore I commend Chapterhouse for for filling their contractual obligations to their customers.

mullet_steve wrote:
I commend Chapterhouse for for filling their contractual obligations to their customers.

Good form Chapterhouse.

 ascended_mike wrote:
I understand your point completely.

And so we come to the question;

If GW doesn't want to make the products, what harm does it do to GW at all?

I haven't followed this case at all nor read this thread, so at the risk of being completely wrong, I'd assume it has to do with trademark protection. If GW doesn't go after breachers of their trademarks, they risk losing them, which would indeed be very bad for GW. It's the same reason you see Disney go after daycare centers painting Mickey Mouse on the walls in the playroom or Lego occasionally insisting that you can't talk about building blocks as legos, but rather LEGO blocks - it dilutes their trademark, and they will lose it. Silly outcome, but not really the company's fault.

mullet_steve wrote:

So whilst I understand that these products may not be available anymore I commend Chapterhouse for for filling their contractual obligations to their customers.

They are still available on their website. I was merely expressing that Chapterhouse is back to business as usual.

tgjensen: This is probably the basis for most of the case claims. It is interesting to note that this case is creating a very specific legal precedent for what 3rd party companies can and cannot do.

 sourclams wrote:
Including continued use of GW's 9 registered trademarks, which seems like an especially important nugget.

- That seems like the most important bit of news here. Most of the 3rd party manufacturers get by telling us that they're making "Cosmic Knight parts" or some such. It seems like it shouldn't be illegal to say "Hey, our bits will fit onto your Space Marine minis."

Now, it is definitively legal to do so.


-On another subject: 25k sounds like the sort of amount that a larger company would absorb without any consideration (it is way less than most legal fees would have been in any case).

Is Chapterhouse large enough that they can simply absorb this amount? I honestly don't know. I know they've been growing for quite some time, and I wonder if this case, and all of the publicity that goes with it has expanded their business such that they can. I suppose that they must, since they're talking like they aren't going under.

Also, do we know if there will be appeals?

 judgedoug wrote:

mullet_steve wrote:

So whilst I understand that these products may not be available anymore I commend Chapterhouse for for filling their contractual obligations to their customers.

They are still available on their website. I was merely expressing that Chapterhouse is back to business as usual.

Sorry.. just checked, the Doomseer and Tormentor are gone.. empty pages.

EDIT.. Sorry, just saw you ordered FARseer and warlock jetbikes.. not the complete figs..

After a quick check, I see all relevant nice kits still available, like Eldar and SM jetbikes, Ymgarl heads, Stormraven conversion kit, Rhino and Drop Pod conversion kits. Personally wasn't a fan of the Eldar and Dark Eldar miniature. Tervigon conversion kit is gone, but its peak time has gone with the GW release anyway.

The CHS narrative has been that it really has no negative impact on GW's business... In keeping with that view even though GW lost the majority of the law suit CHS' position isn't likely to spontaneously start to effect GW. Add to that GW never had much hope of recouping anywhere near the cost of this suit. To that end no one should expect an impact on GW's stock prices.

To all those stating that GW would have better spent the money elsewhere, I don't think they were expecting a garage-show business to get a big pro-bono law firm to defend them for two years. I think they were expecting them to just step down and comply like so many have for the past decade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fun fact. I don't recall these being there before, but CHS' website now also directly uses terms that refer to GW products now, such as Blood Ravens, Games Workshop Space Marine Razorback/Storm Raven turret, Terminator Shoulder Pads, etc.

 Enigwolf wrote:
To all those stating that GW would have better spent the money elsewhere, I don't think they were expecting a garage-show business to get a big pro-bono law firm to defend them for two years. I think they were expecting them to just step down and comply like so many have for the past decade.

CHS got that pro-bono representation very early on, though. GW could have opted to try and settle out of court once it was apparent that the one-sided beatdown was about to turn into a much more even thing, but they decided to continue with their scorched earth strategy.

 Enigwolf wrote:
To all those stating that GW would have better spent the money elsewhere, I don't think they were expecting a garage-show business to get a big pro-bono law firm to defend them for two years. I think they were expecting them to just step down and comply like so many have for the past decade.

Doesn't change the fact they could of got basically the same out come if they would of settled out of court. Without the millions spent and keep it private so other 3rd party business would have legal precedent, when GW go after them.

Yes, the disadvantage of the settlement in court is that it creates precedents.

Once, however, the pro bono firm that came in for CHS, saw the weakness of the GW's case, they would have wanted to bring it to a conclusion in course. GW were trapped.

The jury also confirmed that Chapterhouse could continue to use most of Games Workshop’s asserted trademarks when selling compatible parts, including all nine of Games Workshop’s registered trademarks. Together with the summary judgment wins, the jury’s verdict confirmed Chapterhouse can continue to make and sell 111 products that Games Workshop hoped to block using copyright laws, and can continue to use 104 words and phrases that Games Workshop said were trademarked.

Wow. Dying to find out what the 9 trademarks, and 104 words and phrases were. I assume that will be disclosed with the final verdict?

Trademarks of Games Workshop

All of the following are Registered Trademarks of Games Workshop Ltd:

Armageddon, Blood Bowl, Chivalry, Citadel, the Citadel logo, Dark Angels, Dark Future, Deathwing, Dungeonquest, 'Eavy Metal, Eldar, Eldar Attack, Epic, the Games Workshop logo, Games Workshop, the GW logo, The GW Flame logo, Genestealer, Slottabase, Space·Fleet, Space Hulk, Space Marine, Talisman, Tyranid, Warhammer and Warmaster. Marauder is a registered trademark of Marauder Miniatures Ltd (Used with permission by Games Workshop)

http://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/GWtm.html

May be out of date, but one should be able to guess from this list which 9 CHS were using and continue to use.

Does anyone here have access to the full article in the link below?

http://www.law360.com/ip/articles/450889/jury-mostly-backs-custom-warhammer-parts-in-ip-suit

Can we get a fund raiser to pay the 25k?

niceguyteddy wrote:
Can we get a fund raiser to pay the 25k?

A fund raiser would not be needed. Since he owns a business, you could always just buy a few products.

Also note, he hasn't requested anyone to help him with his problems. I personally would be loathe to go around begging for a handout to pay off a debt.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

niceguyteddy wrote:
Can we get a fund raiser to pay the 25k?

A fund raiser would not be needed. Since he owns a business, you could always just buy a few products.

Also note, he hasn't requested anyone to help him with his problems. I personally would be loathe to go around begging for a handout to pay off a debt.

Wasn't there initially a thing where he was collecting donations to help with legal funds before he got the pro bono representation?

niceguyteddy wrote:
Can we get a fund raiser to pay the 25k?

Why? Just buy stuff from them if you want to show your support. They're a business after all, not the Red Cross.

 Breotan wrote:

niceguyteddy wrote:
Can we get a fund raiser to pay the 25k?

Why? Just buy stuff from them if you want to show your support. They're a business after all, not the Red Cross.

Already did, but the minis community making an effort to officially pay off CHS fine would be sending a very strong message to GW what their fan base is wiling to support, and what it is not.

 AduroT wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

niceguyteddy wrote:
Can we get a fund raiser to pay the 25k?

A fund raiser would not be needed. Since he owns a business, you could always just buy a few products.

Also note, he hasn't requested anyone to help him with his problems. I personally would be loathe to go around begging for a handout to pay off a debt.

Wasn't there initially a thing where he was collecting donations to help with legal funds before he got the pro bono representation?

I believe there was, but raising funds for a multiyear lawsuit and a $25000 fine are two different things. Granted, he may not have known how much the lawsuit could cost him, but with a specific dollar amount you can plan for it. Also, I'm fairly sure he doesn't have to hand them 25k in one lump sum all at once.

Hey Ya'll

First I want to say thank you for keeping up with the last 30 months. Ive personally read all your post and while I didnt say anything I did appreciate the well wishers.

Of note I want to say I did everything I could to reach a settlement with GW that was fair. I knew what the outcome regarding trademarks was going to be (its case law) but they did not see things that way and refused to move from their interpretation of the law.

Secondly, regarding the 25K. It is not an insignificant amount. 2 years ago the company would have been in better shape to handle that cost, but the last 30 months has drained CHS financially and pretty much distracted us from growth. To remedy this I will be releasing a number of products and attempting my first foray into a kickstarter. This will be the defense line terrain pieces and I hope this will help recoup the cost of the last 2.5 years as well as get us back into the competition to release exciting products.

I was fortunate to have such great attorneys and friends (those two are not mutually exclusive now) and without them the market place would still be stifled (not to mention I wouldn't have a company anymore). I can not say how amazing it was that I took part in a huge federal lawsuit, and experience unto itself, but when I was in the courtroom across from GWs 2 attorneys and 1 inhouse councel (Gill Stevenson) I had a team of at least 6 attorneys and 4 support staff around me the whole time. I made great friends and learned so much.

Saying that... well just thank you for all your support.

Nick Villacci
Chapterhouse Studios LLC