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If a multi-combat involves a C'tan Shard with Times Arrow and a squad of Wraiths using whip coils, would targets of Times Arrow be using the initiative of 1?

Yes, because their Init value is 1, and Times Arrow does not specify unmodified I Value.

But initiative tests do specify an unmodified value correct?

iMO, it should work but I want to cover my bases if I try it out.

The rules for Char tests in general do not specify unmodified. Sweeping advance does, which is why most people think I tests are always unmodified

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for Char tests in general do not specify unmodified. Sweeping advance does, which is why most people think I tests are always unmodified

Set values fall under modifiers in the rule book. That is my point of contention on this.

And characteristic test state to use the characteristic in the profile of the model.

 Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for Char tests in general do not specify unmodified. Sweeping advance does, which is why most people think I tests are always unmodified

Set values fall under modifiers in the rule book. That is my point of contention on this.

And characteristic test state to use the characteristic in the profile of the model.

Yes, whch just tells you where to find the value. Not that this value can never be modified.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for Char tests in general do not specify unmodified. Sweeping advance does, which is why most people think I tests are always unmodified

Set values fall under modifiers in the rule book. That is my point of contention on this.

And characteristic test state to use the characteristic in the profile of the model.

Yes, whch just tells you where to find the value. Not that this value can never be modified.

It does kind of imply that though, as if you are useing the modified I value, you are not useing the I value on your statline, your useing a completely diferent one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for Char tests in general do not specify unmodified. Sweeping advance does, which is why most people think I tests are always unmodified

Set values fall under modifiers in the rule book. That is my point of contention on this.

And characteristic test state to use the characteristic in the profile of the model.

Yes, whch just tells you where to find the value. Not that this value can never be modified.

So then a model that is normally I3 gets some random boost as a non set value modifier to I10 and they can test against that?

So MoS marines never get to benefit from their I4/5? Chaos marines tat have been blessed by Fabius with +1S dont get to use this for their S tests near a portal of exile?

You are using the profile, then the multiple modifiers kicks in and the set to 1 is applied last.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So MoS marines never get to benefit from their I4/5? Chaos marines tat have been blessed by Fabius with +1S dont get to use this for their S tests near a portal of exile?

You are using the profile, then the multiple modifiers kicks in and the set to 1 is applied last.

In those cases you abide by the additional rules stating that if a model has multiple values for the same characteristic you always use the higher one.

So, again - why are you not apply the multiple modifer set value last, after reading your profile value?

You have no rule stating you do NOT apply the set modifier, so why arent you?

Edit: oh, and you dont have multiple values - you have a modifer of +1I / S, so you have 4+1 I / S. Again, you are stating you use the value, not the enumerated value taking modifiers into account, and doing so with no posted rules support

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, again - why are you not apply the multiple modifer set value last, after reading your profile value?

You have no rule stating you do NOT apply the set modifier, so why arent you?

Edit: oh, and you dont have multiple values - you have a modifer of +1I / S, so you have 4+1 I / S. Again, you are stating you use the value, not the enumerated value taking modifiers into account, and doing so with no posted rules support

Here's the reason, where does it say you apply modifiers to characteristic tests? If the whip coils are a set value that are not also a modifier then they will affect sweeping advance rolls. If they do NOT affect sweeping advance rolls then the whip coils *are* a modifier and do not get applied to characteristic tests, since they go specifically by the profile.

You, of ALL people nos, should know that you don't need a rule telling you what not to do.

Also, in your original post you presented the information as if it was a multiple value characteristic. If the mark of slaanesh marines are statlined I4 but have a "permanent" upgrade from the start of compiling your army then they are I5 as an upgrade, thus a multiple characteristic model where the higher value will always take precedence. But as I said before, if you claim it is a modifier then it still won't matter because the characteristic test rules state you use the highest value, which in this case would be the unmodified initiative value. If it's a set value that is "not" a modifier then it applies to things like sweeping advance and jaws.

I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

It wouldn't be in Time's Arrow, it just calls for a characteristic test. The rules in question are characteristic tests. No, it doesn't say "unmodified" in that section, but it does say you roll against the models characteristic in their profile. Just, go check out page 7.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

It wouldn't be in Time's Arrow, it just calls for a characteristic test. The rules in question are characteristic tests. No, it doesn't say "unmodified" in that section, but it does say you roll against the models characteristic in their profile. Just, go check out page 7.

And while in base contact with Whip Coils the characteristic on your profile is Initiative 1, regardless of your actual Initiative value.

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

Are Smash, and Vector Strike talking about characteristic tests though? I thought that was a different subject.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

It wouldn't be in Time's Arrow, it just calls for a characteristic test. The rules in question are characteristic tests. No, it doesn't say "unmodified" in that section, but it does say you roll against the models characteristic in their profile. Just, go check out page 7.

And while in base contact with Whip Coils the characteristic on your profile is Initiative 1, regardless of your actual Initiative value.

So it's not a modifier then and will affect sweeping advance rolls and jaws and other such things?

 Kevin949 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

It wouldn't be in Time's Arrow, it just calls for a characteristic test. The rules in question are characteristic tests. No, it doesn't say "unmodified" in that section, but it does say you roll against the models characteristic in their profile. Just, go check out page 7.

And while in base contact with Whip Coils the characteristic on your profile is Initiative 1, regardless of your actual Initiative value.

So it's not a modifier then and will affect sweeping advance rolls and jaws and other such things?

I would actually agree with that except it would also have to effect every model in the squad to work. In the case of Sweeping Advance, or any other characteristic test effecting the unit, you use the best statistic available to the unit. So if even if all but one guy has his initiative reduced by Whip coils it will still test off the faster initiative available so even if that was the rule, it would hardly ever matter. Time's Arrow cares not about the Initiative characteristic available to the unit, as it tests off the model's characteristic.

Well it wouldn't affect jaws, actually.

Yes, i'm assuming an unlikely scenario of the only models left are in base to base.

If Arjac hammer makes the model I1, it tests at I1 for Jaws. I believe characteristic test, unless otherwise stated, uses the current characteristic values.

leohart wrote:
If Arjac hammer makes the model I1, it tests at I1 for Jaws. I believe characteristic test, unless otherwise stated, uses the current characteristic values.

Is there something somewhere to back this up? (I'm asking because I'm unfamiliar with these things other than jaws).

Most weapons use the term "swing at" when describing the initiative reduction.

From the rulebook for Unwieldy:

A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

This means that though they strike at initiative 1, they model itself is not that slow for basically all other purposes. Abilities like Whip Coils reduce the model's characteristic in everyway, not just causing them to be slower when swinging a weapon.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Most weapons use the term "swing at" when describing the initiative reduction.

From the rulebook for Unwieldy:

A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

This means that though they strike at initiative 1, they model itself is not that slow for basically all other purposes. Abilities like Whip Coils reduce the model's characteristic in everyway, not just causing them to be slower when swinging a weapon.

Really it's not the weapon modifying the stat, it's the step at which the weapon is allowed to be swung. The same as what you said, yes, just another of looking at it.

Except the new FAQ says models with unwieldy pile in and swing at I1. They do make all other tests with normal initate though as the modifier for unwieldy only effects your Initatiive for those two things.

Wouldn't it fall under the multiple profile clause of characteristic tests?

I'm a marine. I'm I4. I'm touching whips, I'm I1. I've got a mark of slaanesh, I'm I5.
I'm taking an init test, I have multiple initiatives, I use the highest, and roll against my 5, even though I'm currently I1.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Wouldn't it fall under the multiple profile clause of characteristic tests?

I'm a marine. I'm I4. I'm touching whips, I'm I1. I've got a mark of slaanesh, I'm I5.
I'm taking an init test, I have multiple initiatives, I use the highest, and roll against my 5, even though I'm currently I1.

-Matt

No the Necron FAQ clearly tells us what to do for 6th:

Q: If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a model with an
Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar Banshee Mask
etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified? (p44)
A: As a ‘set value modifier’ the Whip Coils effect is applied
after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set
value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start
of each Fight sub-phase.

What you are referring to is a modifing of a statistic I4 +1= I5. Thats great and is still in effect, except Whip Coils are then applied last, making your I5 reduce to 1.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I goes against the modified profile unless it states un modifed. Things like Smash and Vector strike specificly state unmodified characteristic. I do not see that language with the arrow.

It wouldn't be in Time's Arrow, it just calls for a characteristic test. The rules in question are characteristic tests. No, it doesn't say "unmodified" in that section, but it does say you roll against the models characteristic in their profile. Just, go check out page 7.

So you have no rule saying you ignore modifiers then?

I have a rule saying I modify your characteristic value, such as the whip coil / lash whip set value, and you do not have a rule allowing you to ignore it, meaning you must use the modified value

Additive and multiplicative modifiers are applied before set value, so i4 -> 4+1 -> i1 is what would happen with MoS marines. Being a "permanent" modifier or not is irrelevant, as per the brb you simply apply in the prescribed order.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Wouldn't it fall under the multiple profile clause of characteristic tests?

I'm a marine. I'm I4. I'm touching whips, I'm I1. I've got a mark of slaanesh, I'm I5.
I'm taking an init test, I have multiple initiatives, I use the highest, and roll against my 5, even though I'm currently I1.

-Matt

No the Necron FAQ clearly tells us what to do for 6th:

Q: If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a model with an
Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar Banshee Mask
etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified? (p44)
A: As a ‘set value modifier’ the Whip Coils effect is applied
after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set
value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start
of each Fight sub-phase.

What you are referring to is a modifing of a statistic I4 +1= I5. Thats great and is still in effect, except Whip Coils are then applied last, making your I5 reduce to 1.

No, I get that. While in base contact, he is on initiative 1. But read page 7. They have a paragraph specifically about characteristic tests.
I5 being reduced to 1 is having 2 profiles. One I use when in base to base with the whip coils, another I use the rest of the game.
If I'm specifically called on to make a characteristic test, page 7 says use the best.

-Matt

You only use the highest if the whole unit is taking the test, and there are different values within the unit. Otherwise you use the modified characteristic, since nothing says otherwise.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Wouldn't it fall under the multiple profile clause of characteristic tests?

I'm a marine. I'm I4. I'm touching whips, I'm I1. I've got a mark of slaanesh, I'm I5.
I'm taking an init test, I have multiple initiatives, I use the highest, and roll against my 5, even though I'm currently I1.

-Matt

No the Necron FAQ clearly tells us what to do for 6th:

Q: If a model with whip coils is in base contact with a model with an
Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. an Eldar Banshee Mask
etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified? (p44)
A: As a ‘set value modifier’ the Whip Coils effect is applied
after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set
value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start
of each Fight sub-phase.

What you are referring to is a modifing of a statistic I4 +1= I5. Thats great and is still in effect, except Whip Coils are then applied last, making your I5 reduce to 1.

No, I get that. While in base contact, he is on initiative 1. But read page 7. They have a paragraph specifically about characteristic tests.
I5 being reduced to 1 is having 2 profiles. One I use when in base to base with the whip coils, another I use the rest of the game.
If I'm specifically called on to make a characteristic test, page 7 says use the best.

-Matt

No you don't have two characteristics. You have one. Your I5 was reduced with a 1 therefore you have 1 for iniative. This is really one of the most basic concepts of the game on any other. If you had a characteristic value and it always existed even when another rule gave you a different value, but you always use the highest, all rules giving you a lower value would have absolutely no effect on the game ever. So do you want to play the game under the assumption that ther are complete and totall pointless rules that exist for no reason but to take up space on a page?