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Sorry that wasn't very clear on my part - I was referring to some players of the Forces of Order of the EoT campaign saying that they won, not that Games Workshop can be described by any reasonably measure as winning this legal case!

Bad use of an asterisk on my part, at least your post made interesting reading regardless...

Tiny update, just correcting a date:


400:

MINUTE entry before Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Minute order of 6/20/2013 is amended to reflect the correct due date for joint status report regarding injunctive relief as 7/11/2013. Balance of minute order to stand. (or, ) (Entered: 06/25/2013)

Redacted; no more OT posts in this thread. --Janthkin

I have been following the thread but need someone with a more legal mindset. I know that CHS won 100+ copyright and trademark claims. Does this mean that GW actually LOST those, or is it that CHS was not in violation of GW copyright / trademark. There is a big difference there in my opinion.
The first is CHS could be allowed to make because they are different enough.
The other is GW does not have that CR/TM.. Then it opens it up to anyone making knockoffs of that part.

 Morpheus wrote:
I have been following the thread but need someone with a more legal mindset. I know that CHS won 100+ copyright and trademark claims. Does this mean that GW actually LOST those, or is it that CHS was not in violation of GW copyright / trademark. There is a big difference there in my opinion.
The first is CHS could be allowed to make because they are different enough.
The other is GW does not have that CR/TM.. Then it opens it up to anyone making knockoffs of that part.

Not in violation of, IIRC. GW never had a bunch of those so-called "trademarked" items.

We can only speculate about the details, as jury and judge will meet again to discuss those details.

But I think, GW has "lost" the trademark on grenade launchers

 Kroothawk wrote:
But I think, GW has "lost" the trademark on grenade launchers

...I always found that one silly...

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
But I think, GW has "lost" the trademark on grenade launchers

...I always found that one silly...

well, at least the result of this is that I now own the copy right for "High Pressure Long Range Expolisve Canister Dispenser"..... any word on when we can expect to hear from the judge et al on this? I'm surprised at how long it's taking to actually wind down.

 Morpheus wrote:
I have been following the thread but need someone with a more legal mindset. I know that CHS won 100+ copyright and trademark claims. Does this mean that GW actually LOST those, or is it that CHS was not in violation of GW copyright / trademark. There is a big difference there in my opinion.
The first is CHS could be allowed to make because they are different enough.
The other is GW does not have that CR/TM.. Then it opens it up to anyone making knockoffs of that part.

GW was found not to own some Trademarks it claimed, such as "Jetbike". Some others, CHS was found not to be in violation of (fair use). The full list of which trade marks went which way has not been released yet, so anything outside of the few bits that have been reported widely already is speculation.

 Maddermax wrote:

 Morpheus wrote:
I have been following the thread but need someone with a more legal mindset. I know that CHS won 100+ copyright and trademark claims. Does this mean that GW actually LOST those, or is it that CHS was not in violation of GW copyright / trademark. There is a big difference there in my opinion.
The first is CHS could be allowed to make because they are different enough.
The other is GW does not have that CR/TM.. Then it opens it up to anyone making knockoffs of that part.

GW was found not to own some Trademarks it claimed, such as "Jetbike". Some others, CHS was found not to be in violation of (fair use). The full list of which trade marks went which way has not been released yet, so anything outside of the few bits that have been reported widely already is speculation.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH. So GW could rear up and sue the little guy every single time. There may be a precedent, but it doesn't mean that GW won't hunt down the next guy because of alleged misuse of the trademark.... I seeeeeeeee.... Interesting.

 poda_t wrote:

 Maddermax wrote:

 Morpheus wrote:
I have been following the thread but need someone with a more legal mindset. I know that CHS won 100+ copyright and trademark claims. Does this mean that GW actually LOST those, or is it that CHS was not in violation of GW copyright / trademark. There is a big difference there in my opinion.
The first is CHS could be allowed to make because they are different enough.
The other is GW does not have that CR/TM.. Then it opens it up to anyone making knockoffs of that part.

GW was found not to own some Trademarks it claimed, such as "Jetbike". Some others, CHS was found not to be in violation of (fair use). The full list of which trade marks went which way has not been released yet, so anything outside of the few bits that have been reported widely already is speculation.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH. So GW could rear up and sue the little guy every single time. There may be a precedent, but it doesn't mean that GW won't hunt down the next guy because of alleged misuse of the trademark.... I seeeeeeeee.... Interesting.

Not quite sure I follow you here. GW could sue every time, but if it's something that's been ruled as not a trademark or used in a way that has been ruled fair use in this trial, it would be thrown out by a judge pretty quickly, I would think. They could well sue for other claimed copyrights/trademarks not covered by this ruling, of course.

If GW continues to sue the little guy couldn't the judge fine them for harassment (assuming the precedent was brought up)?

rigeld2 wrote:
If GW continues to sue the little guy couldn't the judge fine them for harassment (assuming the precedent was brought up)?

It's called SLAPP.

 Enigwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If GW continues to sue the little guy couldn't the judge fine them for harassment (assuming the precedent was brought up)?

It's called SLAPP.

There is no federal SLAPP Statue.

 Enigwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If GW continues to sue the little guy couldn't the judge fine them for harassment (assuming the precedent was brought up)?

It's called SLAPP.

Depending on jurisdiction.

New York or California... oh, yeah - GW would be in trouble.

Arizona or New Hampshire... not so much.

The Auld Grump *EDIT* Which is why, in another, unconnected case, Battlefoam went shopping for a venue in their suit against Outrider Hobbies....

I'd like to point out that any precedents set by this case will be limited to US soil. Other countries approach IP law differently and GW may more successfully smack other companies down in those countries.

Yes, other countries can reference this case, but it doesn't mean that they will. Most countries basically do their own thing in that respect.

ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd like to point out that any precedents set by this case will be limited to US soil. Other countries approach IP law differently and GW may more successfully smack other companies down in those countries.

Yes, other countries can reference this case, but it doesn't mean that they will. Most countries basically do their own thing in that respect.

If countries were to look at a GW copyright case, they'd not only have this case to look at, where the US decided that many items were either not infringed or that GW had no copyright on them, and then add to that UK design right law which ALL GW models fall under as toys and have mostly expired.

The US was the strongest front GW could have fought on, and they lost severely on important issues on that front.

 Aerethan wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd like to point out that any precedents set by this case will be limited to US soil. Other countries approach IP law differently and GW may more successfully smack other companies down in those countries.

Yes, other countries can reference this case, but it doesn't mean that they will. Most countries basically do their own thing in that respect.

If countries were to look at a GW copyright case, they'd not only have this case to look at, where the US decided that many items were either not infringed or that GW had no copyright on them, and then add to that UK design right law which ALL GW models fall under as toys and have mostly expired.

The US was the strongest front GW could have fought on, and they lost severely on important issues on that front.

Again, US trademark/IP law doesn't extend to all countries and how those countries choose to handle it may be different. Calling this the decisive case for all future GW IP cases is a bit premature and requires us to make some rather large assumptions on where GW will handle this next and how those courts will rule instead. IP law is a lot of murky waters with it being regulated by trade agreements between countries, if at all.

I couldn't get the UK design database to cooperate to actually look into GW's designs and see if anything was being properly listed but frankly that's only a protected right in the UK as we've seen. The US has basically said the design of something isn't really protectable from what I've seen. I could be wrong on that point though.

Either way, we'll really know for sure if GW ends up in court again. I have a feeling that if they do though their next target won't be in the US.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd like to point out that any precedents set by this case will be limited to US soil. Other countries approach IP law differently and GW may more successfully smack other companies down in those countries.

Yes, other countries can reference this case, but it doesn't mean that they will. Most countries basically do their own thing in that respect.

If countries were to look at a GW copyright case, they'd not only have this case to look at, where the US decided that many items were either not infringed or that GW had no copyright on them, and then add to that UK design right law which ALL GW models fall under as toys and have mostly expired.

The US was the strongest front GW could have fought on, and they lost severely on important issues on that front.

Again, US trademark/IP law doesn't extend to all countries and how those countries choose to handle it may be different. Calling this the decisive case for all future GW IP cases is a bit premature and requires us to make some rather large assumptions on where GW will handle this next and how those courts will rule instead. IP law is a lot of murky waters with it being regulated by trade agreements between countries, if at all.

I couldn't get the UK design database to cooperate to actually look into GW's designs and see if anything was being properly listed but frankly that's only a protected right in the UK as we've seen. The US has basically said the design of something isn't really protectable from what I've seen. I could be wrong on that point though.

Either way, we'll really know for sure if GW ends up in court again. I have a feeling that if they do though their next target won't be in the US.

There will not be a next target just the usual stream of bullying c&d's, there not going to pick a fight in the uk as they would pretty much lose all of there 40k canon and most especially space marines just imagine being able to buy packs of 10 resin beakies for less then half the price of a tac squad for example. There never going to risk that happen8ng given that they survive on marine sales. I doubt they would pick a fight in europe anrisk setting an eu wide precedent if they "won" like they did in the us. Basicly there going to go back to bullying and hollow threats oh and they might start correctly registering stuff as well.

There will not be a next target just the usual stream of bullying c&d's...just imagine being able to buy packs of 10 resin beakies for less then half the price of a tac squad for example. go back to bullying and hollow threats oh and they might start correctly registering stuff as well.

Sad, I can understand a lot of the hatred for GW, but that people see being ablet to buy cheap knockoffs of someone's IP, just so they can save a few quid, as some kind of golden vision... it's hardly utopia.

My point was that the US has the strongest laws concerning IP and copyright, and GW lost here. Many other countries care far less about it than the US, or as with the UK they have laws designed specifically for this i.e. Design Right laws which are not nearly as favorable to GW as US copyright law would be.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Sad, I can understand a lot of the hatred for GW, but that people see being ablet to buy cheap knockoffs of someone's IP, just so they can save a few quid, as some kind of golden vision... it's hardly utopia.

It's actually pretty much exactly how a marketplace is intended to work. Chapterhouse is not simply recasting GW sprues and selling them as GW sprues for 25% of GW prices on eBay. They are making bits that GW itself largely does not/will not produce for which they have found customer demand for.

You cannot decide that something looks like something that you might produce someday (that you have no legal ownership of) and somehow lay claim to that, forever. Especially in a tropes-laden environment like the GW design space.

If GW doesn't like it, then they can produce those models and bits themselves in easily accessible/individually purchaseable ways like what CHS offers. That would actually be the big boy approach to the apparent dispute between GW and all 3rd party producers.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

There will not be a next target just the usual stream of bullying c&d's...just imagine being able to buy packs of 10 resin beakies for less then half the price of a tac squad for example. go back to bullying and hollow threats oh and they might start correctly registering stuff as well.

Sad, I can understand a lot of the hatred for GW, but that people see being ablet to buy cheap knockoffs of someone's IP, just so they can save a few quid, as some kind of golden vision... it's hardly utopia.

*Shrug*

If GW weren't acting like bullies and trying to scam as much money from their fans as the can... then maybe there would be more sympathy for them.

If GW has sole control of what they claim as their IP... hardly Utopia.

But the fact is that much of what they claim as their IP is not, in fact, their IP.... Add that to a lack of a sympathetic moral character.... They are become overreaching unsympathetic, grasping, bullies.

For me, at the least, it is not just about saving 'a few quid' - it is about seeing behavior that I feel damages the industry as a whole being disciplined.

The hole is of GW's own making. They can still dig themselves out of it, and are actually in a better place to save fans 'a few quid' than most of their competition. They own their own plastics manufactory, they are making their models for less than nearly any other company, but yet are charging more.

The Auld Grump

 sourclams wrote:

Chapterhouse is not simply recasting GW sprues and selling them as GW sprues for 25% of GW prices on eBay. They are making bits that GW itself largely does not/will not produce for which they have found customer demand for..

Perfectly reasonable point. But my post referred to those who want beakie knockoffs for a tenner.

What about "non-beakie knockoffs"? There are starting to be some figures on the market that will do quite nicely as actual Space Marines in replacement of the official kits. Especially when you look at the value for money.

GW have a simple defence, which is to ban non-GW models from official competitions.

What they can't do is to stop anyone from producing rival models.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

There will not be a next target just the usual stream of bullying c&d's...just imagine being able to buy packs of 10 resin beakies for less then half the price of a tac squad for example. go back to bullying and hollow threats oh and they might start correctly registering stuff as well.

Sad, I can understand a lot of the hatred for GW, but that people see being ablet to buy cheap knockoffs of someone's IP, just so they can save a few quid, as some kind of golden vision... it's hardly utopia.

*Shrug*

If GW weren't acting like bullies and trying to scam as much money from their fans as the can... then maybe there would be more sympathy for them.

If GW has sole control of what they claim as their IP... hardly Utopia.

But the fact is that much of what they claim as their IP is not, in fact, their IP.... Add that to a lack of a sympathetic moral character.... They are become overreaching unsympathetic, grasping, bullies.

For me, at the least, it is not just about saving 'a few quid' - it is about seeing behavior that I feel damages the industry as a whole being disciplined.

The hole is of GW's own making. They can still dig themselves out of it, and are actually in a better place to save fans 'a few quid' than most of their competition. They own their own plastics manufactory, they are making their models for less than nearly any other company, but yet are charging more.

The Auld Grump

This. Hell, GW has the size, capabilities, and free cash on hand to be able to operate below profits to drive all their competition out of business cutthroat style if they wanted to.

 Enigwolf wrote:

This. Hell, GW has the size, capabilities, and free cash on hand to be able to operate below profits to drive all their competition out of business cutthroat style if they wanted to.

I disagree. Having read GW's financials they have a signifigant amount of capital sunk into their company as is and in the end barely come out ahead. Maybe 6th edition has changed that but they aren't making so much money that they have room to just cut costs without increasing the number of sales to compensate. And even assuming GW could increase the number of sales they lack the ability at this time to ramp up their production to meet an increased demand, especially after closing the Memphis casting line, something that could have been handling things like casting vehicles and/or older models that don't need the new machines.

GW right now doesn't have the capital, the production ability or the number of employees on hand to try and undersell anyone at this time. Maybe if they start working towards it now they could do it in 5-10 years, but not right now.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

This. Hell, GW has the size, capabilities, and free cash on hand to be able to operate below profits to drive all their competition out of business cutthroat style if they wanted to.

I disagree. Having read GW's financials they have a signifigant amount of capital sunk into their company as is and in the end barely come out ahead. Maybe 6th edition has changed that but they aren't making so much money that they have room to just cut costs without increasing the number of sales to compensate. And even assuming GW could increase the number of sales they lack the ability at this time to ramp up their production to meet an increased demand, especially after closing the Memphis casting line, something that could have been handling things like casting vehicles and/or older models that don't need the new machines.

GW right now doesn't have the capital, the production ability or the number of employees on hand to try and undersell anyone at this time. Maybe if they start working towards it now they could do it in 5-10 years, but not right now.

I didn't say that they would be in the green, nor would it be sustainable for long, but that they would probably be able to do it better than their competitors.

 Enigwolf wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

This. Hell, GW has the size, capabilities, and free cash on hand to be able to operate below profits to drive all their competition out of business cutthroat style if they wanted to.

I disagree. Having read GW's financials they have a signifigant amount of capital sunk into their company as is and in the end barely come out ahead. Maybe 6th edition has changed that but they aren't making so much money that they have room to just cut costs without increasing the number of sales to compensate. And even assuming GW could increase the number of sales they lack the ability at this time to ramp up their production to meet an increased demand, especially after closing the Memphis casting line, something that could have been handling things like casting vehicles and/or older models that don't need the new machines.

GW right now doesn't have the capital, the production ability or the number of employees on hand to try and undersell anyone at this time. Maybe if they start working towards it now they could do it in 5-10 years, but not right now.

I didn't say that they would be in the green, nor would it be sustainable for long, but that they would probably be able to do it better than their competitors.

The point I was trying to make was that it would essentially be suicide for the company and they have no good reason to kill themselves.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

This. Hell, GW has the size, capabilities, and free cash on hand to be able to operate below profits to drive all their competition out of business cutthroat style if they wanted to.

I disagree. Having read GW's financials they have a signifigant amount of capital sunk into their company as is and in the end barely come out ahead. Maybe 6th edition has changed that but they aren't making so much money that they have room to just cut costs without increasing the number of sales to compensate. And even assuming GW could increase the number of sales they lack the ability at this time to ramp up their production to meet an increased demand, especially after closing the Memphis casting line, something that could have been handling things like casting vehicles and/or older models that don't need the new machines.

GW right now doesn't have the capital, the production ability or the number of employees on hand to try and undersell anyone at this time. Maybe if they start working towards it now they could do it in 5-10 years, but not right now.

I didn't say that they would be in the green, nor would it be sustainable for long, but that they would probably be able to do it better than their competitors.

The point I was trying to make was that it would essentially be suicide for the company and they have no good reason to kill themselves.

And on this I disagree - they are defending a proportionally shrinking market rather than trying to grow either their share of the market or of the market itself.

To put it bluntly - do think that it costs ChapterHouse less to make their miniatures than it does GW?

Do you think that ChapterHouse isn't making a profit? Despite each miniature costing more to make than a GW miniature?

If GW's finances are that fragile... then it is because GW is mishandling their finances.

They are losing share in a market that they helped create, and are doing so in a manner that is destroying their public image.

But we have known that for a while.... The company would rather spend a million defending IP that they do not own than spend that same money advertising.

The Auld Grump