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 prplehippo wrote:

If anything this case has probably helped CHS more than hurt them, at least I think it will in the long run when it's all over.

Apparently GW didn't learn anything from the 2 Live Crew incident of the early 90's.

Probably OOT but what was this incident?

 keltikhoa wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:


GW has sunk an absurd amount of money into a case in which they lost 2/3 of the claims (not including ones they doubled-back on before judgement), and are now being hoisted upon their own petard in a risky appeals case that they cannot escape. This entire freezing of CH's assets (in the hope that CH will fold under the financial pressure) is a pretty clear sign that GW is getting desperate to get out of this case.

The silliest part about this is that, as has been pointed out by people more expert than I, GW has spent more money photocopies for this case than CHS has cleared as profit during their entire existence.

GW would have been far better off talking to CHS up front and working out a "here's some money, go do something else" agreement than they have been in pursuing this case.

Unfortunately your suggestion is taking the short view of the problem. GW is trying to take the long view in so far as precedent is concerned.
Yes paying off CHS to shut down may have been cheep solution to the CHS problem but then what do you do about WhersMySettlement Studios, GWshouldPayMeToo Studios, and GimmeMoney Studios, who are all other companies run by different people doing the the same thing CHS was doing.

The best I can tell is GW is looking at it as, Once we have a ruling in our favor then our C&D bully tactic will carry more weight and work even more effectively, and we can just scare all the other little studios into submission without having to pay settlements.

That's why you have a non-disclosure agreement on the settlement. GW announces that they pursued legal action and CHS agreed to shut down, and that's all any of those other potential companies know.

Stuff like this happens every day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 prplehippo wrote:

If anything this case has probably helped CHS more than hurt them, at least I think it will in the long run when it's all over.

Apparently GW didn't learn anything from the 2 Live Crew incident of the early 90's.

Probably OTT but what was this incident?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell_v._Acuff-Rose_Music,_Inc.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 prplehippo wrote:

If anything this case has probably helped CHS more than hurt them, at least I think it will in the long run when it's all over.

Apparently GW didn't learn anything from the 2 Live Crew incident of the early 90's.

Probably OOT but what was this incident?

2 Live Crew was a rap band that was pretty much unknown, and probably would have stayed that way, until parents and other groups started complaining about the foul nature of their music on the news and made a huge deal out of trying to ban their albums and live performances.

IIRC this is also why we now have "explicit lyrics" stickers now.

But due to all the publicity it gave the band they wound up getting more popular than ever.

Negative publicity can be just as useful ad good publicity and those groups protesting 2 Live Crew didn't understand that.

Al Gore's wife, Tipper, was instrumental in the drive for the "explicit lyrics" advisory. This was her baby:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parents_Music_Resource_Center

Stay on topic. It's been a good thread so far.

Agreed - let's return to discussing the Chapterhouse case... Thanks.

In the beginning there was no law, save the big dude with the even bigger club. That was not very good. Then there was some dude who thought that making some fixed laws would clean up the mess. That was better. Then there were some who thought that these laws should apply to everyone, that was even better. Then someone had the bright idea that judges have to abide by the word of the law, not the spirit of the law. And then everything went downhill again...

I'm not sure why there's no limit on how long a case might be processed. I feel like there should be some set timeframe whithin which a descision is made, so that these stalling tactics can't be used to put the opponent on hold. Is there some fixed date when the judge is going to decide something by now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Probably OOT but what was this incident?

Games Workshop described units in their codex but never made models for them. CH made these models and GW got all mad and self-righteous and tried to shut them down for copyright infringement. Chapterhouse said "how can we copy something that you never did". Rest is legal mudslinging, lawbending and siege tactics.

That is in addition to the fact that CHS made things that were sized to fit onto and/or convert GW models... which GW did not like, either.

Eric

PDF copies of CHS' memoradum and supporting affidavit. Didn't see them posted before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Summary: CHS can't get a bond or a loan. Business is too small for banks to be interested. Has proposed that GW accept / asks the Court to fashion an alternative form of security using an escrow account into which net profits from sales will be deposited and CHS inventory / equipment as security.

Also looks like no settlement was reached and they intend to ask the 7th circuit to reinstate the appeal briefing process. (page 43 -emails between Mr. Johannes and Mr. Keener.)

That looks pretty straightforward from CHS; they own more stuff than the bond would be for (though I'm sure GW won't like that most of it is in product - to get their money back they'd need to sell off CHS minis). Continuing the freeze will likely cause CHS to go under without being able to appeal, and GW won't get their remaining $23k.

Can GW refute any of that whilst still looking reasonable?

Herzlos wrote:
Can GW refute any of that whilst still looking reasonable?

I think GW does not look reasonable as it is and there's little they can do to change that.

Honestly, if I were GW, i'd just have bought CHS, enjoyed the new models, necessary tools and equipment for the existing range and avoided this mudslinging that's gonna cost them a metric crapton in lawyer fees.

Not that I necessarily think they should be using it for paying off the fine (or whether they should be a fine at all),

but what has happened to the money from the chapterhouse KS ?

(or has it already been converted into minis?)

They've come to an arrangement.

And from the appeals court


Let the speculation on the settlement terms begin!

Waiting on the people that are learned in legal jargon to explain in full.

Does this mean the legal battle is over?

 RivenSkull wrote:
Waiting on the people that are learned in legal jargon to explain in full.

Does this mean the legal battle is over?

Yes. The appeals were withdrawn with prejudice, so they can't come back. At the trial level the only thing left is the injunction forbidding CHS from selling certain models. The 25k damages are gone (but could have been dealt with in a private settlement). The asset freeze is gone as well as a consequence.

--

We don't know the terms of the settlement (who really won) obviously.

czakk wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:
Waiting on the people that are learned in legal jargon to explain in full.

Does this mean the legal battle is over?

Yes. The appeals were withdrawn with prejudice, so they can't come back. At the trial level the only thing left is the injunction forbidding CHS from selling certain models. The 25k damages are gone (but could have been dealt with in a private settlement). The asset freeze is gone as well as a consequence.

--

We don't know the terms of the settlement obviously.

Well, there's hope that CHS came out and survived, will keep on selling, and GW has a pair of black eyes when it comes to their IP legal crap.

Wow, after such a long time waiting this kind of feels like an anti climax.

So, in essence, GW lost?

They, apparently, haven't received damages, as Nick is on record as saying CHS can't afford to pay it, but might have negotiated a payment plan?


But otherwise, by percentages, and by virtue of their own stated aims, they have not achieved what they set out to?

So it seems like GW won a battle but lost the war and agreed to a stalemate.

CRAP. Don't like the sound of this.

I was hoping for GW to crash and burn.

 Azreal13 wrote:
But otherwise, by percentages, and by virtue of their own stated aims, they have not achieved what they set out to?

If Chapterhouse is still doing business in the near future then no, they didn't. That was the only thing they originally set out to do, shut down Chapterhouse.

And then, presumably, every other third party company that sells bits or models that can be used on their models or in their games, because if I'm not mistaken they said they had a list of other companies they were "keeping an eye on" besides Chapterhouse.

Agreed, it feels a bit anticlimactic to not get to know the actual outcome of all this. Hopefully the chapterhouse website will be up the next few days and say something about their plans for the future.

Seems like someone at GW decided that this was more a thorn in the side than anything else. Could be there was concern that CHS might prevail on certain items during appeal and wanted to prevent that?

If there was a settlement, wouldn't there be evidence of that, even if the details were under NDA?

On the other hand, the CHS website is still down. If it comes back and business resume as normal that would tell us the agreement was favorable?

 Breotan wrote:
Seems like someone at GW decided that this was more a thorn in the side than anything else. Could be there was concern that CHS might prevail on certain items during appeal and wanted to prevent that?

I think that's likely; the lost enough without a sucessful appeal from CHS. I wonder if they hoped they could bury it under the news about the new CEO?
I'm a bit surprised that CHS agreed to settle though, but it's likely that the asset freeze hurt pretty badly and he wanted it over for his and his customers sake (since there was a lot of orders that couldn't be shipped).

If there was a settlement, wouldn't there be evidence of that, even if the details were under NDA?

We'll be able to get hints, based on what happens with the CHS site (when it comes back, what's on it, what they do next) but I doubt we'll get a statement from either side or get to the bottom of it.

At least on the plus side, it's weakened GW and hopefully put them off trying such nonsense again.

 Shandara wrote:
On the other hand, the CHS website is still down. If it comes back and business resume as normal that would tell us the agreement was favorable?

I was going to say, that's probably the clincher; let's wait and see if the website re-opens, and if it carries most of the stock that it held previously.

Hopefully the settlement does not mean the end of CHS. That will really be the test of who actually 'won' because GW's clear goal was to put them out of business. I can't see why CHS would agree to something that wasn't fairly favourable, Nick lasted this long with the asset freeze and it would likely be lifted very soon. Clearly GW put him in a very difficult spot by freezing all his assets, but that's what a corporate bully can do. Surely he was able to use the lifting of the assets freeze as leverage against GW? Or had it just bled him so much that he was forced into agreement?

I'm thinking the best that can be hoped for is that he's agreed to drop the appeal, which out GW at some risk, and accept the damages which will be paid off at some miniscule rate. Or the damages may have been brushed away, if GW want to avoid taking the case further. See it from their view, it'll cost them far more than those damages will recover to press on with this case which puts more of their IP at risk. A settlement to kill the appeal and an NDA to spare embarrassment is ideal. Someone said that GW may try to bury this with the news of a new CEO, maybe it was the new CEO that decided to kill this?

I wonder how GW will spin this in their next investors report? It's not a win, it's a settlement. After pouring an 'indecent amount' of investors money into this case over four years, they've settled rather than press the point home and prove the strength of their moat and wall against an ant, like CHS.

Given that GW was given a hard deadline for things to move forwards to the appeal just before this happened, and that a couple of days ago CH seemed to be ready to go to appeal, could this be GW seeing they can't stall anymore and win through attrition so they panicked and caved in to CH's requests?

 jonolikespie wrote:
Given that GW was given a hard deadline for things to move forwards to the appeal just before this happened, and that a couple of days ago CH seemed to be ready to go to appeal, could this be GW seeing they can't stall anymore and win through attrition so they panicked and caved in to CH's requests?

More a called bluff than a panic I would say. It appears that GW applied their last tactic, the court had enough and hemming and hawing and set the final ball rolling.

My guess here is that GW dropped their claim to judgement and possibly agreed to cover some costs and CH agreed to something that I can't guess yet. I agree whether the website comes back up or not will be the telling indicator.

While I'm not thrilled with how this ended (settlement versus a judgment) I am glad that it is finally over so that he can move on with his life without it looming over his head.