Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think the 2nd and 11nth primarchs met with one of six possible ends.

Pre Discovery by the Emperor
1. Primarch encountered chaos and turned forcing the Emperor to kill him when he arrived.
2. Primarch was mutated by world of his landing and the Emperor had to kill him when he arrived.
3. Primarch landed on an alien world where he was either killed or indoctrinated into their race say the Eldar and the Emperor had to kill him when he arrived.
4. He was never discovered.
Post Discovery
4. His gene batch was completely unstable leading to the loss of the whole legion, the Emperor made him his personal Executioner.
5. He fell to madness, mutation or chaos after his ascension to Legion Primarch the Legion threw him out the Emperor wiped their minds and they became the blood ravens.
6. The legion did something so hateful and dangerous all records had to be cleansed of their heresy, turning to the C'Tan Necron gods instead of Chaos. I gather they also went in for metal flesh transformation.

Interesting. Although the blood raven thing doesn't work out with the foundings etc. More likely they were mind wiped and became a part of the ultramarine horde.

Both missing Primarchs were found as they had statues of them.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Interesting. Although the blood raven thing doesn't work out with the foundings etc. More likely they were mind wiped and became a part of the ultramarine horde.

Blood Ravens are not from the Unknown Legions - they're probably descendants of loyalist Fourth Fellowship 'hidden' within the XIII Legion along with loyalist Iron Warriors by Roboutte Guilliman.

I swear it's always been said that fully half of the legions turned traitor, if this includes the 2 missing legions I don't know. My theory is one primarch (purged) refused to submit to the Emperors Authority are were dealt with, possibly Space Wolves.

The "lost" I have in my head was that he was never found, and his legion were consequently destroyed as they would have had his gene seed, so I don' t think they would have been used to fill other legions. Maybe formed the Grey Knights? Custodes?

Tadashi wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Interesting. Although the blood raven thing doesn't work out with the foundings etc. More likely they were mind wiped and became a part of the ultramarine horde.

Blood Ravens are not from the Unknown Legions - they're probably descendants of loyalist Fourth Fellowship 'hidden' within the XIII Legion along with loyalist Iron Warriors by Roboutte Guilliman.

Whilst the Blood Ravens are unlikely to have beenva lost legion, your 'probably' is just as unbased as any other theory.

kanekaneo wrote:I swear it's always been said that fully half of the legions turned traitor, if this includes the 2 missing legions I don't know. My theory is one primarch (purged) refused to submit to the Emperors Authority are were dealt with, possibly Space Wolves.

The "lost" I have in my head was that he was never found, and his legion were consequently destroyed as they would have had his gene seed, so I don' t think they would have been used to fill other legions. Maybe formed the Grey Knights? Custodes?

As already said both primarchs were found, due to the fact that valed statues existed for both and all primarchs were forbidden to talk about both.

Grey Knights - No, their founding, although not in detail, clearly rebutes this. The tutors and first leaders of the chapter were loyalist marines, but all initiates had a unique geneseed so were not from any previous chapter.

Custodes - No, they are not space marines, the custodes are made not selected, they are a completely different creation.

Maybe the two legions went to war with each other?

For example, maybe one Primarch did something wrong ("the lost") and the other Primarch destroyed them?

Maybe the Emperor disapproved of such a heavy-handed response, and punished this by destroying the second primarch, in turn, with the Space wolves? Thus making them "the purged?"

Any survivors of the conflict might then have been inducted into the Ultramarines.

Just another theory.

Early in the fluff, the original Emperor of the Fantasy game was hinted to be a primarch (he fell to earth in a twin tailed comet). That's been retconned now I think, but it would explain the Lost. Unless the Emperor purged him for being killed by an Ork. Of course, that wouldn't explain what happened to his legion unless the Emperor gave up on finding him and just put them in the Ultramarines.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
One of the "lost" Primarchs has to be Omegon; it is the only way that Omegon+Alpharius makes any sense(as otherwise there was 21 Primarchs, with Omy+Alphy being twins).

While travelling through the warp, Alpharius' soul split in two, creating Omegon.

Dont quote me but IIRC, i think the accepted fandom is that the missing 2 chapters did infact betray the emperor, but they did some sort of great redeeming act that allowed them to be absolved.

Their reward was they would not be known as traitors, but since they still betrayed the emperor, all records of them were destroyed, never labeled a traitor, but never known to be heros.

Malcador talks about the two lost legions. He states that the 2nd Legion didn't even get out of the lab basically. What he says is that after the Dark Angels were created, the Emperor was excited after everything went so well in the creation of the Dark Angels that the Emperor got ambitious with the 2nd Legion but something went wrong, terribly wrong to the point that they just scrapped the entire Legion and their Primarch. He never says how far they got with the Legion, who the Primarch actually was and how many Space Marines were created, just that the Legion basically never got fully made. The way he talks though I would imagine enough were created that they considered that they existed.

The 11th Legion was fully created with a proper Legion and was fully instated as a "true" Legion but many sources talk about what happened to this one with all the pieces come together showing that Russ and the Wolves were unleashed on this Legion utterly destroying them and the "loyalists" (I put it in quotes because we don't know what they did or whether they were true traitors) were absorbed into the Ultramarines.

Malcador seemed to be attached to this because his throne is adorned with skulls that have the roman numerals for "2" and "11".

Prospero burns when mortarion speaks to Magnus at nikea or however its spelled. One of the "missing" legions is used to remind Magnus that he shouldn't be tinkering with stuff he does not know. Implying one of the two legions were psychic and that they got shut down hard.

As for above the second legion and primarch were created and certainly got further than the lab. The creation of primarchs were first, only after they were lost the legions were made

This. And also it is stated by a very high up member of the Black Libray that every primarch was not only found. But also was given their legion. The only major caviat being that the order which they were found was not exactly the order they were given control of their legion.......

What one guy in BL says doesn't really mean anything, as each of the authors there have a different interpretation of the 40K setting.

I'm going to stick with that the 2 missing legions are there for the players to create their own legions.

 fox-light713 wrote:
I'm going to stick with that the 2 missing legions are there for the players to create their own legions.

Which was never a thing until a couple of black library authors suggested as much in recent years, and which doesn't actually make any sense.

If those two legions were still in existence, they wouldn't have been completely erased. That would just cause more trouble than it would be worth.

My personal theory is that at least one of the lost primarchs was a female when the Emperor arrived and he couldn't handle it so he killed her and scrubbed their existence from all records.

OomieCrusha wrote:
My personal theory is that at least one of the lost primarchs was a female when the Emperor arrived and he couldn't handle it so he killed her and scrubbed their existence from all records.

I believe there once was a theory, from this forum, or maybe from somewhere else, (Warseers perhaps, who knows?) that proposes:
one of the two Primarchs was female
there was a love triangle involving the two, somehow
???
Both got off'd

 lcmiracle wrote:

OomieCrusha wrote:
My personal theory is that at least one of the lost primarchs was a female when the Emperor arrived and he couldn't handle it so he killed her and scrubbed their existence from all records.

I believe there once was a theory, from this forum, or maybe somewhere else, (Warseers perhaps, who knows?) that proposes:
one of the two Primarchs was female
there was a love triangle involving the two, somehow
???
Both got off'd

Love triangle between the two? Who would have been the third?
Although any kind of romance in the legions could have really screwed with things. Somehow I had never thought of that. I was more reflecting on the almost complete lack of female in earlier 40K with the exception of daemonettes - but they were evil and only there to steal your soul.

 insaniak wrote:

 fox-light713 wrote:
I'm going to stick with that the 2 missing legions are there for the players to create their own legions.

Which was never a thing until a couple of black library authors suggested as much in recent years, and which doesn't actually make any sense.

If those two legions were still in existence, they wouldn't have been completely erased. That would just cause more trouble than it would be worth.

Actually that's been a theory since, well..... Ever. At least since second edition and the 90's. I've been a 40k player for 20 years, and that's been a theory as long as that.

It's been a theory amongst the community. Nobody at GW ever said it until recently.

 insaniak wrote:
It's been a theory amongst the community. Nobody at GW ever said it until recently.

"Until recently"? Where was that? I'd love to read that. (No this isn't sarcastic; I'd really like to see that.)

Theory One

L2(lost) - Failed In production Either: The Big man tried to go even further then "perfect" DA and as, such maybe used xenos/old one dna or did something equaly heretic/experimental (hes the big man, he does what he wants) or the gene seed was cprrupted from the outset meaning he "failed" and thus they had to be wiped to keep up appearances. The big one does not make mistakes officially.

L14 - had to be purged for something even more heretic then going traitor.

Theory Two

L2 - Literally lost along with their primarch in the warp. Maybe got sent to another galaxy all together this undermines emperors invincible seeming reach As well as understanding of chaos as the constant. Therefore CSM don't want to be talking about them either..

Or maybe just caught in a time flux and they are still thinking they are on their way to terra to fight in the HH but are kind of lost in the continuum of time and will pop up a couple millennium too late..
This is kind of my fluffy theory for my marine army I'm making at some point in the future - Lost Sons Legion

L14 - Purged because they started turning vegan, running everything by clean renewable energy and attained a higher state of consciousness where peace was the way of life. Had to be purged.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

I am fine with twins, paternal or identical; they make sense. An engineer who doesn't know that his test-tube has twins in it does not make sense.

You do know that the Emperor is fully aware of Omegon's existence, right? He's always known, but has never had a reason to tell anyone about it. Hell, Lorgar figured it out and even Horus had his suspicion. It's not a secret that only the Alpha Legion knows, but it's a secret that very few know; those that do keep very quiet about it.

The point is, Omegon is Alpharius' twin, not a lost Primarch. The Lost Primarchs are two separate individuals.

What if some of the Smurf successors who claim to be descended from them actually have the gene-seed from those who were absorbed into the old Legion?

 Argive wrote:
L14 - Purged because they started turning vegan, running everything by clean renewable energy and attained a higher state of consciousness where peace was the way of life. Had to be purged.

No, they where banned to catachan to live in eternal piece with nature. Only the carnivores among them survived...

At this point the geneseed would have been so diluted you couldn't tell. And you'd be told that those genetic markers were Ultramarine so you wouldn't have anything to say they weren't.

 GCMandrake wrote:
The believe the books (can't remember which specifically) state that the Emperor's Palace has twenty plinths within its walls. On eighteen of these are statues of the primarchs (after the heresy the traitors are covered with cloths so they cannot be seen). The remaining two are empty plinths.

The plinths aren't empty. They're covered with tarps like the traitor primarchs aren't they?

ok, first of all the "remains folded into the ultramarines" bit we shouldn't take as the truth. remember this is a statement from a word bearer, whose got every reason to think poorly of the ultramarines and not give them their due. (in fact I've heard ADB said once we shouldn't take that statement as truth. not sure if I'm recalling right though) still, it's certinly not the only reason for the ultramarines size. Gulliman is after all noted for being the best of the Primarchs regarding logistics. this, combined with the realm of Ultramar means we should not be suprised at all if the Ultramarines large size is simply because Gulliman simply had a better support structure for recruiting.


that said my theory is that the two legions turned on one another. the primarchs for all their feuding have, until the heresy, held back from outright fratricide. (although IIRC Kruze came close, although went traitor before he could be judged) one legion and primarch killed the other. and was purged as a result. the Primarchs where so horrified that it happened that they all vowed to never speak of the matter again

 Darth Bob wrote:
Hell, Lorgar figured it out and even Horus had his suspicion. It's not a secret that only the Alpha Legion knows, but it's a secret that very few know; those that do keep very quiet about it.

Could you elaborate on this further please? I had an idea that Lorgar might know about Omegon from the gift that Lorgar gave to Alpharius, the gift being the 2 copies of the Book of Lorgar. But never that Horus did.

 dracpanzer wrote:

 GCMandrake wrote:
The believe the books (can't remember which specifically) state that the Emperor's Palace has twenty plinths within its walls. On eighteen of these are statues of the primarchs (after the heresy the traitors are covered with cloths so they cannot be seen). The remaining two are empty plinths.

The plinths aren't empty. They're covered with tarps like the traitor primarchs aren't they?

Empty

The Lightning Tower P9 - The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded? Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary.

 Grey Templar wrote:
At this point the geneseed would have been so diluted you couldn't tell. And you'd be told that those genetic markers were Ultramarine so you wouldn't have anything to say they weren't.

Say the Ultras had taken in an influx of Astartes from one of the Lost Legions, wouldn't integrating them have been a challenge in regards to Gene seed and stock? Would they have left in their existing Geneseed or replaced it with Ultras stock, i'm not sure that's even something they can do as each set is gene coded.