Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Seems like some awfully arbitrary cave system that disabled 9' but allows 7'5".

Not really. Seven foot marines can fit in spaces that are built so that normal sized people can comfortably move in them, without having huge amount of wasted space. Now try imagine nine foot marine in your apartment; do you see the problem?

Fortunately, moving around in my apartment never was one of their jobs.

Honestly, I never saw why Marines must enter hab units all the time. Scouts, maybe (They also are small enough to do so) but Tactical Marines are supposed to attack ships, key positions behind frontlines, and buildings of high importance, all of which are almost gauranteed to be able to accomodate their size.

Tyranid Warriors and Nobz do their jobs perfectly well, and so can Marines.

It's like the whole 'Tauren can't be 10 feet!' debate from the WoW forums all over again.

 Ashiraya wrote:

They use the same STC. Using different scales for different users is nothing else than logical. Hell, Inquisitorial Rhinos supposedly also fit ten henchmen, and if you think ten henchmen take as much space as ten Marines- even at 7'- I firmly disagree.

Yet ten allied Space Marines fit in that Inquisitorial Rhino just fine! These different sized Rhinos are completely your invention, and are supported by absolutely nothing.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

They use the same STC. Using different scales for different users is nothing else than logical. Hell, Inquisitorial Rhinos supposedly also fit ten henchmen, and if you think ten henchmen take as much space as ten Marines- even at 7'- I firmly disagree.

Yet ten allied Space Marines fit in that Inquisitorial Rhino just fine! These different sized Rhinos are completely your invention, and are supported by absolutely nothing.

Logic. The same Rhino stats is game mechanics and/or model scale wipe.

Or are you asserting that ten henchmen and ten Marines take the same amount of space?

It's not like there is no precedent for Marines getting bigger equivalents of other things.

“He saw Tycho’s combi-weapon lying on the floor and took a half-step toward it. The idea of taking it up himself died in this mind; the gun was so massive he would never have been able to lift it.”
Pg.320 Blood Angels Omnibus

The angel’s brethren emerged from the dark interior of their landing craft and descended to the plaza. All wore armour of the same blue. All of them carried great weapons too heavy for a mortal man to lift unaided.”
Pg.20 The First Heretic

 Ashiraya wrote:

Or are you asserting that ten henchmen and ten Marines take the same amount of space?

No. But this is an abstraction bue the lack of granularity, as there is not 'slightly bulky' rule. Rhino's however are the same, and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.

It's not like there is no precedent for Marines getting bigger equivalents of other things.

Yes, but history of different sized bolters is murky. In the Inquisitor they're the same. I am not really convinced that there are supposed to be different sized bolters.

“He saw Tycho’s combi-weapon lying on the floor and took a half-step toward it. The idea of taking it up himself died in this mind; the gun was so massive he would never have been able to lift it.”
Pg.320 Blood Angels Omnibus

Combiweapon is not a mere bolter.

The angel’s brethren emerged from the dark interior of their landing craft and descended to the plaza. All wore armour of the same blue. All of them carried great weapons too heavy for a mortal man to lift unaided.”
Pg.20 The First Heretic

It's ludicrous to ever use the tabletop game as a reference for discussing the universe.

The 40K tabletop game is some kind of imaginary version of how combat works in an already imaginary universe, lol. Where battles are fought on neutral ground by evenly matched forces whose individual values shifts depending on what the marketing department says will best promote sales.

A Rhino holds 10 henchmen and 10 Marines because in the game it has a transport capacity measured in "models", not weight, or space.

Let's derail this discussion before it crosses from silly, to stupid.

 Crimson wrote:

No. But this is an abstraction bue the lack of granularity, as there is not 'slightly bulky' rule. Rhino's however are the same, and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Nothing but reason. You have a transport that can carry ten guys. Now you want it to carry ten much bigger guys. Then the transport must be much bigger too, to fit them. I mean, 40K loves spitting on physics, but still.

It really is not any more complicated than that.

Yes, but history of different sized bolters is murky. In the Inquisitor they're the same. I am not really convinced that there are supposed to be different sized bolters.

Inquisitor is old, and RPGs are weird. In Deathwatch a Marine can easily jump like 12 meters. Sure, it's FFG, but it's just as canon as Inquisitor. It's actually debatable if it is more canon since it is newer, despite being made by another studio.

Combiweapon is not a mere bolter.

No, but a flamer attachment does not make a combat rifle that is above average weight impossible to even lift.

These guys were devastators, right?

Nope. Tacticals. And even if they had been, you are basically asking 'Is Straken a mortal?'

You can add a quote from Space Wolf by William King to the list of large Astartes weapons as Sergeant Hakon's chainsword is described as 'massive' and Strybjorn only just about lifts it two-handed even though he is supposed to be strong and fit.

I don't think it has been mentioned but Astartes Power Armour is said to be 250lbs in Codex: Angels of Death.

On Giant Worlds, the size of fauna can almost double, so I wouldn't be surprised if Marines from a Chapter based on a Giant World might reach up to 15-18 feet tall, assuming they recruited from the local population.

Yeah, uh, beware the mutant, the alien, the heretic and all that jazz.

There's a reason we don't have Ogryn Marines, lol

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, uh, beware the mutant, the alien, the heretic and all that jazz.

There's a reason we don't have Ogryn Marines, lol

But it's not a mutation if they're from a Giant World. It's just the way the inhabitants are. Otherwise Space Marines would be considered mutants as well. I'm not talking about Ogryn Marines here. That would be ridiculous!

 Hordini wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, uh, beware the mutant, the alien, the heretic and all that jazz.

There's a reason we don't have Ogryn Marines, lol

But it's not a mutation if they're from a Giant World. It's just the way the inhabitants are.

Uh, no. That's what made Ogryns.

Otherwise Space Marines would be considered mutants as well.

From a strictly biological standpoint, yes, they are. However, Space Marines are intentionally created to be huge. Any humans who had been affected so drastically by their environment to grow ten feet tall would most certainly be at the very minimum classified as abhuman, like Squats and Ogryns, and thus unfit for transformation to Space Marines.

For those that dont consider 7/7.5 feet to be huge, perhaps the average height in 40k is below todays standard? I could understand it. Most of the population works in bad conditions, is ill-fed and is rather young, at least as far as hive worlds go. It would make sense that throughout generations of these conditions the population has seen a decrease in average height.

Perhaps in 40k the average citizen is only 5'6, that would make the marine between one and a half or two feet taller than them. which would make them a fairly imposing sight.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's ludicrous to ever use the tabletop game as a reference for discussing the universe.

The 40K tabletop game is some kind of imaginary version of how combat works in an already imaginary universe, lol. Where battles are fought on neutral ground by evenly matched forces whose individual values shifts depending on what the marketing department says will best promote sales.

A Rhino holds 10 henchmen and 10 Marines because in the game it has a transport capacity measured in "models", not weight, or space.

Let's derail this discussion before it crosses from silly, to stupid.

And yet, there are rules for particularly large beings consuming greater transport space...

 Ashiraya wrote:
[Fortunately, moving around in my apartment never was one of their jobs.

Honestly, I never saw why Marines must enter hab units all the time. Scouts, maybe (They also are small enough to do so) but Tactical Marines are supposed to attack ships, key positions behind frontlines, and buildings of high importance, all of which are almost gauranteed to be able to accomodate their size.

Tac marines are deployed in cities, too. And there might be the need to search for something inside a hab unit. Not demolishing it. Maybe searching for "tactical" objectives.

Rhinos: if a "medium sized" rhino is a stc (standard template construct... Bear with me... Standard), a large scaled one doesn't follow the template, and deviates from the standard. Mechanicus does not dare to move a single screw, I doubt that they would think to odify the scale of the project (that would be heresy, wouldn't it?)

Guardsmen take the same room takey by marines? Well, they carry more supplies: thinking interms of days and weeks of combat, a marine needs way less water and food, and don't bring trinkets and comfort goodies (chocolate bars, cigarettes). I also suspect guardsmen fidgeting and moving way more than a marine, who could ride seating rather immobile.

 Kerrathyr wrote:
Guardsmen take the same room takey by marines? Well, they carry more supplies: thinking in terms of days and weeks of combat, a marine needs way less water and food, and don't bring trinkets and comfort goodie.

And ofc, if the IG is anything like a modern army every squad will have so-called "squad equipment" that takes up room. Tent, a small heater unit, camo nets, entrenching tools etc. On the platoon level they'll have another stack of such, like medical supplies, replacement weapons and other useful stuff.

The marines carry way less of such chaff because of their fighting style - in and out before they even have to think about a coffee break.

I doubt this 'squad equipment' would take anywhere near enough space to compensate.

As for deviating from the STC, Marines do this all the damn time. Combiweapons, stalkers/hunters, LRC, Vindicators, stormravens, hell even Razorbacks are things the Marines either invented, dug up or jury-rigged.

Honestly folks, if you want to imagine them being more than 7' on average go for it. It changes nothing in terms of how they act on the table. They are not 9' tall on average. In novels, fluff, and from the creators themselves, space marines have settled into a 7 - 7.5 foot average. There are some taller, but that doesn't make them the average.

The admech isn't totally unwilling to approve of modifications to STC designs. They just don't like it when your average Joe Schmoe starts screwing around with their crap.

Besides, I think the Rhino upscaling would have been sorted out during/before the Great Crusade. They were doing more inventing/modification back then.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The admech isn't totally unwilling to approve of modifications to STC designs. They just don't like it when your average Joe Schmoe starts screwing around with their crap.

Well that explains why my blood angels techmarine never manages to repair anything on a rhino chasis.

 PhillyT wrote:
Honestly folks, if you want to imagine them being more than 7' on average go for it. It changes nothing in terms of how they act on the table. They are not 9' tall on average. In novels, fluff, and from the creators themselves, space marines have settled into a 7 - 7.5 foot average. There are some taller, but that doesn't make them the average.

Your post doesn't make sense. No, it won't change their stats, but that's because there is no height stat.

Also, the fluff you prefer does not become more 'true' just because you want it to be. It's important to recognise this. And 40k is filled with explicit and implicit examples of other heights than what you would prefer to be the One Truth.

Find a place where it specifies they are 9' tall. Find a designer who has claimed this. Find a piece of art showing a 9' tall space marine.

If you want to think they are 9' tall, go for it. The vast majority of information available doesn't put them anywhere near that, either in crunch, fluff, or table top models themselves.

I think its kind of funny that this thread is still going on, it seems like from the post here. The fluff states 7-7,6.
The rhino probably is not scaled up for Space Marines, I would say that in actualy terms you could probably fit more then 10 Inquist Henchmen in a Rhino but they wanted 10 to be the number everybody used. Thats my take on it at least.

 PhillyT wrote:
Honestly folks, if you want to imagine them being more than 7' on average go for it. It changes nothing in terms of how they act on the table. They are not 9' tall on average. In novels, fluff, and from the creators themselves, space marines have settled into a 7 - 7.5 foot average. There are some taller, but that doesn't make them the average.

When has the fluff ever stated Astartes height to be seven feet? It's typically described as over two meters, but 2.7 meters is nine feet.

One of the space marine codex did specifically says they are over seven feet tall. I'll have to double check.

Also, in the Horus Heresy books, doesn't it say Alpharius (or was it Fulgrim?) is only 7'6" and it states specifically that that is almost the height of normal marines?

Even if you go with the over two meters line, that means they are taller than 6'6". Jumping all the way to 9' seems like quite a stretch to me!

 PhillyT wrote:
One of the space marine codex did specifically says they are over seven feet tall. I'll have to double check.

Also, in the Horus Heresy books, doesn't it say Alpharius (or was it Fulgrim?) is only 7'6" and it states specifically that that is almost the height of normal marines?

Even if you go with the over two meters line, that means they are taller than 6'6". Jumping all the way to 9' seems like quite a stretch to me!

Jumping by a decimal ain't much.

 Wyzilla wrote:

When has the fluff ever stated Astartes height to be seven feet? It's typically described as over two meters, but 2.7 meters is nine feet.

I think codex CSM is the latest source for the seven feet figure. It has been pretty consistent since the second edition. (And no person actually using metric system would describe a nine feet tall individual as 'over two metres tall", even though that is technically true.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

When has the fluff ever stated Astartes height to be seven feet? It's typically described as over two meters, but 2.7 meters is nine feet.

I think codex CSM is the latest source for the seven feet figure. It has been pretty consistent since the second edition. (And no person actually using metric system would describe a nine feet tall individual as 'over two metres tall", even though that is technically true.)

I don't recall height being mentioned at all in the 6th Edition Space Marine codex, not to mention that older codices are old and irrelevant anyway.

I don't recall height being mentioned at all in the 6th Edition Space Marine codex, not to mention that older codices are old and irrelevant anyway.

Incorrect assertion. Older Codices are replaced only when information in a new Codex replaces it. Such as the statement that the SOB are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus from C:WH being replaced by CAS stating that they simply "work closely".

 Wyzilla wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
One of the space marine codex did specifically says they are over seven feet tall. I'll have to double check.

Also, in the Horus Heresy books, doesn't it say Alpharius (or was it Fulgrim?) is only 7'6" and it states specifically that that is almost the height of normal marines?

Even if you go with the over two meters line, that means they are taller than 6'6". Jumping all the way to 9' seems like quite a stretch to me!

Jumping by a decimal ain't much.

Yeah, but to get close to nine feet wouldn't they say more than two and a half meters?

Seriously though, there is nothing to support a 9' height as an average. Never has been. The OP wanted to have some tangible evidence or printed information. Tangible evidence points to seven feet or so. That doesn't mean a person can't imagine them being taller.

 PhillyT wrote:
Find a place where it specifies they are 9' tall. Find a designer who has claimed this. Find a piece of art showing a 9' tall space marine.

If you want to think they are 9' tall, go for it. The vast majority of information available doesn't put them anywhere near that, either in crunch, fluff, or table top models themselves.

The problem here is that you are effectively saying 'It is fine to go with the sources that say they are something else than 7', but you are wrong' which is rather contradictory.

The Last Detail speaks of Brother Genericus being 'half again the height of a man' (Do the math) and Brothers of the Snake speaks of a 8' tall Marine. Neither were ever mentioned as being of above average size, for an Astartes. And that is just off the top of my head.

If you want to think they are 7'-7'6" tall, go for it. There's plenty of material, that is just as canon, saying otherwise.

The tabletop models are something like 5' or 6'. They hold no weight whatsoever as an argument (Well, they are canon too I guess, but I respectfully reserve the right to consider any notions of 5' or 6' Marines implausible). The 'crunch', by which I assume the game rules, offer no description for warrior size beyond telling us that Marines are too big to be swarms and too small to be Monstrous Creatures.