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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No offense to NGE fans out there, but NGE seemed like a load of bull to me. The themes/premise was good, but the characters and presentations stunk. Seriously, if I had to pick an anime from that same period to watch, I'd pick Escaflowne over NGE any day. Heck, even Victory Gundam was better than NGE, and Tomino was actually DEPRESSED when he make that series.

I find your comment amusing because of your avatar.

I completely agree with you though. NGE didn't have girls with Bazookas in Bikinis in Space though. Its kinda hard to top those levels of grim dark.

I just got finished watching Magi, and I really enjoyed it.

Crap, since I like NGE and is one of my favorites, everyone is going to think I am psuedo-intellect to the highest degree.

Balls.





That being said, I think I might try and marathon AoT and give it a try, and start Kill La Kill.

 Red Comet wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No offense to NGE fans out there, but NGE seemed like a load of bull to me. The themes/premise was good, but the characters and presentations stunk. Seriously, if I had to pick an anime from that same period to watch, I'd pick Escaflowne over NGE any day. Heck, even Victory Gundam was better than NGE, and Tomino was actually DEPRESSED when he make that series.

I find your comment amusing because of your avatar.

Why do you think I prefer her in Gundam rather than in NGE

 Red Comet wrote:
but not Shinji.

Renton, Ao, Dead Man Wonderland kid, Mirrai Nikki kid, etc. That whole type of protagonist is essentially a port of Shinji to varying degrees.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:
but not Shinji.

Renton, Ao, Dead Man Wonderland kid, Mirrai Nikki kid, etc. That whole type of protagonist is essentially a port of Shinji to varying degrees.

Shinji influenced the weak, male protagonist. Heck, I think he is credited as the primogenitor. So if you watch an anime and the male protagonist is running away, acting like a coward, getting defeated, has no self-confidence, whining, and is generally making you face-palm 1/2 the time; thank Shinji Ikari.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:
but not Shinji.

Renton, Ao, Dead Man Wonderland kid, Mirrai Nikki kid, etc. That whole type of protagonist is essentially a port of Shinji to varying degrees.

Shinji influenced the weak, male protagonist. Heck, I think he is credited as the primogenitor. So if you watch an anime and the male protagonist is running away, acting like a coward, getting defeated, has no self-confidence, whining, and is generally making you face-palm 1/2 the time; thank Shinji Ikari.

Nah, Amuro Ray was like that in the beginning of MSG (1979).

The difference between Shinji and many characters like him is that Shinji stayed a whiny little bitch from episode 1 to episode 26. No character growth what so ever which made him boring and annoying. Shinji definitely isn't as well remembered as Rei or Asuka (and lets face it there's a damn good reason) but he has had an effect.

I would not compare Amuro Ray to Shinji. Amuro wasn't weak or a coward. He was naive. His story is one about the loss of a child's innocence when faced with the real world. Amuro isn't powerless or weak in his characterization. He's quite a strong individual who has been placed in a situation he was never prepared for. Shinji's story is one about someone who sees the real world and continues to act like a child, essentially refusing to grow up, clinging to their youth like it can last forever. If anything, Shinji is a counter-point to Amuro's character and anime male protagonists who when faced with deadly odds and dangerous are essentially protected by merely being the main character inspite of their childish antics.

Now many Shinji like characters evolve from being Shinji to be Amuro in this sense (Renton Thurston), but a clear line can be drawn between Shinji himself and the characters like him.

Hence, only the BEGINNING of MSG. I don't know of any other anime protagonists who would compare to Shinji as an emo prick...oh wait. Shinn Asuka...another black mark against Destiny, I guess

 LordofHats wrote:
The difference between Shinji and many characters like him is that Shinji stayed a whiny little bitch from episode 1 to episode 26. No character growth what so ever which made him boring and annoying. Shinji definitely isn't as well remembered as Rei or Asuka (and lets face it there's a damn good reason) but he has had an effect.

I would not compare Amuro Ray to Shinji. Amuro wasn't weak or a coward. He was naive. His story is one about the loss of a child's innocence when faced with the real world. Amuro isn't powerless or weak in his characterization. He's quite a strong individual who has been placed in a situation he was never prepared for. Shinji's story is one about someone who sees the real world and continues to act like a child, essentially refusing to grow up, clinging to their youth like it can last forever. If anything, Shinji is a counter-point to Amuro's character and anime male protagonists who when faced with deadly odds and dangerous are essentially protected by merely being the main character inspite of their childish antics.

Now many Shinji like characters evolve from being Shinji to be Amuro in this sense (Renton Thurston), but a clear line can be drawn between Shinji himself and the characters like him.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Although, I would argue that there was "some" growth in Shinji's character even though it was done painstakingly (from a fans perspective) and excruciatingly slowly. Of course, then you watch end of evangelion and it all goes out the window again so I guess you are right again.

Shinji, imo, doesn't really grow. He really just grows enough of a spine to continue clinging to his childish interests just in time to destroy the world. ]

GJ Shinji. You saved the girl. Too bad you turned the planet into an unliving hell.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
The difference between Shinji and many characters like him is that Shinji stayed a whiny little bitch from episode 1 to episode 26. No character growth what so ever which made him boring and annoying. Shinji definitely isn't as well remembered as Rei or Asuka (and lets face it there's a damn good reason) but he has had an effect.

I would not compare Amuro Ray to Shinji. Amuro wasn't weak or a coward. He was naive. His story is one about the loss of a child's innocence when faced with the real world. Amuro isn't powerless or weak in his characterization. He's quite a strong individual who has been placed in a situation he was never prepared for. Shinji's story is one about someone who sees the real world and continues to act like a child, essentially refusing to grow up, clinging to their youth like it can last forever. If anything, Shinji is a counter-point to Amuro's character and anime male protagonists who when faced with deadly odds and dangerous are essentially protected by merely being the main character inspite of their childish antics.

Now many Shinji like characters evolve from being Shinji to be Amuro in this sense (Renton Thurston), but a clear line can be drawn between Shinji himself and the characters like him.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Although, I would argue that there was "some" growth in Shinji's character even though it was done painstakingly (from a fans perspective) and excruciatingly slowly. Of course, then you watch end of evangelion and it all goes out the window again so I guess you are right again.

As if...damn brat wipes all of Humanity out because his GF dies. I'm sure a professional - like say Emiya Kiritsugu or MoS!Emiya Shiro - would have accomplished the objective of protecting Humanity from the Angels regardless of the personal/collective cost.

 LordofHats wrote:


GJ Shinji. You saved the girl. Too bad you turned the planet into an unliving hell.

Just like HF!Emiya Shiro then - he saves his girlfriend, but ends up letting a large part of Fuyuki's populace get killed and letting loose a clusterfeth in the Clock Tower so much so that it takes the Wizard Marshall himself to calm things down.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Hence, only the BEGINNING of MSG. I don't know of any other anime protagonists who would compare to Shinji as an emo prick...oh wait. Shinn Asuka...another black mark against Destiny, I guess

You keep picking strong characters. Both Amuro and, ughhh, Shinn are characters that have strong traits. Both can stand up for themselves and fight on their own; despite any issues they have. Shinji is a coward, and is fundamentally weak. He pretty much has to be forced to do anything almost all series.

And I did say that when end of evangelion hit, Shinji was just as bad as he was before. So if you take that as the true ending then Shinji was weak and constant throughout.

Emiya Shiro is definitely a Shinji expy (though he leans more towards a stronger character than Shinji himself). Kiritsugu imo is not. Shiro though is in most respects probably the kind of male protagonist Shinji was written to criticize.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Hence, only the BEGINNING of MSG. I don't know of any other anime protagonists who would compare to Shinji as an emo prick...oh wait. Shinn Asuka...another black mark against Destiny, I guess

You keep picking strong characters. Both Amuro and, ughhh, Shinn are characters that have strong traits. Both can stand up for themselves and fight on their own; despite any issues they have. Shinji is a coward, and is fundamentally weak. He pretty much has to be forced to do anything almost all series.

Shinn is definitely not strong. Oh yes, he's skilled in an MS cockpit, but apart from that he's a whiny brat who can't let go and believes the universe revolves around him. That guy needs to be taught a lesson from Bright Noa...

 LordofHats wrote:
Kiritsugu imo is not.

Definitely not; if anything, he'd make a perfect protector of Humanity, because he's willing to do anything to get the job done. Seeing as Seele and NERV love to manipulate people's loved ones against them, Kiritsugu would probably just kill those same loved ones to protect Humanity. The guy is in a way, just as ruthless as the Illusive Man.

 LordofHats wrote:
Shiro though is in most respects probably the kind of male protagonist Shinji was written to criticize.

It depends on the route. Personally, I find Fate!Shiro (idealist) and UBW!Shiro (just another magus) to be quite normal protagonists, while HF!Shiro leaves a lot to be desired. MoS!Shiro is the best, even if he does become a reincarnation of sorts of the infamous Magus Killer.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Ironwill13791 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Hence, only the BEGINNING of MSG. I don't know of any other anime protagonists who would compare to Shinji as an emo prick...oh wait. Shinn Asuka...another black mark against Destiny, I guess

You keep picking strong characters. Both Amuro and, ughhh, Shinn are characters that have strong traits. Both can stand up for themselves and fight on their own; despite any issues they have. Shinji is a coward, and is fundamentally weak. He pretty much has to be forced to do anything almost all series.

Shinn is definitely not strong. Oh yes, he's skilled in an MS cockpit, but apart from that he's a whiny brat who can't let go and believes the universe revolves around him. That guy needs to be taught a lesson from Bright Noa...

At least Shinn never ran away from his problems....consistently ta boot. He definitely needed some "corrections" but he would get cocky and stand up for himself....annoyingly. Shinji never did. But I guess a lot of this has to do with how each of us defines strength.

Shinn does not have the strength to face the world and move on. Shinji does not have the strength to stand up for himself. At least, that's how I see it.

 Sasori wrote:
I just got finished watching Magi, and I really enjoyed it.

Then I have good news for you! The second season of Magi starts this weekend!

 LordofHats wrote:
Shinji, imo, doesn't really grow. He really just grows enough of a spine to continue clinging to his childish interests just in time to destroy the world. ]

GJ Shinji. You saved the girl. Too bad you turned the planet into an unliving hell.

Oh god, why did you have to remind me of the mess that is 3.0....

Also, I would make the point that his character does grow, but as someone said, painstakingly slow. What most people do not get that is he lost his mother at a young age and his dad abandons him because he wants to distance himself from because he believes that he is only going to hurt him more (sound familiar anyone? Like father and son?). In a sense, Gendo can be described as an adult Shinji who always kept running away from his problems and became like that, but Shinji does not become that and does face his problems (well to an extent after he turns the world population into OJ with the help of a Giant Naked Rei and he goes through and has an epiphany in the Sea of LCL. It might not be much, but for what it is worth, it is grow. Personally I think he develops much better in the manga, but enough of that now...). Although, I would like to go on the Record to say Simon was Gainax's way of saying sorry how much of a whiny child Shinji was and the rage that came with it.

Also, this is an alternate view of Evangelion and what Anno thinks of his fans and the otaku culture as a whole which makes more sense now in retrospect in my opinion once you think about it. :/

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Shinji, imo, doesn't really grow. He really just grows enough of a spine to continue clinging to his childish interests just in time to destroy the world. ]

GJ Shinji. You saved the girl. Too bad you turned the planet into an unliving hell.

Oh god, why did you have to remind me of the mess that is 3.0....

Also, I would make the point that his character does grow, but as someone said, painstakingly slow. What most people do not get that is he lost his mother at a young age and his dad abandons him because he wants to distance himself from because he believes that he is only going to hurt him more (sound familiar anyone? Like father and son?). In a sense, Gendo can be described as an adult Shinji who always kept running away from his problems and became like that, but Shinji does not become that and does face his problems (well to an extent after he turns the world population into OJ with the help of a Giant Naked Rei and he goes through and has an epiphany in the Sea of LCL. It might not be much, but for what it is worth, it is grow. Personally I think he develops much better in the manga, but enough of that now...). Although, I would like to go on the Record to say Simon was Gainax's way of saying sorry how much of a whiny child Shinji was and the rage that came with it.

Also, this is an alternate view of Evangelion and what Anno thinks of his fans and the otaku culture as a whole which makes more sense now in retrospect in my opinion once you think about it. :/

So basically...NGE is the meta anime equivalent of the Producers.


We need Gendo singing "Springtime for Hitler," right now.

Knowing Hideki Anno, I'm amazed the "Springtime for Hitler" OVA isn't already out.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Knowing Hideki Anno, I'm amazed the "Springtime for Hitler" OVA isn't already out.

The irony is that it would become a much loved meme.

His rage would then sate my thirst

I wonder if it's possible to create a chaos god that way...

I think NGE was really one of the first non-Saturday morning animes I watched. I didn't/don't get all that deconstruction stuff, it's just something I really liked at the time, but only think it is mediocre thinking back on it. Would Definitely say Gurren Lagann is Much better IMHO. The whole thing about Anno hating his fans is rather humorous though.

 AduroT wrote:
I think NGE was really one of the first non-Saturday morning animes I watched.

Mine was Gundam Wing. It seemed awesome at the time, but after watching UC and AD...not so much.

Would Definitely say Gurren Lagann is Much better IMHO.

Well duh; just who do you think they are?

The whole thing about Anno hating his fans is rather humorous though.

He probably does; IIRC, Rei's character was meant to be a criticism of an anime fan's 'dream girl', and how unnatural such a person would be. Seeing how popular Rei's stereotype is, I'd say it backfired.

Women like Rei creep me out. Like even the closest real world comparisons of quiet, demure shy girls.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Women like Rei creep me out. Like even the closest real world comparisons of quiet, demure shy girls.

Hey, my girlfriend is like that. But she can be stubborn if she has to...

EDIT: Turn A Gundam was good; I should re-watch it when I get the chance.

The thing about shinji is he basically a blank. Something you could make a character out. He is not a character in itself.
Someone mentioned renton from Eureka 7(One of my favorite) He may have starte slightly like shinji but eventually overcame his fear and became competant in what he could do. Same with Eureka, She had some PROBLEMS, but she didnt let them control her like Rei did.

I'm loving all this Mecha Anime deconstruction discussion.

May I just say, I was introduced to Nge through the Movies, and haven't watched any of the shows- I find it was much easier to watch and pay attention to everything when it was presented that way instead- and you don't have to go slogging through entire seasons of anime to witness a micrometer's character growth.

And if you like (or even if you don't like!) NgE, check out Shinji and Warhammer 40K- it's a deconstruction of a deconstruction, a passable Shonen anime story, and has GrimDarkness turned on its head. Because everyone knows, when you multiply a negative by a negative it makes a positive.

Anvildude wrote:
I'm loving all this Mecha Anime deconstruction discussion.

May I just say, I was introduced to Nge through the Movies, and haven't watched any of the shows- I find it was much easier to watch and pay attention to everything when it was presented that way instead- and you don't have to go slogging through entire seasons of anime to witness a micrometer's character growth.

And if you like (or even if you don't like!) NgE, check out Shinji and Warhammer 40K- it's a deconstruction of a deconstruction, a passable Shonen anime story, and has GrimDarkness turned on its head. Because everyone knows, when you multiply a negative by a negative it makes a positive.

I wonder if Anno read that.

There are two outcomes if he has - He will either be very happy, or he will implode out of frustration. I suspect the latter.

If I were to say anything about Anno, it's that he's a self-righteous twit. I appreciate what Eva tried to do, but as evident by the outcome, Eva failed to achieve its thematic goals and if anything people still don't get what its themes were because Anno was too busy hiding those themes behind a veil of random crap so he could point at all the otaku people he didn't like and tell them their stupid for being distracted by all the stuff he put there to distract them.

It's been nearly 20 years since Eva started its run and he's still there talking about all the dumb people who don't get it when its been pointed out numerous times that's his own fault. He's a jerk ass really.