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I now use the black primer, buth i have seen some guys use the white. Even for dark models and it looks nicer than mine.

What do you prefer?

greetz

usually gray or white unless I have a reason for it to be black. black originally caught on so people could leave gaps for lazy shading but with washes out these days that is not much of a factor.

Depends on what color the finished product is going to be. You want bright colors, use white. You want dark or metallics, use black. I do my red Killa Kans in white, and my Deffskulls and Goffs in black. Sometimes I even use both on the same model: for my newest Ork Trukk (Bad Moonz), I prime the frame and engine and wheels and stuff black, and then prime the bed and armor plates white seperately, since they will be yellow in the end.

I use white almost exclusively, even for miniatures that end up being predominantly black (Death Company). I really can't see any legitimate reason to use black, unless you're planing to do a quick dry brush job. Black is the worst possible place to start, it just defies all reason. It always makes me facepalm just a little, when I see people on here talking about 8 coats of yellow, and how Imperial Fists are hard to paint, nonsense.

It's almost impossible to go wrong with a white undercoat, because even if there is some special technique that can only be performed over a black base... Any area of a white mini can easily be painted black in a single thinned to the max coat. The reverse is not true.

I use black for my orks, I find it better and easier. Plus it saves time, as there clothes are black or brown, a tiny bit of gore red, and rarely a bit of bleached bone over the brown.

I have used black most often. I have used white for my tomb kings. I prefer black.

Recently I switched to Vallejo grey primer. It's my new favorite "go to" primer now.

I'm gonna agree with Ouze, It depends on the final product you want and sometimes colors like yellows and oranges would be really easy to paint with a white base coat or models that will have a very bright end result like Eldar, High Elves and Imperial fists.

If it is gonna be dark use black.

Smacks wrote:I use white almost exclusively, even for miniatures that end up being predominantly black (Death Company). I really can't see any legitimate reason to use black, unless you're planing to do a quick dry brush job. Black is the worst possible place to start, it just defies all reason. It always makes me facepalm just a little, when I see people on here talking about 8 coats of yellow, and how Imperial Fists are hard to paint, nonsense.

It's almost impossible to go wrong with a white undercoat, because even if there is some special technique that can only be performed over a black base... Any area of a white mini can easily be painted black in a single thinned to the max coat. The reverse is not true.

I know this is your opinion and all but the McVeys and a number of Golden Demon winners prefer black primer. There are a lot of advantages to both and saying one is worse than the other is just silly.

I always used black undercoat before except on some figures that I wanted to appear bright or had a lot of white/yellow areas. But now I've switched to gray undercoat. I can really recommend the Vallejo gray primer. The only disadvantage is that it's a bit hard on plastic to see if the models have actually been properly undercoated since the color is so similar

As those above...

White for models that you use primarily bright colours on and black for grimdark.

However, white with a few black washes will bring out a nice mix of both if you prep this way before you begin painting.

Alternatively, you can grab a nice medium grey primer if you are still undecided.

Tamiya light grey primer for me. It's a good quality primer and if I want to paint areas black before adding other colours on top for shading purposes then a single coat of paint and I'm done.

Bakerofish wrote:I know this is your opinion and all but the McVeys and a number of Golden Demon winners prefer black primer. There are a lot of advantages to both and saying one is worse than the other is just silly.

Well if you disagree with my opinion: Perhaps you would be so kind as to share some of the advantages of a black undercoat? Rather than trying to debase my view as 'silly' on the basis of a half baked appeal to authority.

'McVeys' and 'unnamed Golden Daemon winners' allegedly preferring black proves nothing. Even if it were true... I never said you can't paint amazing miniatures on a black base coat. What I said was that I can't see any legitimate advantage to doing it that way (at least in terms of quality), and you haven't stated any either.

My assertion would be that pretty much anything you can paint on a black base coat, you could paint exactly the same on a white basecoat but using less coats. With the possible exception of true black (Which should probably only be used for the very darkest shades and black lining anyway) and some metallics. Though even these would only require one very thin extra coat. This weighed against needing multiple extra coats on a black base, for every time you want to paint something lighter than black... which is everything!

Smacks wrote:

Bakerofish wrote:I know this is your opinion and all but the McVeys and a number of Golden Demon winners prefer black primer. There are a lot of advantages to both and saying one is worse than the other is just silly.

Well if you disagree with my opinion: Perhaps you would be so kind as to share some of the advantages of a black undercoat? Rather than trying to debase my view as 'silly' on the basis of a half baked appeal to authority.

'McVeys' and 'unnamed Golden Daemon winners' allegedly preferring black proves nothing. Even if it were true... I never said you can't paint amazing miniatures on a black base coat. What I said was that I can't see any legitimate advantage to doing it that way (at least in terms of quality), and you haven't stated any either.

My assertion would be that pretty much anything you can paint on a black base coat, you could paint exactly the same on a white basecoat but using less coats. With the possible exception of true black (Which should probably only be used for the very darkest shades and black lining anyway) and some metallics. Though even these would only require one very thin extra coat. This weighed against needing multiple extra coats on a black base, for every time you want to paint something lighter than black... which is everything!

I wasn't the one making the argument but I'll comment anyways. Starting on white makes sense in the way artists start painting on a white canvas. The problem I have with white is that it brightens up colors quite a lot. Sometimes this effect can be desired and then sure - go for white! But I mostly paint 40k and don't like the effect it produces on some colors for my army. Also I think the quality of the GW white undercoat is not that good. I know that alone is not an argument against white and there are probably better primers but for some reason gray/black produces better surfaces for me... my problem with black is that it's so hard to see details. Therefore I think gray is the perfect primer, I think colors on top of gray are quite neutral also so that's why I prefer it. But there are good painters that start from white also (I think I recall there was only one of the 'Eavy Metal team that paints on white but still..). If you prefer it and like the style go for it!

Mizeran wrote:The problem I have with white is that it brightens up colors quite a lot. Sometimes this effect can be desired and then sure - go for white! But I mostly paint 40k and don't like the effect it produces on some colors for my army.

White doesn't really 'brighten-up' colours though, it just gives you an accurate reproduction of the colour you are using. If that colour is too bright, then I would suggest it is the fault of the painter mixing the wrong colour, rather than the painted not displaying it properly. To be honest you are probably always going to need a bright colour somewhere on your miniature to provide contrast, black makes painting that area hard work (sometimes 8+ coats work). White on the other hand doesn't make painting dark areas hard work.

One thing I will say about black is that it provides some abience by effectively mixing a little black into all your colours. This 'accidentally' tightens your palette, which would otherwise be quite an advanced painting technique for none artists really understand or want to use. This I think is what most people are referring to when they mention 'grimdark'. Of course you could hold your palette with a whole variety of colours to produce many different moods and effects.

I'm surprised to hear so many of the Evy Metal painters use black, this seems to be a new thing. When I started painting almost all the GW tutorials in WD suggested using white primer (Many of which were by Mike McVey oddly). Now everyone uses black... weird.

If I'm going for lighter colours on top of my models (my Skinks and my Space Wolves) then I prime with white.
If I'm going with darker colours (Saurus, Krox, Wolf Priests) then I go with black.

Strangely enough, my girlfriend says she can't see the detail on the models when she primes in white, so she always primes black.

It really depends on the army or the model. I've tried both, sometimes on very similar miniatures so I can compare them. My reasoning for using black is thus:

My armies are mainly dark in colour, in fact, many of them use black as a primary colour in their armour/robes or at least as piping/metallics. Painting a mini with colours like the one shown below makes sense in black as there are lots of small, fiddly areas that are black, and with a white undercoat I'd have to go around the model painting all of those individual regions. The same with my tau, I think Tau look better with plain black as their metallic colour, rather than boltgun metal etc. Undercoating in black makes all the detail on the back of a crysis suit easy work. As you can simply undercoat in black, then drybrush/highlight the detail rather than have to paint a clean and perfect coat of black carefully onto the metal sections and leave the armour plates untouched.

@smacks

while you're being snippy with me please remember that you started your argument with "black is the worst possible place to start". While you never did say that you can't paint well with a black undercoat, you pretty much established that people who choose black "defy all reason". Maybe you should tone down the hyperbole?

Blacks advantages for speed painting have been mentioned as it allows for a lot of shortcuts. Black also makes it easier to establish shadows and give a sense of "weight" to a mini. And by it's nature black also encourages higher contrast between colors, which may be a good or bad thing depending on what youre painting. Generally, priming black tend to be favored by those who have a "high fantasy/high contrast style" which is awesome for for wargaming minis as these minis are designed to be seen on the table and tend to have little details that need to stand out from 3 feet away.

White is favored by those with a softer "french" style of painting for display pieces. Pieces that will be inspected more up close.

but then again, some people just prefer one color over the other regardless of what style they use

Personally I also like painting metallics over black primer as i like the tooth the primer has. I dont get the same coverage when I paintwith a white primer and paint black over the metallic parts as the black paint covers up the tooth of the white primer.

On the other hand, classical painters usually dont paint on a flat black or flat white background as these tend to interfere with how your eye percieves the colors. Classical painters would then paint their canvas a more neutral color like a grey to lessen this interference or use a color that will help them with their overall hue (blue in nightscenes for instance). Using that logic, grey should be the primer color of choice for serious miniature painters but I find that in the scales that we work in the advantages of grey just dont stand out.

To be honest.. It depends on the finish you want to acheive.

Black undercoat is really easy use to get a tabletop standard relitively quickly.

White is more suited to a more time consuming paint job.

(this is from my experience anyway)

Its down to personal preference, both have advantages, both have disadvantages. A good painter can get a good finish from either of them.

Dan

I've seen some bizarre arguments on Dakka before, but this is really going pear shaped. Arguing about whether or not black or white primer is best is like arguing whether or not a tank brush or a detail brush are best. They are completely different tools for completely different situations, and using black primer for Imperial Fists (or white primer to do Goff battlewagons) as as inappropriate as using a tank brush to do eyes.

I've only ever used black undercoat. I'm of the impression that black is excellent for gaming as it 'pre-shades' the model, that and I paint quite exclusively in dark colours. White or grey, on the other hand, seems to be favoured by showcase painters as it gives them more control over the colours they are applying.

You could, of course, go visit The Army Painter and buy a primer that is also the same colour as the basecoat of your miniature. Just sayin'...

L. Wrex

Ouze wrote:I've seen some bizarre arguments on Dakka before, but this is really going pear shaped. Arguing about whether or not black or white primer is best is like arguing whether or not a tank brush or a detail brush are best. They are completely different tools for completely different situations, and using black primer for Imperial Fists (or white primer to do Goff battlewagons) as as inappropriate as using a tank brush to do eyes.

Well said

Dan

Black primer helps creating shadows in places i cant reach when i paint ( especially when i assemble before painting )

For example , i decided to use white primer on my lizardman and realized i cant reach ANYWHERE , it was so agitating i just stripped the mini.

Bakerofish wrote:while you're being snippy with me please remember that you started your argument with "black is the worst possible place to start". While you never did say that you can't paint well with a black undercoat, you pretty much established that people who choose black "defy all reason". Maybe you should tone down the hyperbole?

Okay, in the interest of not having a silly internet argument I will try. This topic has come up many times before, but the issue has really started to niggle at me a bit lately. In the last week alone I have come across a number of posts by people who seem to be perhaps a bit newer to painting, all having problems because they undercoated their soldiers black, and now can't understand why they are not able to paint over it.

Perhaps instead of "Black is the worst possible place to start" what I should have said is: Black is the hardest possible colour to cover up. In that sense using it as a basecoat (knowing you are going to try and paint other colours over it) does somewhat defy reason.

I'm not saying there is never any reason to undercoat black, but I think if someone is going to start with black then they really aught to know what they are doing and have a plan first (basically have a good reason). This is why it bugs me that people just starting out with painting are being kind of indoctrinated en masse into this idea that 'you must undercoat with black'. Some don't even seem to realise there is an alternative.

Maybe I'm also a little cynical about the whole thing. When I was young(er) GW recommended that you undercoat in white. Now they seem to be recommending you undercoat in black, while also bringing out a line of 'foundation paints'... It's probably just coincidence.

Blacks advantages for speed painting have been mentioned as it allows for a lot of shortcuts. Black also makes it easier to establish shadows and give a sense of "weight" to a mini. And by it's nature black also encourages higher contrast between colors, which may be a good or bad thing depending on what youre painting.

Speed is probably the most often stated reason for basing in black, there are some very fast techniques you can use like drybrushing midtones over a black base. However basing in a lighter colour and dipping in wash is equally fast, and I think gives a much smoother result (I find dry brushing can start to look quite scratchy and powdery).

I think it is also worth noting that while black might seem like a fast way to get started, it can often end up being slower because it needs so many coats to cover up. Even a tiny detail like the white shoulderpad rims on otherwise black raven guard can require so many coats of paint to bring the white back, it would probably have been quicker to start with white and paint everything else black.

I really don't know where you get the idea that black encourages higher contrast, I would say the opposite is true. Black naturally encourages dullness (affectionately known as grimdark). It actually takes quite a lot of fighting to get contrast back in there. Models primed in white however, which then have areas painted black have 100% contrast (all the way from pure black to pure white).

lunerman wrote:Undercoating in black makes all the detail on the back of a crysis suit easy work. As you can simply undercoat in black, then drybrush/highlight the detail rather than have to paint a clean and perfect coat of black carefully onto the metal sections and leave the armour plates untouched.

You don't have to carefully paint all those details, if you just run some clear water over the gaps and then touch a bit of black onto an edge then the water will draw the black pigment into the gaps for you via capillary action. Or you could undercoat in white, add a layer of varnish an then literally dunk the crisis suit into black wash... then do exactly the same method you described of painting and brushing the armored plates, only you would need less coats of paint to achieve the same brightness. Pretty much anything you can do with black you can do just as easily or easier with white using different techniques. Obviously which you like most may come down to subjective preference, but fewer coats is objectively better.

D.Smith wrote:To be honest.. It depends on the finish you want to acheive.

Black undercoat is really easy use to get a tabletop standard relitively quickly.

White is more suited to a more time consuming paint job.

(this is from my experience anyway)

Its down to personal preference, both have advantages, both have disadvantages. A good painter can get a good finish from either of them.

Dan

I can agree with this, as this would be my experience too.

If someone wants to paint 100+ Orks to tabletop standard in a few days, I can understand them choosing to coat in black. But if you are painting to get the best possible results then I think white is nearly always going to allow you to use far less coats on areas that are supposed to be light, which naturally corresponds to less details being covered up or filled in.

Thanks for all the advice

Natorum wrote:Tamiya light grey primer for me. It's a good quality primer and if I want to paint areas black before adding other colours on top for shading purposes then a single coat of paint and I'm done.

The one thing I have to add about this is Tamiya's Light Grey "Fine Surface Primer" is an enamel primer. It is very clingy and can futz up very easily.

Buyer be warned.

I do know some people who (without an airbrush) prime the entire model in black and then do a fine misting of white on top from the direction of the light source so that they already have a form of OSL from basecoat. Personally I don't trust it because I think you run the risk of having your basecoats too thick

TQSplinter wrote:I do know some people who (without an airbrush) prime the entire model in black and then do a fine misting of white on top from the direction of the light source so that they already have a form of OSL from basecoat. Personally I don't trust it because I think you run the risk of having your basecoats too thick

ive been doing this lately. I guess this is one way to avoid the argument. Use all 3

I think I may have to take back my last comment about too much paint on the model in light of Bakers piccy

Kanluwen wrote:

Natorum wrote:Tamiya light grey primer for me. It's a good quality primer and if I want to paint areas black before adding other colours on top for shading purposes then a single coat of paint and I'm done.

The one thing I have to add about this is Tamiya's Light Grey "Fine Surface Primer" is an enamel primer. It is very clingy and can futz up very easily.

Buyer be warned.

I've been fortunate so far that I haven't had any issues with it coating vehicles and figures but I've only used it in low humidity environments and made sure to shake it well. Thanks for the heads up though.

Generally I would use black. However, I sometimes use white if I am going to paint a figure heavily using washes.