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I noticed that the term abhumans and mutants are not used interchangebly and that abhumans(squads when they existed, ogryns and ratlings and even beastmen) seem to recieve a lot more respect than mutants and are allowed to serve in the Imperial Guard

So what differentiates them?

They are genetically stable, viable and a species in their own right.

My best guess is that they were associated with the Imperium in the RT days, and have maintained that tentative link through 5e. Except the Squads.

One explanation I recall came out of one of the novels. In the BL novel 'Flesh and Iron' there's a passage where an Imperial Guardsman officer either thinks about or discusses mutation (as in chaos Mutation). It is specifically mentioned that chaos Mutation is something entirely differently than natural genetic deviation. This implies that the Imperium still has knowledge of genetics and can tell the difference between a biological mutation and a chaos derived Mutation; and as Ironsight said abhuman mutations are derived from genetically stable genetic variations rather than the direct influence of the Chaos Gods. Beastmen were/are(?) in 40k; I'm not sure exactly where on the 'natural genetics // chaos gifts spectrum' they fall (or if that's even made clear, as the distinction, though somewhat common sense, was made years and years after the 40k universe was initially drafted), or exactly how the Imperium handled them.

Like Ironsight said,

an Abhuman is going to be a stable subspecies of humanity. all characteristics will breed true.

Sample Abhumans are Ogryns, Ratlings, and Squats. who all came into being through adapting to their enviroment. Squats were on High Gravity worlds, Ratlings are the result of massive inbreeding(they procreate uncontrollably), and Ogryns came from harsh barren enviroments.



Mutants will be humans that have random mutations, usually caused by excessive radiation or pollution. mutations may range from minor things like skin defects or strange growths. major things are tentacles, fused bones, and things like that.

Mutants are fairly common in the lower levels of Hive cities. depending on the planet, they may either be left alone or rounded up and killed.

Ironsight wrote:They are genetically stable, viable and a species in their own right.

This.

Other mutations are quite random and often keep mutating further. These, however, are essentially subspecies of humanity (Homo Sapiens Ogryns, for example, as opposed to Homo Sapiens Sapiens). Mind you I'd say that marines are essentially abhumans in the same style, except they're artificially created (Homo Sapiens Astartes).

While all abhumans are, as already stated, subspecies of humanity, and capable of breeding and passing on their specific identifying traits, I don't think all mutants are Chaos created. Some are just the result of exposure to hideous chemical or biological agents that have nothing to do with the Warp. Of course, these resulting freaks are lumped into the same basket as the Chaos tainted ones, making them all the more likely to fall to Chaos (and mutate further) but that's beside the point. I am also sure that whatever agent caused the non-Chaos mutation would then gain the attention of the nasties in the Warp, due to its ability to facilitate further mutation in other targets. But, point being, not all mutations originate from the Warp.

In my opinion, the terms are comparatively interchangable - it's just that "abhuman" is the more benevolent designation, similar to how the Imperium distinguishes between psyker and witches.

Mutants and witches are bad and need to be kept in check. Psykers and Abhumans, on the other hand, may serve a greater purpose. Their service and usefulness to the Imperium has earned them a "reclassification" in society: despite notable differences from the standards of the Sacred Human Form and purity of genes, they are more accepted, which is of course especially true for the mighty Space Marines, scions of the Emperor himself.

Though I understand the (pseudo)scientific distinction, that's pretty much what I was thinking. If it's useful and (even if only barely) tolerable, then it's an abhuman and can serve the Emperor, otherwise, it's a mutant: get the flamer.

Abhumans are humans who have adapted to a different environment, whereas mutants are regular humans with unstable genes.

I see it as Abhumans take time for change to take effect, and mutants go the quick and easy route.

Abhuman: Ogryns evolving on a planet over 2000 years
Mutants: The Joker falling into the bucket of acid and getting green hair and white skin

Abhumans are made via natural selection.

Mutants are more artificial, normally made by radiation, warp exposure or genestealer infection.

It takes generations for natural selection to work of course. Whereas it is possible to turn a normal man into a mutant in a few years.

Lynata wrote:In my opinion, the terms are comparatively interchangable - it's just that "abhuman" is the more benevolent designation, similar to how the Imperium distinguishes between psyker and witches.

Mutants and witches are bad and need to be kept in check. Psykers and Abhumans, on the other hand, may serve a greater purpose. Their service and usefulness to the Imperium has earned them a "reclassification" in society: despite notable differences from the standards of the Sacred Human Form and purity of genes, they are more accepted, which is of course especially true for the mighty Space Marines, scions of the Emperor himself.

Your opinion is not representative of GW opinion through:
A. abhuman as described by GW (as seen in the chapter approved article) are species that evolved from Terran humans over the time between the Dark Age of Technology and the Great Crusade, they are species on their own right (much like the difference between chimpanzees and bonobos).
B. Mutants are humans that are deformed by chaos, radiation or chemical waste
C. Space marines are not abhumans or mutants, as they fit neither definition GW use.

Wel if we are looking at the GW opinion well I should post this then.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abhuman

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mutant

I noted about something called gland warriors in the abhuman page, sound strangely like astartes.

Some are whole sub-species that have adapted to other environments. Mutants are those that are new and irregular mutations.

Of course, the Imperium appear to have disposed of beastman abhumans and they were used in the Imperial Guard.

So some of it has to do with what suits their needs. They'll over look ratlings, ogryns and squats because they are of use. Everything else they purge.

BluntmanDC wrote:Your opinion is not representative of GW opinion through:
A. abhuman as described by GW (as seen in the chapter approved article) are species that evolved from Terran humans over the time between the Dark Age of Technology and the Great Crusade, they are species on their own right (much like the difference between chimpanzees and bonobos).
B. Mutants are humans that are deformed by chaos, radiation or chemical waste

Ah, thanks - I'll try to get my hands on the article, then! It's not that I could not believe this to be true, but it sounds a bit odd, given that (technically) any kind of evolution involves mutation, triggered by whatever makes the environment of the affected specimen different from the norm (radiation, chemical waste, gravity, fauna and flora, even lifestyle!). And when even Beastmen(!) are considered Abhumans but not Mutants, it just sounds much more like a cultural distinction to me rather than a biological one. Which also kind of fits to their apparent termination after the Imperium has "reconsidered" its stance on their status, so the lines do seem to be a bit blurred and open for interpretation by the IoM. An interpretation that may depend both on the individual's stance on the topics of purity as well as the usefulness on the population in question.

BluntmanDC wrote:C. Space marines are not abhumans or mutants, as they fit neither definition GW use.

I've seen them described as "abhumans" in several novels, and although licensed products such as BL books are not canon, I always deemed it fitting to the description in the 2E SoB Codex:
"Also it is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly human at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to a normal human, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a man's skull with one hand and practices crude acts of blood sacrifice?"

Actually no, not lifestyle. That is natural selection. Not mutation.

On the subject of the Space Marines, they're frequently enough described as 'superhuman' or 'posthuman', which in general terms would both be subsets of 'abhuman'. The difference, of course lies in the Marines being appreciably superior in biological terms (hence the superlative modifiers to the adjectives), and in their distinctive characteristics being acquired rather than innate. Hence my inclination to think the abhuman label as much a socially created-distinction than a biological one.

in any case, Warhammer 40,000 is not a 'hard sci-fi' setting. Its universe essentially runs on pseudoscience, magic and deus ex machina; attempting rigorously to apply scientific distinctions is an exercise in futility.

Abhuman: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abhuman

Mutant:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mutant

Happy to help

Howard A Treesong wrote:Some are whole sub-species that have adapted to other environments. Mutants are those that are new and irregular mutations.

Of course, the Imperium appear to have disposed of beastman abhumans and they were used in the Imperial Guard.

So some of it has to do with what suits their needs. They'll over look ratlings, ogryns and squats because they are of use. Everything else they purge.

Well squats Were actually fairly autonymous...

And by the way mentioning squats is heresy, as GW has attempted to purge all evidence of the existence.

They may actually try to reboot the whole dwarves in space thing though, via the tau-aligned demiurg. They already have a few BFG ships under the tau though, so you CAN actually still kill stuff with space dwarves.

zilegil wrote:Actually no, not lifestyle. That is natural selection. Not mutation.

Isn't mutation part of natural selection, though? In the end, the latter only means those who adapt best survive and thrive - this can well happen by genetic mutation making one segment of the population superior to another, such as a given world's culture making people with abnormal muscle growth "more popular" for mating (Catachans). Basically, eugenics. Evolution does happen on a "trial and error" basis, after all. There's no big plan by Mother Nature, just mutation and then seeing what works out. A human population could thus theoretically influence its evolution by making people with a certain genetical trait a priority. A number of countries on our real life world have tried already.

Of course this should take much more than just a couple thousand years, but this is 40k.

An example for this could probably be the Navigator houses who are actively breeding their offspring to maximize the result of what is arguably a genetic mutation - the "psyker gene" and the so-called "third eye".
Another might be voidborn populations who have lived on giant starships for many generations already, being born with pale skin and developing frail bodies not accustomed to living on a planetary surface.

Just my interpretation, mind you. I'm no scientist and have only read the rough basics that just about anyone may know.

Lynata wrote:

zilegil wrote:Actually no, not lifestyle. That is natural selection. Not mutation.

Isn't mutation part of natural selection, though? In the end, the latter only means those who adapt best survive and thrive - this can well happen by genetic mutation making one segment of the population superior to another, such as a given world's culture making people with abnormal muscle growth "more popular" for mating (Catachans). Basically, eugenics. Evolution does happen on a "trial and error" basis, after all. There's no big plan by Mother Nature, just mutation and then seeing what works out. A human population could thus theoretically influence its evolution by making people with a certain genetical trait a priority. A number of countries on our real life world have tried already.

Of course this should take much more than just a couple thousand years, but this is 40k.

An example for this could probably be the Navigator houses who are actively breeding their offspring to maximize the result of what is arguably a genetic mutation - the "psyker gene" and the so-called "third eye".
Another might be voidborn populations who have lived on giant starships for many generations already, being born with pale skin and developing frail bodies not accustomed to living on a planetary surface.

Just my interpretation, mind you. I'm no scientist and have only read the rough basics that just about anyone may know.

@ void born, reminds you of air caste too?

My persona take on this was that abhumans were those mutants deemed useful by the Imperium. I was never really one for believing that the Imperium bothered with scientific classifications, as such, those mutants that were useful were classified as abhuman and the ones that were not useful were pretty much called a mutant and shot on sight.

After all Navigators are about as mutant and psyker as you can get, however their usefulness outweighs the Imperiums utter dislike for mutants. Similarly the Ogryns are really handy imperial meat grinders for their armies and are thus tolerated.

Astartes are considered to be Post Humans

Lynata wrote:

zilegil wrote:Actually no, not lifestyle. That is natural selection. Not mutation.

Isn't mutation part of natural selection, though?

That is best explained by 'all Innuits are Eskimo, but not all Eskimo are Innuit'

Lifestyle and mutation play massive parts in natural selection, but lifestlye does not in general cause mutation

Ironsight wrote:They are genetically stable, viable and a species in their own right.

Word! Slight deference in the 2 both similar!

BluntmanDC wrote:

Lynata wrote:

zilegil wrote:Actually no, not lifestyle. That is natural selection. Not mutation.

Isn't mutation part of natural selection, though?

That is best explained by 'all Innuits are Eskimo, but not all Eskimo are Innuit'

Lifestyle and mutation play massive parts in natural selection, but lifestlye does not in general cause mutation

+1.

I think you just nailed it on the head.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And by the way mentioning squats is heresy, as GW has attempted to purge all evidence of the existence.
They may actually try to reboot the whole dwarves in space thing though, via the tau-aligned demiurg. They already have a few BFG ships under the tau though, so you CAN actually still kill stuff with space dwarves.

GW has attempted to purge all evidence of the Squats but there are still a few Squat survivors such as Sholto Unwerth from Ravenor series.
Maybe Demiurg are the Squat survivors who joined Tau Empire after the destruction of their homeworlds by Tyranid Hive-Fleet. Otherwise it'll be very hard to explain the presence of another human-type but non-related with humans race besides the Eldar. And Demiurg is the better name for race than the Squats.

They're not human-type nor related to humans.

They're also not Squats. They are their own race, and some of the descriptions say that they have a series of ridges on their forehead looking vaguely like Worf from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Yes.
These is the only concept art for Demiurg and these ridges are clearly noticeable.
But despite the existence of Demiurg, the Squats still exist, but not in army quantity.

Just stumbled over something in the old 2E Guard 'dex - thought it might be interesting to some:

"The incorporation of abhuman regiments into the Imperial Guard is a controversial matter. Abhumans are human descended creatures such as Ratlings, Squats and Ogryns, whose physical appearance and mental capabilities are quite different from those of their human ancestors. They represent the descendants of the first wave of human exploration into the galaxy. Over tens of thousands of years of isolation, they have evolved into creatures capable of living in high-gravity worlds, in deep space, and in all kinds of polluted or dangerous environments.

Today it is generally accepted that abhumans are part of the human race and not aliens. Many thousands of years ago, the Inquisition led wars of destruction against human-descended creatures which its masters deemed unworthy of full human status. When human settled worlds were discovered, the Inquisition would conduct a lengthy process of DNA analysis to determine if the population was still fully human by the Inquisition's stringent standards. As a result, the populations of many planets were eradicated and their worlds resettled.

In time, the Imperium developed a much broader definition of humanity. Ogryns, Ratlings and Squats came to be regarded as fully human. Other individual abhuman mutations were treated with comparative toleration. However, even today the Inquisition is distrustful of these newly evolved races and of those in the Adeptus Terra who advocate the integration of newly discovered abhuman races into the Imperium of Man."

Farseer Petriel wrote:But despite the existence of Demiurg, the Squats still exist, but not in army quantity.

That's a controversial topic. Given that GW has gone as far as to edit existing books to change Squat characters into another race, one could say that they do not longer exist, as far as studio material is concerned. Novels such as the Ravenor series are, as always, an individual author's interpretation, and as such may conflict with how GW thinks the setting should look like.
Not that I find this harsh course of action necessary, mind you. GW could as well have simply removed them as a playable army but still kept them around as a race. It's not like people could play species like Loxatl either... I still think Squats were cool in an orky way, so I can see why some authors feel compelled to disregard their disappearance. My DH group does as well, actually.