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If the motions for Rule 50/59 aren't due until July 15, and we can expect the court to allow time to respond to the dueling motions, plus time for the court to rule....

I'd guess late August for the final outcome at the trial level, assuming the judge doesn't decide to hold a new trial on any aspects brought up in the motions.

 jonolikespie wrote:


I know a few guys (including myself) who'd throw a few bucks at a CH kickstarter just to stick it to GW

If Chapterhouse can tap into only a portion of the rage that many people have towards GW I reckon they will be able to retire off the back of a kickstarter.... you read it here first!

And everyone will be aware its going off.. remember what Max Clifford said?

Theres no such thing as bad publicity....

 azreal13 wrote:
Would it be reasonable to think that GW would be going after an injunction to prevent the exact nature of what marks had been won and lost from going public? Thus preventing other 3rd party manufacturers knowing for certain where the line has been drawn?

Demanding an injunction to prevent the world to know what exactly is legal, sounds like something GW could do

 Kroothawk wrote:
Demanding an injunction to prevent the world to know what exactly is legal, sounds like something GW could spend a million bucks at

HOW MUCH MUST I SPEND TO CUT THESE DEFICITS!!!

 mattyrm wrote:
If Chapterhouse can tap into only a portion of the rage that many people have towards GW I reckon they will be able to retire off the back of a kickstarter.... you read it here first!

Never going to happen. Most of the GW rage comes from people described by William Shatner's song "Has Been". These are not the type of people who actually put up when the time comes to do so.

I don't have "rage" towards GW, but I've directed lots of funds to other companies. I'll consider chipping in towards CHS when the time comes, if the products are good... that last part is the most important, of course.

I was only okay with the quality of the parts I received from them before, but that said it was fantastic just to have a place offering those parts, which weren't available elsewhere at the time (pre-heresy style jump packs). But, it looks to me like they've gotten better over time with their sculpts... not sure if that's true of the casting, too, or not.

I'd definitely throw down on a CHS Kickstarter, even if it was a small pledge level.

But either way isn't a CHS KS way off topic?

 judgedoug wrote:
I'd definitely throw down on a CHS Kickstarter, even if it was a small pledge level.

But either way isn't a CHS KS way off topic?

Yes, it is. The proper discussion thread is here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/534629.page

 Breotan wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
If Chapterhouse can tap into only a portion of the rage that many people have towards GW I reckon they will be able to retire off the back of a kickstarter.... you read it here first!

Never going to happen. Most of the GW rage comes from people described by William Shatner's song "Has Been". These are not the type of people who actually put up when the time comes to do so.

Correction: Most of the GW rage comes from folks that enjoyed GW games, then gave up because GW has been getting greedier and greedier and stupider and stupider.

Not 'never done d*ck' to quote your song, but 'done been d*cked over'.

Most of the folks that I know who are angriest with GW have GW armies, and used to play GW games - most still play GW games, but the games are no longer supported by GW. (Necromunda, Mordheim (my game!), and Blood Bowl (can't stand it, but others like it).)

GW is why our Kings of War games are doing well. Folks do not like the current version of Warhammer, but still want to play their armies.

And I just bought two of the Chapterhouse 'Space Praetorian' jetbikes and DA shoulder pads - one will be used as a Ravenwing Chaplain, the other... don't know yet.

The Auld Grump

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

niceguyteddy wrote:
Can we get a fund raiser to pay the 25k?

Why? Just buy stuff from them if you want to show your support. They're a business after all, not the Red Cross.

Already did, but the minis community making an effort to officially pay off CHS fine would be sending a very strong message to GW what their fan base is wiling to support, and what it is not.

Exactly this. The point would be to endorse the verdict, more than to help CHS. I don't know if something like that could be organized, or is even practical, but even if not, there are plenty of ways to let GW know that you support and agree with the jury verdict.

weeble1000 wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

niceguyteddy wrote:
Can we get a fund raiser to pay the 25k?

Why? Just buy stuff from them if you want to show your support. They're a business after all, not the Red Cross.

Already did, but the minis community making an effort to officially pay off CHS fine would be sending a very strong message to GW what their fan base is wiling to support, and what it is not.

Exactly this. The point would be to endorse the verdict, more than to help CHS. I don't know if something like that could be organized, or is even practical, but even if not, there are plenty of ways to let GW know that you support and agree with the jury verdict.

A letter writing campaign directed at Tom Kirby and the Board of Directors (and I mean actual, physical letters sent by post and on actual paper) would have more of an impact than spending money on CHS to get the point across. GW will only see that as salt in the wound and lost revenue, not an actual point being made.

Why letters? Because if you get enough people on it they will have to deal with the actual physical bulk of them. Emails can be deleted, phone calls ignored but physical messages are about as good as you can get without standing in their office until they'll actually deal with you.

Intent on how you spent your money is frankly almost impossible to gauge from an outside perspective. GW can't read your mind, nor can they know that you pitched in to CHS with the intent of showing support. For all they know you pitched in because CHS has something they don't, or something they do at a lower cost. If you want GW to get the message you'll basically need to force feed it to them.

TOPIC, folks.

How to "stick it to GW," or not, isn't on-topic here.

Alright, back on topic:

We've heard CHS is looking at appeals, but all we got on GW right now is talk of an injunction. Anyone hear anything else that they're doing yet?

Do we know what said injunction would be for?

I doubt CHS has any intention of selling items it lost on in the future, but a court order to do so wouldn't hurt I guess. I honestly think CHS has moved on and the loss of all 2 figures won't cripple their sales.

Is there any evidence of GW saddling up for appeals? Seems like they have to, given how badly they got spanked.

 Aerethan wrote:
Do we know what said injunction would be for?

I doubt CHS has any intention of selling items it lost on in the future, but a court order to do so wouldn't hurt I guess. I honestly think CHS has moved on and the loss of all 2 figures won't cripple their sales.

Is there any evidence of GW saddling up for appeals? Seems like they have to, given how badly they got spanked.

The request will probably be for a permanent injunction of sale and manufacture of items found to have been infringing.

Mohoc wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Do we know what said injunction would be for?

I doubt CHS has any intention of selling items it lost on in the future, but a court order to do so wouldn't hurt I guess. I honestly think CHS has moved on and the loss of all 2 figures won't cripple their sales.

Is there any evidence of GW saddling up for appeals? Seems like they have to, given how badly they got spanked.

The request will probably be for a permanent injunction of sale and manufacture of items found to have been infringing.

Doesn't seem like a huge loss, and also seems like something that should be included in the final verdict.

 Aerethan wrote:
Do we know what said injunction would be for?

I doubt CHS has any intention of selling items it lost on in the future, but a court order to do so wouldn't hurt I guess. I honestly think CHS has moved on and the loss of all 2 figures won't cripple their sales.

Its two figures plus a number of add on kits (have not done a complete list though), going by stuff that has been taken off the web site, although, as you say, it should not cripple their sales.

T

So far it seems the Tru-Scale line, the Doomseer, the Torturess, and the Scorpion Warrior chick are gone. Those are what jumped out at me.

Weird that the 'Tru-Scales' had to go.

That makes me sad...

It should worry a lot of people thought. If the court felt that addional parts were okay, but full figures weren't then that affects all garage companies.

Now I know some people will say that this will not affect those companies working out of, eg Poland, but it does. If those companies want to do business in USA, they have to abide by USA laws, and that means.....?

Cheers

Andrew

Surely only the name could infringe from the figures. The actual sculpts don't look much like any elf GW does, the tru-scale is a bit closer to the mark but it's just a suit of armour.

If they change the names, there's nothing that makes them look like GW figures more than many other fantasy figures. That doesn't make sense they should be removed unless you're saying that while you can make add-ons GW have some exclusivity on futuristic fantasy figures.

Given CHS are apparently considering an appeal, it may be a case of "We'll take 'em down for now, but if we win the appeal they can go back up".

Ah that's a shame about the tru-scale.. after that other chap got closed down I think CHS were the only ones on the market?

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Surely only the name could infringe from the figures. The actual sculpts don't look much like any elf GW does, the tru-scale is a bit closer to the mark but it's just a suit of armour.

If they change the names, there's nothing that makes them look like GW figures more than many other fantasy figures. That doesn't make sense they should be removed unless you're saying that while you can make add-ons GW have some exclusivity on futuristic fantasy figures.

What it boils down to are basically points of aesthetic similarity. The Knight-Praetorian or w/e it was called may be "a suit of armour", but it was stylistically nearly identical to SM armor outside of a few differences. Ditto for the Doomseer and Torturess; both were clearly derivative from earlier GW works. Thunderhammers appear to be gone from the site as well, etc.

To be honest, it's part of the reason I was kinda shocked that they didn't have to resculpt the riders on the jetbikes. The jetbikes I rather expected them to get away with, given that they model they based that one on has been out of circulation for twenty years, but the rider is again, functionally a Space Marine with a slightly different helmet.

On a similar note, I'm actually kinda shocked that they had to drop the Tyranid Warrior wings kit, given that that was just... wings. And a couple limbs, but still. I mean, the wings were ugly, and pricy, but they were just... wings.

GW for all its many manty faults have been reasonable with the costumer base over conversions. The main casualty will be that policy. There is a precedent:

Privateer Press does not allow models to be replaced at all, and no one complains. GW will allow you to convert an orc arrer boy into an orc shaman with some bitz, but PP will not allow you to convert a warjack into a special character of the same model warjack, you must have the correct bitz from the exact model for the model to be tourney legal, and it cant be used as a generic jack either, just the special character. If GW did this people would whine, but now they might have to.

In this GW is far more reasonable than PP, however with third party bitz everywhere GW will not be misbehaving if it turned around and said that models must be 100% GW and acceptable conversions for tourney play may well end up more restricted.

Also GW might continue the policy of being very specific with allowed wargear. So for example you might get to use the wargear for your character that is available in its boxset and nothing else. So for example the combi weapons for SM commanders might be restricted to the one actually on the sprue. This way they can channel miniatures along the lines of what is currently sold more closely.

GW will have to act to close the door on third party sales via the army books and tourney conversions policies, and we will all be poorer for it.

How do conversions factor in it? They are only an issue to some companies in official tournaments. GW and PP have no way to enforce any ban on them outside their stores/tournaments.

And since GW does almost no tournaments anymore..

how can GW enforce the 100% GW mini rule in a tournament thats run by a club or indies store?
The only ones they can force that rule on, is the ones held at Warhammer world (i.e Throne of Skulls).
my local club run there own tourny Twice a year, they are happy with players useing conversions useing any bits out there, GW or otherwise.

That might be the rule for PP conversions, but its not really strictly enforced at all.

 Raesvelg wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Surely only the name could infringe from the figures. The actual sculpts don't look much like any elf GW does, the tru-scale is a bit closer to the mark but it's just a suit of armour.

If they change the names, there's nothing that makes them look like GW figures more than many other fantasy figures. That doesn't make sense they should be removed unless you're saying that while you can make add-ons GW have some exclusivity on futuristic fantasy figures.

What it boils down to are basically points of aesthetic similarity. The Knight-Praetorian or w/e it was called may be "a suit of armour", but it was stylistically nearly identical to SM armor outside of a few differences. Ditto for the Doomseer and Torturess; both were clearly derivative from earlier GW works. Thunderhammers appear to be gone from the site as well, etc.

To be honest, it's part of the reason I was kinda shocked that they didn't have to resculpt the riders on the jetbikes. The jetbikes I rather expected them to get away with, given that they model they based that one on has been out of circulation for twenty years, but the rider is again, functionally a Space Marine with a slightly different helmet.

On a similar note, I'm actually kinda shocked that they had to drop the Tyranid Warrior wings kit, given that that was just... wings. And a couple limbs, but still. I mean, the wings were ugly, and pricy, but they were just... wings.

It's a very mixed bag. The Torturess just looks generic to me, and doesn't look much like any particular figure. The jet bike seems safe, it bares no resemblance to the RT jet bike. The tyranid wings being removed is silly, what does GW own about them? I can see that there's a similarity issue with the tru-scale but it dies seem like the jury decided that they had to give a few wins and losses to each side, it doesn't seem logical.

That's the way it looks to me, too.

As if the jury thought that a company as big as GW throwing as many accusations as they did, some of them must be right.

In my eyes, the Doomseer was a female humanoid in plate armour with robes and a tall helmet with horns on it. Every individual piece of it was different to all of the GW figures and so was the ensemble. It looked like a Farseer because all Farseer models are humanoids with plate armour, robes and a tall helmet with some kind of decorations on it.

GW now apparently own the copyright on the idea of a general style of model.

What would happen if Chapter House should make a Doomseer the same as the old one, but without a helmet?