Chapterhouse Lawsuit - Settlement reached, Appeals withdrawn - Pg 234! Chapterhouse to re-open store

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Janthkin**

Topic. Stay on it.

Paulson's post is the final post along the lines of malicious litigations/over-broad litigation strategy/anything similar. It's not appropriate for this thread.

**paulson games**

czakk wrote:

This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Tuesday, December 17, 2013:
MINUTE entry before the Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Motion to amend/correct [466] is terminated as moot based upon the parties' stipulation. The hearing set for 12/17/2013 is vacated.

Now we are back to waiting for the appeal to be filed.

Motion 466 was the one in reference to the caretaking of the molds and masters, correct?

I do wish this would close so we'd have a finite answer, but I imagine the appeals process is going to take as long to resolve (if not longer) than the whole case has taken so far.

**RiTides**

It probably will take that long... but in the end, I don't really mind. The fact that it's open-ended is OK, from the standpoint that CHS has pro-bono representation, and they are making sure that GW does not lay claim to more than they should.

As a result of this case, GW's sometimes unreasonable claims will have been slightly reigned in. The fact that it is ongoing actually highlights the fact that that is happening, and I would think may make GW less likely to bite off another such case while it is still having to deal with this one.

In other words, I don't think the appeals process stretching out is necessarily going to be a bad thing for CHS / companies like them, or for the more general "what is protected" question that is being legally determined through this process.

**czakk**

paulson games wrote:
czakk wrote:

This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Tuesday, December 17, 2013:
MINUTE entry before the Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Motion to amend/correct [466] is terminated as moot based upon the parties' stipulation. The hearing set for 12/17/2013 is vacated.

Now we are back to waiting for the appeal to be filed.

Motion 466 was the one in reference to the caretaking of the molds and masters, correct?

I do wish this would close so we'd have a finite answer, but I imagine the appeals process is going to take as long to resolve (if not longer) than the whole case has taken so far.

Yes that was the moulds issues. That was afaik the only live issue left.

The appeals process should go faster than the trial. Appeals courts operate on fairly tight timelines and the scope of the hearing is narrower than the trial. Could be finished in a year.

We should see the notice of appeal by CHS in mid January - depending on how the court counts days.

**weeble1000**

paulson games wrote:
czakk wrote:

This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Tuesday, December 17, 2013:
MINUTE entry before the Honorable Matthew F. Kennelly: Motion to amend/correct [466] is terminated as moot based upon the parties' stipulation. The hearing set for 12/17/2013 is vacated.

Now we are back to waiting for the appeal to be filed.

Motion 466 was the one in reference to the caretaking of the molds and masters, correct?

I do wish this would close so we'd have a finite answer, but I imagine the appeals process is going to take as long to resolve (if not longer) than the whole case has taken so far.

Appeals are actually pretty quick in comparison. It's sort of like litigation by mail. There's few appearances and no discovery; mostly consisting of research and briefing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:
The fact that it is ongoing actually highlights the fact that that is happening, and I would think may make GW less likely to bite off another such case while it is still having to deal with this one.

By the blood of our people are your lands kept safe...

**Chapterhouse**

paulson games wrote:
gunslingerpro wrote:
So Paulson, did you incur any cost as a result of this litigation? Or do you have recourse for impromper use of litigation?

There were significant costs, but it's certainly much less than what CH has dealt with. I was dropped from the suit before all the pre-trial work and depositions started which is where the bulk of the legal hours accrue. But they did keep me tied up with my lawyer for well over a year, when it was a situation that could have been resolved very quickly. (or avoided entirely had they done 5 min of facts checking)

Besides simple legal fees there's a secondary loss in the fact that the GW fanboy base withdraws their business as they see things as being found in contempt of GW and therefore being somehow toxic. There was a very sharp drop in business once suit was filed and that didn't come back even when I was removed some the case. So like I'd mentioned before GW doesn't need to win in court to get their desired goals. They bury you in bills and then the fan base shuns you which further eats away at the financial stability of the business.

While it wasn't enough to put my company under per say it did have an sizeable impact. The other major area that most people don't consider is the stress and emotional cost as it's not something you can measure in black and white terms. I got into doing miniatures because I love gaming and I love the creative process of making models. Lawsuits end up dominating and consuming your whole life, you might be functioning but your mind is always stressed and on the case and you need to devote a ton of additional time to dealing with your lawyer and reviewing materials etc. Regardless of if you win or lose it still takes a heavy toll.

I've found my personal enjoyment of gaming and hobby work greatly reduced as a result of the case and that's not something measureable in terms of money. As an artist I need to be passionate about my work and when you get that passion all but ground out of you it's very hard to reignite that creative spark and get back into the same mental groove that allowed you to be where you were before. I used to be an avid gamer and now I barely touch any games let alone anything GW related, it altered a lot of my gaming and artistic interests which has had a very big impact on the type of drive and mindset that I approach projects with. (It's not all negative but it's certainly different than how it previously was).

That's why there's laws in place allowing people to counter sue in cases of legal bullying or frivolous legal action. The damage that's done is usually far beyond just the dollar amount of the trials due to loss of business and emotional strain. The unfortunate aspect is that in most cases in order to counter sue you need to have judge dismiss the case or you have to fight it all the way through and be found clear of every claim. Settling and being removed from the case unfortunately doesn't meet that criteria. In CH's case they have a difficult challenge as they have hundreds of items that were in dispute and if they were found to be infringing on even just one item it can basically render them incapable of counter suit, which is why firms typically employ the everything and kitchen sink approach. You throw everything you can in the complaint hoping that you can get even one item to stick.

The secondary problem is that in order to counter sue that means you have to go through the process of having an entirely separate trial in addition to the one you just sat through, which means you can spend years if not a decade or more tied up in court, (when you consider both trials) which is a very exhausting process. Often the amounts you could get out of winning a counter suit aren't worth the personal toll it costs in order to pursue trying to recoup on legal costs. Also that second trial much like the first trial is not something that you can predict the results of, you could go in thinking you have a slam dunk counter-case only to get shot down by a unpredicted result from the jury.

Even after all of that if you win in court you still don't exactly "win" as the amount of effort makes it more a pyrrhic victory than a win that will make up for all the lost sales and lost time and stress.

I do feel for what Nick has been going through as it's much more extreme than what I've had to deal with. It does irritate me when people are quick to judge the case as it's incredible complex and they very rarely take into consideration what it means on a personal level to those that are involved. Lawsuits are not fun and games and I wouldn't wish them on anyone.

.

QFT... :( The loss of passion and drive is hard to register. Having gone through a huge personal loss during the time of the trial as well... lets just say its been very hard.

John, is correct about everything he has posted regarding the impact.

Ill go back to my hole now

**the shrouded lord**

Best of luck to chapterhouse. I look forward to seeing more companies openly announce what they sell parts for, you'll be revolutionaries.
P.s: I had to spell that word three times before I got it right. Lol.

**czakk**

Chapterhouse has started the appeals process by filing its notice of appeal.

Appeal Number 14-1027 in the 7th circuit.

Transcript is due on the 21st of January.
Chapterhouse's brief is due the 18th of February. I imagine there are a bunch of SOs who are going to have a late Valentines day.

NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that Chapterhouse Studios LLC, defendant in the above
named case, hereby appeals to the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit from: (1) the Judgment in a Civil Action entered in this action on June 27, 2013 (Dkt. No. 403), including all prior and underlying interlocutory orders; (2) the Order on Post-Trial Motions entered in this action on December 5, 2013 (Dkt. No. 462); and (3) the Permanent Injunction entered in this action on December 5, 2013 (Dkt. No. 465), as modified by the Plaintiff and Defendant’s joint Stipulation Regarding Disposition of Materials on December 13, 2013 (Dkt. No. 469).
Dated: January 6, 2014

Wilmer Hale has joined Winston & Strawn as counsel for Chapterhouse.

Donald R. Steinberg
Louis W. Tompros
Kevin A. Goldman
Elizabeth C. Mooney
of
WILMER CUTLER PICKERING
HALE AND DORR LLP

**agnosto**

So, let me get this straight. In addition to the team from Winston&Strawn, we now have an additional team from a firm that has offices in England and is sending members like Steinberg who is the Chair of their IP department.
Tompros who seems to be their appeal linchpin.
Both of these guys graduated from Harvard Law, cum laude. Tompros clerked for the Supreme Court of Mass. and the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals (didn't say which one).
Goldman has written books on copy protection and is a fair use specialist.
And Mooney, the cheerleader....I mean associate.

Yeah, GW's hosed.

**fullheadofhair**

You know, at some point you almost have to pity GW.

This is like a bad story line on a WWE event and now other 'good guy' wrestlers are coming in from the changing room and starting to hit the baddies with chairs.

This is not going to go well. These people would not be joining unless they were fairly certain they would win. No-one joins a losing case, right?

**Howard A Treesong**

It's not a certain win so best not get carried away, however many big names CHS has on their side.

**jonolikespie**

My understanding was that they aren't jumping on for the certain win, they are jumping on because if GW wins with such sweeping, general claims then that could create a precedent that would hurt IP law as a whole and endanger actual, paying, clients of these firms.

**Pacific**

fullheadofhair wrote:
You know, at some point you almost have to pity GW.

This is like a bad story line on a WWE event and now other 'good guy' wrestlers are coming in from the changing room and starting to hit the baddies with chairs.

Congratulations, that's probably the funniest thing anyone has written in the 200 pages or so of this thread

**xruslanx**

fullheadofhair wrote:
You know, at some point you almost have to pity GW.

This is like a bad story line on a WWE event and now other 'good guy' wrestlers are coming in from the changing room and starting to hit the baddies with chairs.

This is not going to go well. These people would not be joining unless they were fairly certain they would win. No-one joins a losing case, right?

This is nonsense. Go back through the thead and read what the judge said about chs lawyers.

**Palindrome**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
It's not a certain win so best not get carried away, however many big names CHS has on their side.

Few things are ever certain. In this case though things are not looking good for GW. The gathering pool of apparently heavyweight lawers, all of whom are essentially working for free, are unlikely to be fighting this case for fun or to stand up for the little guy.

**Herzlos**

xruslanx wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:
You know, at some point you almost have to pity GW.

This is like a bad story line on a WWE event and now other 'good guy' wrestlers are coming in from the changing room and starting to hit the baddies with chairs.

This is not going to go well. These people would not be joining unless they were fairly certain they would win. No-one joins a losing case, right?

This is nonsense. Go back through the thead and read what the judge said about chs lawyers.

Can you quote something that makes you think that statement was nonsense?

I've been following this from the start and don't recall ever seeing CHS being referred to by the judge a way that implies they are they bad guy, but there's been plenty of objections and open contempt for GW, including when they were caught out lying.

**Azreal13**

Herzlos wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:
You know, at some point you almost have to pity GW.

This is like a bad story line on a WWE event and now other 'good guy' wrestlers are coming in from the changing room and starting to hit the baddies with chairs.

This is not going to go well. These people would not be joining unless they were fairly certain they would win. No-one joins a losing case, right?

This is nonsense. Go back through the thead and read what the judge said about chs lawyers.

Can you quote something that makes you think that statement was nonsense?

I've been following this from the start and don't recall ever seeing CHS being referred to by the judge a way that implies they are they bad guy, but there's been plenty of objections and open contempt for GW, including when they were caught out lying.

+1

I've been reading this thread for at least the last year and I have no idea what you're referring to..

**OIIIIIIO**

I am fairly happy about seeing CH get this kind of representation. Money begets money and the little guy usually pays the price. I understand that all of these attorneys are in it for something, but it does my heart good to see a over-reaching company get pushed around a little bit, instead of being the one that does the pushing. I am not a lawyer or anything, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last week!

**AndrewC**

xruslanx wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:
You know, at some point you almost have to pity GW.

This is like a bad story line on a WWE event and now other 'good guy' wrestlers are coming in from the changing room and starting to hit the baddies with chairs.

This is not going to go well. These people would not be joining unless they were fairly certain they would win. No-one joins a losing case, right?

This is nonsense. Go back through the thead and read what the judge said about chs lawyers.

I must be missing the bits you think are important, or I am completely misunderstanding your post. CHS lawyers have not been sanctioned by the court or 'put down' by the court. Perhaps you could explain what you meant by your comment?

Cheers

Andrew

**Saldiven**

azreal13 wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote:
You know, at some point you almost have to pity GW.

This is like a bad story line on a WWE event and now other 'good guy' wrestlers are coming in from the changing room and starting to hit the baddies with chairs.

This is not going to go well. These people would not be joining unless they were fairly certain they would win. No-one joins a losing case, right?

This is nonsense. Go back through the thead and read what the judge said about chs lawyers.

Can you quote something that makes you think that statement was nonsense?

I've been following this from the start and don't recall ever seeing CHS being referred to by the judge a way that implies they are they bad guy, but there's been plenty of objections and open contempt for GW, including when they were caught out lying.

+1

I've been reading this thread for at least the last year and I have no idea what you're referring to..

I would also like to see to what X is referring.

I've been following this thread since post #1 (just checked, my first post in this thread was post #9; been following this for a looooong time), and the only negative things I can recall Judge Kennely saying about an attorney were directed towards Moskin (attorney for GW).

**kirsanth**

Saldiven wrote:
I would also like to see to what X is referring.

If one did not know better, one would think this was a meme.

**Laughing Man**

kirsanth wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
I would also like to see to what X is referring.
If one did not know better, one would think this was a meme.

To be fair, wondering what orifices X is pulling some of his material out of is rapidly approaching local meme status here on Dakka.

**weeble1000**

He's probably referring obliquely to various of Kennelly's 'a pox on both your houses' remarks, such as the quote I read on here somewhere about the Judge complaining about the attorneys' kids arguing the case in front of him.

It is no secret that Kennelly is not pleased with either party's representation in this case, and I think he even suggested that CHS was being needlessly pugilistic or reticent to compromise because it is being represented pro-bono.

That may be what he was talking about. A judge fussing at lawyers from the bench about a case not settling out is not much of an indictment and he didn't single anyone out.

However, he did sanction Jonathan E Moskin personally for "deliberately or at least recklessly" withholding discoverable documents.

**Saldiven**

You know, this thread's third birthday is in a bit over two months. (First post was 3-23-2011.)

Since we're just starting the appeals process, does that mean we have another 2.5+ years to wait for final resolution, or is the longest part of the process behind us?

**xruslanx**

weeble1000 wrote:
He's probably referring obliquely to various of Kennelly's 'a pox on both your houses' remarks, such as the quote I read on here somewhere about the Judge complaining about the attorneys' kids arguing the case in front of him.

It is no secret that Kennelly is not pleased with either party's representation in this case, and I think he even suggested that CHS was being needlessly pugilistic or reticent to compromise because it is being represented pro-bono.

That may be what he was talking about. A judge fussing at lawyers from the bench about a case not settling out is not much of an indictment and he didn't single anyone out.

However, he did sanction Jonathan E Moskin personally for "deliberately or at least recklessly" withholding discoverable documents.

That is what i was referring to. The judge reckons chs' lawyers ard prolonging the case to save face, or words to that effect.

Not that gw's lawyers are innocent, there are few who are. But this really isn't black and white.

**RiTides**

Actually, I don't think that's what he implied at all xruslanx. He was mad that they didn't settle and get it off his docket. The judge was pretty immature in that regard, I think... he really didn't do his job all that well in my opinion, and I hope the appeals court says as much.

The result of the case is an absolute mess as it currently stands, and he didn't seem to really aid in the lessening of that in any way, once it became clear that the parties weren't going to settle.

**kronk**

jonolikespie wrote:
My understanding was that they aren't jumping on for the certain win, they are jumping on because if GW wins with such sweeping, general claims then that could create a precedent that would hurt IP law as a whole and endanger actual, paying, clients of these firms.

I don't know anything about law, but this seems like an entirely sensible post.

**czakk**

Saldiven wrote:
You know, this thread's third birthday is in a bit over two months. (First post was 3-23-2011.)

Since we're just starting the appeals process, does that mean we have another 2.5+ years to wait for final resolution, or is the longest part of the process behind us?

Should go much faster than the trial. A year, year and a half to a decision tops.

**Howard A Treesong**

If CHS come to some agreement with GW to settle it will likely hit them in the wallet and they'll have to lose some products. You don't just settle with people because they make a lot of noise, you have every right to fend off aggressive legal action. GW could drop the action if they want, they choose not to.

If everyone were to settle halfway to make judges' lives easier, then companies like GW could trump up any rubbish against anyone and get freebies when the defendant inevitably meets halfway for settlement. That is in fact what some malicious companies do. They bully other companies with threats of total destruction to force a settlement that still leaves them in a bad way. To criticise a defendant for not settling with an IP bully is a total nonsense. It might just be childish toy soldiers to Judge Kennelly who is expressing his irritation, but people's businesses hang on this and there are wider implications relating to intellectual property.

CHS have no reason to settle while their lawyers are willing to support them, if the case lacks merit they won't continue to get pro-bono support on demand, you don't just get endless free legal support whenever you like. Even if CHS won everything they are still out of pocket after fighting this for the last three years, no settlement is likely to compensate CHS for their losses.

Rather than criticise CHS for dragging this case out 'because they have pro-bono', ask why their lawyers feel it is worthwhile to continue supporting them? If they are fuelling a hopeless case, then they should be criticised, not CHS for accepting their advice and support. But I don't believe this is a hopeless case, and that's why it's pressing ahead.

**TheAuldGrump**

weeble1000 wrote:
He's probably referring obliquely to various of Kennelly's 'a pox on both your houses' remarks, such as the quote I read on here somewhere about the Judge complaining about the attorneys' kids arguing the case in front of him.

It is no secret that Kennelly is not pleased with either party's representation in this case, and I think he even suggested that CHS was being needlessly pugilistic or reticent to compromise because it is being represented pro-bono.

That may be what he was talking about. A judge fussing at lawyers from the bench about a case not settling out is not much of an indictment and he didn't single anyone out.

However, he did sanction Jonathan E Moskin personally for "deliberately or at least recklessly" withholding discoverable documents.

And remember this is a judge that used the phrase 'whatever planet they play Warhammer 40K on'. He really and truly does not care about the danged game!

He just wanted the whole thing out of his courtroom.

The judge was not looking at the greater scope of the results from this trial - he wanted the case finished, everybody to settle out of court, and go way. He was annoyed that the case was taking place in his court, not concerned about why the case had garnered so much pro bono attention.

But, while he was annoyed with all the lawyers in this case, it was GW's lawyers that actually got sanctioned - not Chapter House.

And what X has not noticed is that the amount of pro bono attention the case has been getting has not gone down after the trial....

It was not the quick win that the lawyers are after, it is a chance to help shape IP law via precedent.

These things look good on your jacket.

The Auld Grump