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 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
Well in the end...we all have our favorite Regiments (and I ain't hiding who my favorite is!). But then, really it's Battlefield Conditions who will rule the day. What's next? Vallhallans vs. Tallarn? But where? Ice World or the Desert? Elysians vs. Cadians? All boots on the ground or dropping in units from the sky? Steel Legion vs. Death Korps (actually that I would like to see!).... fighting on a Hive World City or in the Trenches? Its amusing...and about as "accurate" as Deadliest Warrior....lol. Each Regiment is known for something they excel in, so its ultimately up to a good Imperial Commander to make use of what Regiments are thrown his way.

Stop trying to rationalize this, reasonably!

Even still, Krieg can still burn the forest to the ground and then dig trenches. You can't necessarily drive them from the trenches unless....




OMG, we've found the rock paper scissors of the IG!

Krieg beats Catachan, Steel Legion beats Krieg, Cadia beats Steel Legion, Vostroya beats Cadia, Tallaran beats Vostroya, Rough Riders beats Tallaran, Harkonian beats rough riders, Elysia beats Harkonian, Mordian beats Elysia, Valhalla beats Mordian, Catachans beat Valhalla.

IT'S PERFECT.

 ENOZONE wrote:
Even still, Krieg can still burn the forest to the ground and then dig trenches.
Krieg beats Catachan, Steel Legion beats Krieg, Cadia beats Steel Legion, Vostroya beats Cadia, Tallaran beats Vostroya, Rough Riders beats Tallaran, Harkonian beats rough riders, Elysia beats Harkonian, Mordian beats Elysia, Valhalla beats Mordian, Catachans beat Valhalla.

IT'S PERFECT.

And when no one is looking, the Chem Dogs steal everything from everybody!

Kreig minis beat out Catachan minis hands down.

Fluff is fluff, eveyone is a tiger in their own back yard.

Kreig wins wars by digging in and wearing down the enemy.

Catachan wins by surgical strikes, ambushes and timed hit and fades.

Different tools for different jobs...which is tougher or better fighters...whichever wins.

Personally though I would sooner get in a fist fight with a kreiger than a Catachaner.

The chem dogs would beat Cadia and then lose against Vostroya, thank you for reminding me.

Unexploded ordinance? Catachans get that from one of their Native Frogs. But it just has to be startled, not stood on. The greater barking toad if I'm not mistaken.

Catachan is a world where it takes skill to survive, not equipment, it moulds survivalists.

Krieg is certainly dangerous, but as said, probably no more so than other chemical atmosphered worlds.

 Eetion wrote:
Unexploded ordinance? Catachans get that from one of their Native Frogs. But it just has to be startled, not stood on. The greater barking toad if I'm not mistaken.

Catachan is a world where it takes skill to survive, not equipment, it moulds survivalists.

Krieg is certainly dangerous, but as said, probably no more so than other chemical atmosphered worlds.

Gotta agree with you sir there.

Been deployed in Afghanistan and there are millions of old russian mines and ord scattered all over...and the locals grow up there..so... minus the nasty enviroment that requires a suit..it makes them 1/2 as tough as a krieger before military training.

all the fluff on Catachan makes it a green hell, where everything is ACTIVELY trying to kill you, and no hazmat suit or carful tiptoeing will save you from a catachan devil thats looking for a snack.


or a thermo nuclear toad..
(1km kill radius with poison that penetrates through powerarmor...dear god! )

Nasty world the Catachaners win IMHO.

Because Krieg isn't a hostile environment, right?

 Eiríkr wrote:
Because Krieg isn't a hostile environment, right?

Of course it is. Were not claiming it isn't.
But catachan while not having as poisonous environment, moulds men into vigilant, resourceful, stronger, more aware.

Krieg has part of its training on the surface, so presumably the cities are covered, they will have civilians, manufactorums geared to war certainly. But regardless men and women in a civilian role who will never set foot on the surface.

All catachans, civilian or otherwise, are first and foremost Catachans, at risk of the same bugs, snakes, diseases predators etc All catachans live on the surface all their lives, contend with and identify predators and risks on a daily basis. Every day life is a hazard, not just those korpsmen who spend the last period of training on the surface. From the moment a catachan is born the aquire the skills to make them exceptional fighters. Its not training to them, simply living.

 Eetion wrote:
Which is exactly the same as 'living' on catachan. They are born to it. Not trained.

Certainly not true. Yes, Catachan has a high casualty rate, but learning to hide from mutated monsters and not step into man-eating plants doesn't exactly correlate to being able to engage in pitched battles.

It does teach you the skills of camoflarge and concealment, escape and evasion, trapping, wood/forest/jungle skills, rifelry (catachans are another of those regiments where its said they learn to shoot before they walk), hunting, trapping, self sufficiency, operating without supply lines, and general guidelines for hostile predators. As well as generally improving muscle mass and physical capabilities.

All valuable skills for a soldier and fighter who's purpose isn't to run out of a trench in a battle of attrition. The point of catachan is that they try not participate in pitched battles, and a smart plan it is too.

Krieg know not to take their protective clothing on/off, how to dig trenches, and how to die. And they indoctrinate that in training.
Krieg is certainly dangerous, but given appropriate equipment its not going to kill. Catachan will kill you whatever you wear.

Appropriate equipment on Catachan does not equate to survival either.

I have a feeling that you're just pumped up for muscular men in ripped clothing.

Very nicely argued sir.
Not at all personal attack is it.

Argue a case through reasoning please.
I state again, equipment on krieg is used for survival, catachan has equipment but no amount of equipment will protect you from a predator... Or a toad.

Right. Because some light-jibbing on the internet equates to a personal attack on sexuality.

I find that you're completely missing the point of the Imperial Guard regiments. As varied and widespread as they are, it is simply impossible to determine which one is the better. You wouldn't use a hammer to saw off a piece of wood, or a screwdriver to weld together two pieces of sheet metal. Let's get that clear, it's what you're arguing for.

I state again, equipment on krieg is used for survival, catachan has equipment but no amount of equipment will protect you from a predator... Or a toad.

I state again, equipment on Catachan is no different to equipment on Krieg. Both do the job for the situation at hand. The Kriegs would suffer in the jungle, no question about it. Unfortunately for you, Catachans would suffer heavily outside of the jungle. I'll paraphrase for you; no amount of equipment will protect you from a predator... Or a toad, nor will any amount of equipment protect you from a thermal-nuclear detonation or the shelling of innumerable artillery pieces. Take that Catachan and put him in the wasteland of Krieg or any other world where death is present in any way, shape or form - the ripped shirts will only go so far. Unfortunately, this seems to have drifted past me. I was only aware that Catachans could take on everything with a cigar and a bandana.

All valuable skills for a soldier and fighter who's purpose isn't to run out of a trench in a battle of attrition. The point of catachan is that they try not participate in pitched battles, and a smart plan it is too.

The point of Krieg is that they try not to participate in jungle battles, and a smart plan it is too. Both the Krieg and the Catachans were present during the Third War for Armageddon. As were the Mordian Iron Guard, the Elysians, the Cadians and the Savlar Chem Dogs. But hey, I guess the Catachans did the brunt of the fighting for the Imperium given their awesome cool fightin' skillz.

It swings both ways dude. I'm not stubborn [or stupid enough] to argue the case for Krieg fighting on Catachan and Catachans fighting on Krieg. Both are death worlds, both with a different set of circumstances and thus a highly individualised style of warfare that is unique to each. Take each off of their own home planet where familiarity is the norm and put them on a seperate world altogether. I'll quote you here:

Krieg is certainly dangerous, but given appropriate equipment its not going to kill. Catachan will kill you whatever you wear.

Catachan will kill you whatever you wear. Krieg will kill you whatever you wear. A Catachan is just as likely to die on the planet's surface as a Kriegsman is. The planet surface is strewn with rad-wasted debris, unexploded ammunition of every calibre and power. Why do you think the Krieg weed out the weakest of their strongest on the surface before shipping out? Because it's a death-world, as is Catachan.

Unfortunately, I don't think much of this will sink in. Catachan is Catachan is Catachan is supreme. Both are adept in their fields, both adapt to any new field with supreme flexibility. It's why they're the best of the best.

/out

Iv not claimed kried has no place. And iv certainly not claimed catachan do the brunt.
Over the course of this discussion I have several times commended the Krieg troopers on their resolute, disciplined nature.
But that does not make them good fighters, it makes them good soldiers for the roll they fill. But only in that roll. Any force that expends a casualty rate as krieg spends more time shelling from within a trench than advancing. As iv said mutiple times, they have their place in the 40k world even as trench war becomes obsolete in ours.
Stick a korpsmen in a jungle, woodland, forest and they will struggle. Reverse is true compared to a catachan in a siege, or a poisonous environment.
Iv not missed the point regarding environment and square peg round hole use of troops.
But the skills of catachan, hunting, moving though cover, camoflarge and concealment are more valuable than nbc training and trench craft.
Krieg do excel in those conditions, but if called upon to fight in that environment, catachans can don a suit and dig a trench as well, maybe not as skillfully or quickly, but in trench war, skilled combatants are less useful, a whiteshield can dig a trench and win by attrition if needed.
In reversal, krieg would struggle more in any heavily wooded or mobile war where trenches arnt an option.

And it was clearly a personal attack. It was virtually the only point you made.

Kriegsmen are excellent combattant in melee as well (for all its worth, they ARE WS 4 on the TT)

Everyone can dig a trench, but can they hold it as well as the Kriegsmen? Come up with way to force the enemy to go where they want by digging appropriate trenches, build proper heavy weapons emplacements that will allow maxium coverage? Properly built munition stash? Make the best of what they have as far as weapons go in the trenches to maximize the efficiency of said weapons?

 Eetion wrote:
Stick a korpsmen in a jungle, woodland, forest and they will struggle.

Why will they?

You see the big problem here is you keep insulting humanity and the one thing that our species is absolutely spectacularly brilliant at: adapting. You keep stating this idea that as soon as the Death Korp are out of their trenches they won't have clue what to do and will just mill about getting destroyed. Considering that the Death Korp are based upon troops from the Great War, it is worth noting that there was a lot of fighting in that conflict that did not include trench warfare. To imagine that the Death Korp spend their lives learning just how to dig trenches and advance from trench to trench is absolutely ludicrous because then you have 1-trick pony troops who are useless except in one, unique situation. The Death Korp is trained to fight in a multitude of different ways - why else do they have squadrons of Death Riders within regiments, mobile troops mounted on bionically altered steeds? What use would they be in a trench? Why do the Grenadiers use Centaur vehicles to traverse the battlefield? If you're going straight from trench to trench you're better off lumping everyone into a super-heavy Gorgon and not bother with the lighter vehicles. The Siege Regiments are geared and trained specifically towards trench & siege warfare, yes, but the Infantry Regiments, who are different, are able to fight competently regardless of the terrain they find themselves in - they're just as competent as any Guard regiment in general infantry tactics but with their own little twist - a particular preference for closing with the enemy and using their bayonets.

THe big difference between the two is this: Catachans will run away when their morale breaks. The Death Korp don't understand why you wouldn't want to die for the God-Emperor and thus never retreat unless ordered to.

My bet is on DKOK.
Not to say that the Catchans wouldn't give the DKOK one hell of a hard time.
The sheer amount of manpower that the DKOK bring the table whenever they deploy is massive.
Once an effective Krieg trench line is put up, its going to be extremely difficult for the the Catchans to break it, but if they Catachans are able to harass and surgically strike against the DKOK while they are deploying it will most likely result in a Catachan victory. If that trench line is put up though its pretty much over for the Catachans. Whether they try to insert via Valkyries, the most likely will get shot down by Hydra Flak Tanks guarding the entire perimeter, or try to sneak in, which I'm sure the DKOK are used to repelling.

While the Catchans on an individual level would be a more hardy and resourceful trooper, there is not much to do when your entire sector is being barraged by dozens of Earthshaker cannons, but if the fight comes down to a one on one close combat fight the Catachan will most likely emerge victorious.

It is true that trench warfare does not require extremely skilled individuals to prepare the trenches, but you will always prefer a veteran of that theatre to hold and assault those trench lines. A great example from who the DKOK are based off was when the Germans in WW1 built their trenches they built raised up wooden platforms in their trenches so the water could run underneath the wood instead of in the soldiers boots. This simple difference when compared to the British and French sloppily built trenches, they had a much higher rate of trench foot then the Germans.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Stick a korpsmen in a jungle, woodland, forest and they will struggle.

Why will they?

You see the big problem here is you keep insulting humanity and the one thing that our species is absolutely spectacularly brilliant at: adapting. You keep stating this idea that as soon as the Death Korp are out of their trenches they won't have clue what to do and will just mill about getting destroyed. Considering that the Death Korp are based upon troops from the Great War, it is worth noting that there was a lot of fighting in that conflict that did not include trench warfare. To imagine that the Death Korp spend their lives learning just how to dig trenches and advance from trench to trench is absolutely ludicrous because then you have 1-trick pony troops who are useless except in one, unique situation. The Death Korp is trained to fight in a multitude of different ways - why else do they have squadrons of Death Riders within regiments, mobile troops mounted on bionically altered steeds? What use would they be in a trench? Why do the Grenadiers use Centaur vehicles to traverse the battlefield? If you're going straight from trench to trench you're better off lumping everyone into a super-heavy Gorgon and not bother with the lighter vehicles. The Siege Regiments are geared and trained specifically towards trench & siege warfare, yes, but the Infantry Regiments, who are different, are able to fight competently regardless of the terrain they find themselves in - they're just as competent as any Guard regiment in general infantry tactics but with their own little twist - a particular preference for closing with the enemy and using their bayonets.

THe big difference between the two is this: Catachans will run away when their morale breaks. The Death Korp don't understand why you wouldn't want to die for the God-Emperor and thus never retreat unless ordered to.

Well I understand the Death riders are recon and sentinels within a siege regiment and capitalise on a break through.
The siege regiments are what krieg are famous for. Sure they have infantry, just as tallarn have artillery and catachan have armoured. But their doctrine is still one of attrition is it not, infantry, siege, or artillery etc

Korpsemen would struggle for exactly the same reason that other regiments would struggle, why steel legion struggle intunnel fighting, catachans struggle in siegesn you take a man out of his comfort zone and he's no better than anyone else, that and it must be harsh living in permanent nbc gear.
His indoctrination and disregard for his own life has a place. But it can result in excessive loss for futile gains.

You say a catachans morale can break, maybe, but in a hopeless cause, catachans will still be capable of continuing the fight another day. There are differences between tactical withdrawals and fleeing. A catachan isn't a korpsmen, and will do their duty, but won't squander their lives fruitlessly either.

What I believe is that the skills learned from birth on catachan, are more wide ranging than the korpsmens skills useable in a wider variety of environments.

Kriegsmen can do tactical withdrawing, as long as they're ordered to do so.

So you're willing to forget about everything else the Korp have to offer in place of Catachans maintaining top-spot? Good show.

Korpsemen would struggle for exactly the same reason that other regiments would struggle, why steel legion struggle intunnel fighting, catachans struggle in siegesn you take a man out of his comfort zone and he's no better than anyone else, that and it must be harsh living in permanent nbc gear.
His indoctrination and disregard for his own life has a place. But it can result in excessive loss for futile gains.

As I said. Take any of the legions out of their preferred style of fighting and discomfort will ensue, however adaptation would swiftly follow. The Krieg are almost literally birthed, raised and regimented in their uniforms. No loss of life is too great in the light of the Emperor, no life is wasted for the Emperor's followers. "Futile gains" is something we on the outside, as observers, can state with ease. There is no such thing in the 41st Millennium. Every gain, no matter how trivial, is a victory for the Emperor. It's easy to distinguish and cast a negative light on a regiment if you take a different angle. It's just as easy, thankfully, to shift it into a positive frame.

You say a catachans morale can break, maybe, but in a hopeless cause, catachans will still be capable of continuing the fight another day. There are differences between tactical withdrawals and fleeing. A catachan isn't a korpsmen, and will do their duty, but won't squander their lives fruitlessly either.

If it's a hopeless cause, why would they be fighting to another day? A hopeless cause would suggest annihilation in the maws of death; the Krieg will walk stiffly into annihilation for the glory of the Emperor. The Korps will also withdraw if ordered to by a superior. You cannot and should not view this as 'fruitlessly' wasting a life because it isn't - not within the universe we play toy soldiers with.

What I believe is that the skills learned from birth on catachan, are more wide ranging than the korpsmens skills useable in a wider variety of environments.

And what we are saying is that the Krieg learn a different set of skills, in some regards overlapping, yet still they come to the same conclusion. Supreme firepower, unwavering morale and endless devotion to the God-Emperor are hallmarks of the Korpsman - the means to the end may be different but the end result is the same in both instances.
If what you are saying is true; why aren't Catachan's most famous sons deployed to a wider variety of sectors other than the typical jungle tundra?

This is what happens when you compare units that fight for the same side, but with different specialties..no one is the bestest at everything (cept SM of course ).

Dead soldiers have never won a battle for anyone..dying for a cause is all good and wonderful, but I prefer making the enemy die for their cause instead, a resolute acceptenace of death is all great and very grimdark and very fitting for the setting of 40k and I think the kreigers look really cool, and love their fluff.
But I have never liked the notion of commanders considering their men as ammo to be expended and a a fatalistic almost suicidal mentality, I cannot really get behind, you usually have to survive to acheive objectives.
the very fact that commisars have to be placed within Kreig regiments to curtail their potential self destructive tendencies to never waver or sometimes lose sight of the Big picture..is pretty crazy.

I just feel a radioactive wasteland with unexploded ord, is not as nasty of a world as one with a living ecosystem trying its best to kill you and eat your eyes like ju-ju beans.

both are deathworlds..I just feel Catachan is a death-ier world.

and for the record Catachan regiments have seen service as far back as the Macharian crusade, so I am sure they do a bit more than jungle only ops..unless there are alot of jungle world to fight over.

Maybe compare Kreigers against sombody else that does seige/counter seige warfare on the other side..like the Iron warriors or somesuch.

and Kroot vs.Catachaners would be a nice knock up.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Kreig minis beat out Catachan minis hands down.

Fluff is fluff, eveyone is a tiger in their own back yard.

Kreig wins wars by digging in and wearing down the enemy.

Catachan wins by surgical strikes, ambushes and timed hit and fades.

Different tools for different jobs...which is tougher or better fighters...whichever wins.

^ pretty much this. ^

In a straight-up, open fight, I can't really decide- ranged I'd say the Death Korps would have the upper hand (artillery etc.), though in a straight-up melee the catachans would crush the Death Korps.

Death korps because they have no fear they fight
Merilisly they have stranth in will they are more machine then man.

I think the problem with Catachan is that they depend heavily on terrain (such as the time when Straken strangled the Chaos Lord - he was hiding in a mud-pit or somesuch if I am not mistaken).

This means that armies like Krieg, who specialize in military engineering, will utterly demolish them. Military and siege engineers are supposed to take the terrain available and convert it into the most formidable defensive position or offensive springboard that they can.

This includes obliterating entire forests (or jungles), re-engineering hills, blasting houses and building pillboxes.

All of this takes time, but when you pit a terrain-dependent foe against a force designed to alter the terrain to suit its needs, then you have a problem.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think the problem with Catachan is that they depend heavily on terrain (such as the time when Straken strangled the Chaos Lord - he was hiding in a mud-pit or somesuch if I am not mistaken).

This means that armies like Krieg, who specialize in military engineering, will utterly demolish them. Military and siege engineers are supposed to take the terrain available and convert it into the most formidable defensive position or offensive springboard that they can.

This includes obliterating entire forests (or jungles), re-engineering hills, blasting houses and building pillboxes.

All of this takes time, but when you pit a terrain-dependent foe against a force designed to alter the terrain to suit its needs, then you have a problem.

The Catachan are masters of stealth, ambush and traps. These skills transfer to any environment. All the Catachan need to do is find a preferable area, set the trap and wait, it need not necessarily be a jungle. A well baited trap will urge the Kreig (as they are so willing to die for even meagre gains) into a trench-rush right into the heart of an explosive trap or a concealed ambush. Guerrilla/Swarm tactics will mop up the survivors.

They're will to put their life on the line, not stupid.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They're will to put their life on the line, not stupid.

That doesn't mean they won't fall for a trap

Not all the times, especially since they tend to send in the Grenadiers first, which are the veterans, who are pretty much stormtroopers.

I think this discussion has far deviated from the original post.

The question is, who is the better fighter - Catachans or Krieg?
Both are fantastic fighters - the Krieg are renowned fighters and the Catachans are renowned fighters. Both are freakin' awesome.
The poster wanted to know opinions on who was the better FIGHTER.
Both would die on the other's planet - both have seen invented scenarios where one wins and the other dies. It's not regiment v. regiment - its fighter vs. fighter.

The other question was which planet is more deadly. Both are deadly for different reasons. The question was which is DEADLIER.

Answer the question yo.