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DE: Mandrakes/ Kaedruakk (or whatever) the Decapitator.

mandrakes have Awesomesauce models, but an infiltrating CC unit that doesn't even get a ranged attack until they kill someone, and which on;y has regular CC weapons, no armour and only a 5+ inv?

Not so hot.

Decapitator pops up anywhere he likes, but can't assault that turn , so he gets to wave at the guys who then level their guns and blow him away..

You can make them work, but it's not generally worth it.


Orks:

Looted Wagon. It's not useless, but it's vastly overpriced for an inferior rhino, and even more overpriced as an inferior basilisk Give me proper Looted Wagons back, dammit !

Guardians
Sniper Drones
Spawn

Pouncey wrote:
They do. ^_^ If you check page 58 of the main rulebook, you'll see that Ordnance weapons always use the large blast template unless specified otherwise.

Also, check out the FAQ for the vanilla Marine codex. ^_^

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170014a_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf

Page 79 and 144 – Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher
Add “Large Blast” to the Type of both the Vengeance
Missiles and Incendary Castellan Missiles.

False. Ordnance BLAST weapons always use the large blast marker unless specified otherwise.

Sasori wrote:Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Sorry - Pyrovores are worse than Carnifexes. At least Carnifexes are decent yet overcosted.
I can't think of a use for Pyrovores besides a suicide unit... and that assumes they get to the target intact.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sasori wrote:Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Sorry - Pyrovores are worse than Carnifexes. At least Carnifexes are decent yet overcosted.
I can't think of a use for Pyrovores besides a suicide unit... and that assumes they get to the target intact.

I hear Lictors are pretty fail these days. Zoanthropes too, though that just might be what I'm seeing. Most of the time, guys play them with Psychic Lance as tank hunters, and every time, without fail, they either miss their attack and get merced next turn, or they fail their psychic test.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sasori wrote:Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Sorry - Pyrovores are worse than Carnifexes. At least Carnifexes are decent yet overcosted.
I can't think of a use for Pyrovores besides a suicide unit... and that assumes they get to the target intact.

I hear Lictors are pretty fail these days.

Lictors have redeeming qualities - Str6 Assault 2 Rending shots, and decent close combat stats (as long as they survive the deep strike turn)

Zoanthropes too, though that just might be what I'm seeing. Most of the time, guys play them with Psychic Lance as tank hunters, and every time, without fail, they either miss their attack and get merced next turn, or they fail their psychic test.

That's essentially my experience with them as well when I proxy them. So I don't use them. But others swear by them and I can see them being effective if you don't fail at die rolling.

Pyrovores I just don't see any redeeming features. They get 1 (2 on the charge!) power weapon attacks with a dazzling strength of 4 at init 1. They have a Heavy Flamer that they can fire even out of Synapse.
All for the low low price of essentially the same as Hive Guard and a coveted Elite slot.

Yeah, I'm not seeing *anything* redeeming.

Grimtuff wrote:

Pouncey wrote:
They do. ^_^ If you check page 58 of the main rulebook, you'll see that Ordnance weapons always use the large blast template unless specified otherwise.

Also, check out the FAQ for the vanilla Marine codex. ^_^

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170014a_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf

Page 79 and 144 – Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher
Add “Large Blast” to the Type of both the Vengeance
Missiles and Incendary Castellan Missiles.

False. Ordnance BLAST weapons always use the large blast marker unless specified otherwise.

Conceded. ^_^ Somehow I missed the word, "Blast" while reading that entry the first time around.

I don't know enough about CSM to know why this is, but every time I've seen someone field Noise Marines, they fail horribly.

On the Pheonix Lords I think that some of them can be ok. Jain Zar and Maugan Ra spring to mind (mainly the former), although they aren't optimum, those 2 aren't bad.

I'd probably say Swooping Hawks for my Eldar, Flash Gitz for my Orks and Blood Claws for the Space Wolves (WS and BS 4 would have been nice).

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

With that, they would still be overcosted, and underwhelming.

Sorry - Pyrovores are worse than Carnifexes. At least Carnifexes are decent yet overcosted.
I can't think of a use for Pyrovores besides a suicide unit... and that assumes they get to the target intact.

Yeah, but I don't own any Pyrovores. So, for me, the most underwhelming unit are my Carnifexes. I forget that Pyrovores even exist most of the time, to tell you the truth.

I like this thread. My list of "one tweak away from being cool" units:

IG: penal legion. So much potential in both fluff and game play, but the lack of options, durability, and offensive output make them little mroe than a fun distraction.

SM: Tactical Squad. Compared to Grey Hunters or BA assault squads, the Tactical squad is just... lacking.

Wolves: Blood Claws. Just overpriced. Make 'em dirt cheap and hand out power weapons/fists, and they'd be fine.

Orks: Storm Boys. They're in no way bad, just not particularly good.

Grey Knights: Whatever their devestators are called. A heavy support choice wtih short range weapons, no access to a pod, and competing with psyflmen, dreadknights, and all three landraider.

Eldar: Storm Guardians. Outside of suicide flamers, I can't think of many good uses for these guys. Admittedly, S3 assault troops are a tough sell in general, so the unit might just be fundamentally flaw, but they seem like a cool idea.

Chaos: Khorne Berzerkers. While nearly the full codex is a step short of being actually cool, berzerkers are a neat unit that is close to being cool. Give them cheaper plasma pistols and access to more assault gear, and drop the points a little.

Tyranids: Tyranid Warriors. While much of the codex is underwheliming, Warriors should be an iconic unit, and just aren't.

Tau: Stealth Suits. Arguably overpowered in 3rd, the 4th edition codex hurt them bad, followed by the end of area terrain in 5th. Fine with a points drop, IMO.

Daemons: Furies. While there are plenty of stinky units in the book, Furies are one of the worst. What seperats them from, say, nurglings or beasts of nurgle is that they could, and should, fill a unit role, as jump pack assault troops. Find a cool trope none of the god specific demons have (like Furious charge, rending, FnP, shooting, etc.). I say give them Preferred enemy, skilled flyer, and counterattack. with fearless and S/T4, they become a really annoying harrassment unit.

Sasori wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

With that, they would still be overcosted, and underwhelming.

Well the dude won the game, so whatever they costed, I wager he'd say they were worth it.

Gargantuan wrote:Chaos space marine spawn.

Worst ever? Yup

In my tau codex? Ethereals, but I still use them and win (LAWL)

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

With that, they would still be overcosted, and underwhelming.

Well the dude won the game, so whatever they costed, I wager he'd say they were worth it.

In a regular game of 40k, they're not. In Apoc, you field everything you have anyway, so the cost isn't as big an issue. Even then, I'd say they are too expensive.

Wolves: Blood Claws. Just overpriced. Make 'em dirt cheap and hand out power weapons/fists, and they'd be fine.

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Screamers. Jetbike meltabombs look decent on paper, then you put this into practice and realise its a single attack each, needing 6s to hit.
Also I dont see how this ability matches the fluff. How can a creature with jaws strong enough to chew through a starship be thwarted by an Ork in little more than a vest?

Maybe they don't like mushrooms.

Sasori wrote:

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Agreed, Blood Claws aren't really out of place with their cost. It's just that next to Grey Hunters which are about 3pts (20%) undercosted, they obviously aren't going to measure up.

UberhAxTHC wrote:Chaos Space Marine possessed. Nothing like having an ability that you can't use when you would like to (Scouts)

Possessed are usless just marines with out bolters........

Then again Chaos Dreads also with this silly Frenzy rule, Dreads are supposed to support assualts in combat not lead them they die turns 1-3 very easy.

Raptors-Jump Troops for Chaos to expencive and not choppy enough I would rather spend on more Bezerkers.

Spawn....well not worth taking point wise would rather pick up another Obliterator.

Special chars: Abbadon pokes himself way to much, Typhus is boring unless you are playing Nurgle forces all the special chars just are not woth the points just take a regular Chaos Lord.

Chaos Bikers: Love em but never seem to have enough models to play em much.

Best Troop choice: Beserkers rule the lists followed by Plague Marines and 1,000 Sons, Noise Marines remind me of the old school Tactical squads of 3rd and 4th edition with flashy special and hvy weapon choices.

Tau Sniper Drone Teams, the unit should get infiltrate or scout or something to get into a better position turn 1. The spotter should be a Shas'ui who gets access to wargear. The drones shouldn't lose Relentless just because they are hanging out with an infantry model.

For Eldar, I find the phoenix lords (with the exception of maybe Maugan Ra) really overcosted for what they do (most don't even have invulnerable saves). Guardians are also pretty lacking.

For chaos I gotta say that the only time a spawn is worth it is if someone gets hit by the gift of chaos, because then it's free. Possesed also went from awesome to just plain overcosted and with a random ability? Only in my wacky fun lists now. I find Fabius bile a bit underwhelming as well. He's not absolutely terrible, but he's only 5 less points than Kharn, and to use his main ability you're looking at +30 points on a 10 man marine squad that may end up wrecking itself right away.

Lychguard never quite seemed to work as well as they should. Dispersion shields are nice, but the ones with warscythes move too slow and die too quick, every time.

Vaktathi wrote:

Sasori wrote:

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Agreed, Blood Claws aren't really out of place with their cost. It's just that next to Grey Hunters which are about 3pts (20%) undercosted, they obviously aren't going to measure up.

I dunno. Bloodclaws are still a power armored assault unit with WS3, 1 attack, and no access to close combat wargear.

Compare them to vanilla scouts: they get a better save and the berzerker charge rule, but lose scout, infiltrate, and move through cover, all for three points. I think that, especially since they need a rhino, making them 12-13 points isn't out of line.

I'll agree that grey hunters are undercosted, although by how much is an interesting debate.

I'd add Noise marines actually. five points per model for +1 Initiative? Another 5 for sonic blasters? No thanks. Waaaay too expensive.

Polonius wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Sasori wrote:

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Agreed, Blood Claws aren't really out of place with their cost. It's just that next to Grey Hunters which are about 3pts (20%) undercosted, they obviously aren't going to measure up.

I dunno. Bloodclaws are still a power armored assault unit with WS3, 1 attack, and no access to close combat wargear.

Compare them to vanilla scouts: they get a better save and the berzerker charge rule, but lose scout, infiltrate, and move through cover, all for three points. I think that, especially since they need a rhino, making them 12-13 points isn't out of line.

I'll agree that grey hunters are undercosted, although by how much is an interesting debate.

Bloodclaws Have BP&CCW Standard, so get 2 Attacks base. They also get 2 attacks on the charge. They get Access to powerfists, which is what everyone takes anyway. You can also Attach Wolfguard, which almost everyone does with GH, to get rid of the Headstrong.

Leman Russ Punisher. That thing might be able to chew up infantry, but, most have armor saves they seem to make. And taking out mech of any kind? Hardly ever.

Sasori wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Sasori wrote:

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Agreed, Blood Claws aren't really out of place with their cost. It's just that next to Grey Hunters which are about 3pts (20%) undercosted, they obviously aren't going to measure up.

I dunno. Bloodclaws are still a power armored assault unit with WS3, 1 attack, and no access to close combat wargear.

Compare them to vanilla scouts: they get a better save and the berzerker charge rule, but lose scout, infiltrate, and move through cover, all for three points. I think that, especially since they need a rhino, making them 12-13 points isn't out of line.

I'll agree that grey hunters are undercosted, although by how much is an interesting debate.

Bloodclaws Have BP&CCW Standard, so get 2 Attacks base. They also get 2 attacks on the charge. They get Access to powerfists, which is what everyone takes anyway. You can also Attach Wolfguard, which almost everyone does with GH, to get rid of the Headstrong.

Hmmm, I didn't know that they could take an upgrade fist. But they still have one base attack, compared to other dedicated assault units like bloodbrides, vanguard, berzerkers, etc.

Part of the problem is that power armored assault units are simply bad with all the power weapons in the meta. The only army that really pulls it off are BA with priests.

the only advantage claws have over hunters is that extra attack on the charge, which is more than made up for, over time, by only being WS3.

You could make them cheaper, but you then quickly run into the trukk boy problem (too few models per transport to really have an impact).

I say make them actually match the fluff: keep 'wm WS3 so they're easy to hit, but give them preferred enemy (hot blooded youths that sacrifice defense for offense). Make them roughly scout priced, and you now have a decently hard hitting, cheap little assault unit. I'd even consider giving them fleet, but that might be a bit too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

martin74 wrote:Leman Russ Punisher. That thing might be able to chew up infantry, but, most have armor saves they seem to make. And taking out mech of any kind? Hardly ever.

I love the concept, but in practice it's so lousy. Shooting at T3 in cover results in just over four dead. Lame.

I'd make it S6, Heavy 12, but ignores cover.

seekers of the slaaneshi persuasion...i just can't get them in fast enough to do any damage. there a decent enough unit and are a viable choice, but they just have never gotten off the ground to do what they need to for me in my games, i might be using them wrong or just being a slowed tactician.

but yeah as far as units that i use in my army that are potentially good...yes seekers are the most underwhelming for me.

Probably storm troopers, not because they are bad, but because they have so much promise, fluff and theoretical ways of playing them, but when it comes down to it they only really have one use, tank hunting - underwhelming.

Nids - Ripper Swarms of any variety
Crons - Triarch Praetorians

Deathstrike Launcher.

It may hit hard and have a wide blast radius (that sometimes isn't veyr big). but outside of Apoc and the Vortex just isn't worth it.