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Deathstrike missile launcher vs Punisher. Which is the suckiest in the IG codex? Both are great in fluff and purpose, but, don't deliver.

The difference is that the deathstrike is actually good at what it says.

You may need to build the (very strange) army around the unit, but an army built around deathstrikes will win more games than one built around punishers.

Hell, even throwing a deathstrike into an AV12 spam list could at least be interesting.

If people are mentioning anything apart from beasts of nurgle or furies for daemons...your mad.

lol.

Ailaros wrote:
In SM, the worst unit is probably the TFC (congratulations, you managed to kill three whole guardsmen before a single autocannon knocked it out?),

If it were a guard Autocannon, it only has a 1/6 chance of killing the TFC. You're probably forgetting a cover save, which should be easy enough to achieve since you only have to get cover for one infantry model.

Also, remember the TFC is only 25 points. It comes with a 75 point Techmarine.

martin74 wrote:Leman Russ Punisher. That thing might be able to chew up infantry, but, most have armor saves they seem to make. And taking out mech of any kind? Hardly ever.

It squishes MEQ, tyranids, MCs, anything that's not a terminator really.
On topic I'd say conscripts. Just downright rubbish, an obvious candidate for point decrease and/or free commissar.

From the perspective of what has the most potential to be good or fun to use but then flops I'd go with:

IG: Techpriests. It's a pretty interesting idea to be able to repair your vehicles and the combat potential of Servitors further makes them a very exciting unit. But then they fall flat on their face. Servitors are by no means the best ways to get heavy weapons or powerfists in the 'dex and the Techpriests themselves end up being largely useless for their points because their repair ability is just so... meh. You have to be in base contact, and you have to roll to see if it works, and that's assuming your vehicle got a 3 or 4 on the damage table as it can't fix 1 or 2 or bring them back from the dead.

Daemons: Seekers of Slaanesh. They aren't a bad unit, certainly not as bad as some others, but their potential is just so much higher than their actual effectiveness. I expect to be dashing around the map picking off weak units, harrassing flanks... instead they seem to be fighting with Nerf swords only getting the few rend wounds to do any damage. And then when things hit them they fall apart like a small child's mind as he walks in on his parents making sweet, sweet love.

The problem with tech priests are that mech guard lists are about bringing as much firepower as possible to the board with as many hulls. Techpriest+servitors are expensive and VERY vulnerable, and become even less effective if you give them all plasma cannons.
Personally I don't see that he fits. He definitely fits in with more hybrid-esque marines, but I don't see how he can work in mech IG and should probably be scrapped.

Marzillius wrote:

Puscifer wrote:Paladins. They can take a hit, but just cannot dish one out.

You're kidding, right?

My most underwhelming unit is probably the Phoenix Lords. They are soooo expensive and sooooo useless. I think Swooping Hawks are way better.

Not kidding in the slightest. Yeah they are good, just not 55 points good.

The only good Phoenix Lord is Maugan Ra. That guy is just nasty.

Hmmm, I didn't know that they could take an upgrade fist. But they still have one base attack, compared to other dedicated assault units like bloodbrides, vanguard, berzerkers, etc.

You just compared a cheap assault troop unit with Elite 20+ costing units..

Which on the charge can match them, thank you very much.

Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Cannoness.

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

Necron: Flayed ones, they're so bad they didn't even get mentioned yet. There warriors with more attack, that can infiltrate, but cant shoot. Or even affect morale(since there whole concept is melee troops that are horrifying, thats just sad) Preatorians get mentioned because they are CLOSE to useful, just a tweek to the stat line and they'd be good...

Swooping Hawks.

What on Earth are they for? They have the guns for tackling light infantry but the special rules, upgrades and equipment for killing tanks.

And they can't really do either.

Or Guardians.

Because it makes so much sense to equip your dying race's civilians with awful armour and Assault 2 12" weapons...

I play Tau. I think the question should be...

What is the ONLY unit that is good in your codex?

Pheonix lords deserve a second. Especially Maugan Ra. Dude pulls a planet out of the warp with his bare hands, kills an entire hive fleet. But no invuln, and a mediocre gun.....

Also Ogryns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OH! and Yarrick. Really wish his rules matched his fluff.

Thunder Fire Cannon is not a waste, nor, near the worst selection in the SM codex, not even the worst heavy support choice. It can work in any list. Three different munitions to destroy, or at least slow down a unit.

Ogryns, alot more useful than a punisher. I have killed more with 5 ogryns than a Punisher(heavy bolter sponsons, heavy bolter, and pask).

Orks are saddled with the Looted Wagons - AV 11/11/10 and DPD! means it's next to useless.

I would have to say a Ministorum Priest.
They cost 45 points with no upgrades, and +15points for an eviscerator(same as chainfist).
The crappy thing about him is that he has normal guardsmanstats, he is independent character (worth killpoint and dies before hitting in melee) and the bonus you get isn't very good.(reroll failed to hit if you charge)
For 60 points i can get another guardsmansquad with a powerweapon / vox+flamer, and thats alot more benefitial.

Someone mentioned Techpriest, but i have to disagree. its true that they cost alot, and aren't allmighty, but my experience, especially vs tyranids tells me that a trygon/carnifex that deepstrikes close to the tank, planning to rip it appart the following round have been stopped by a squad of a techpriest and 4 servitors. Not only do they "occupy" the carnifex long enough for the russ to get away, but with 5 strenght 8 weapons you do in fact do damage to a monsterous creature

EASY!!! Codex Daemons: Furies

so much suck, for so many points, for so very little output. Only redeeming quality is there is NO competition for them

Sleepysloth wrote:From the perspective of what has the most potential to be good or fun to use but then flops I'd go with:

IG: Techpriests. It's a pretty interesting idea to be able to repair your vehicles and the combat potential of Servitors further makes them a very exciting unit. But then they fall flat on their face. Servitors are by no means the best ways to get heavy weapons or powerfists in the 'dex and the Techpriests themselves end up being largely useless for their points because their repair ability is just so... meh. You have to be in base contact, and you have to roll to see if it works, and that's assuming your vehicle got a 3 or 4 on the damage table as it can't fix 1 or 2 or bring them back from the dead.

Daemons: Seekers of Slaanesh. They aren't a bad unit, certainly not as bad as some others, but their potential is just so much higher than their actual effectiveness. I expect to be dashing around the map picking off weak units, harrassing flanks... instead they seem to be fighting with Nerf swords only getting the few rend wounds to do any damage. And then when things hit them they fall apart like a small child's mind as he walks in on his parents making sweet, sweet love.

I lol'd.

OT, Wraithguard never quite seemed as tough as they possibly should be...

SoulGazer wrote:Lychguard. Only useful if your enemy is stupid and actually lets them get anywhere near 6" of his units. On paper they seem really nice, but if you just shoot them enough before they get near you they're just a huge waste of points. Of course, 6th edition could always make them more useful, but we'll see.

I donno man, veil of darkness / night scythe really helps that, personally it'll probably be flayed ones.

TermiesInARaider wrote:
I lol'd.

OT, Wraithguard never quite seemed as tough as they possibly should be...

Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

I'm going to have to echo Imperial Guard conscripts. Their role is completely eclipsed by standard IG infantry squads, who have better WS, BS, and LD, frag grenades, access to special/heavy/power weapons, and Commissars, all for 1 point more per model. I can't think of a better theoretical tarpit than conscripts with a Commissar, but you can't take them in the unit. Real shame. I also wish Penal Legions were available as larger units, as 10 Guardsmen are going to die like chumps, and Penal Legion sounds more like a unit that would be good for massed infantry charges.

For Space Marines, I'm nominating Legion of the Damned. If you want to spend 20 points for a flamer, be my guest. For how many points it costs for a Legionnaire with a heavy flamer, you can get a Landspeeder with one. If you want a unit with just as much firepower, take a tactical squad. If you want a squad with more survivability, take TH/SS Terminators. When you kit out a squad with special weapons, they end up costing almost as much as assault Terminators anyway, and for the same cost you can usually get Sternguard to do a far better job. Shame, since their fluff is neat and their models rule.

Or poison.. Lots of poison

TermiesInARaider wrote:OT, Wraithguard never quite seemed as tough as they possibly should be...

They're pretty tough, but they're slow, with short ranged guns, and you can't even fit a full squad of 10 into a wave serpent, which means that if you want to give them any mobility you're taking them as an elites choice, which when you have fire dragons for less points, and arguably as much effectiveness, it leaves them wanting IMO. They are quite good in a full squad of 10 (so they count as troops) get a warlock with conceal and maybe even a four tune seer and camp em on an objective. Very hard to get off. Still though, I find them kinda underwhelming as well.

Serge-David wrote:

SoulGazer wrote:Lychguard. Only useful if your enemy is stupid and actually lets them get anywhere near 6" of his units. On paper they seem really nice, but if you just shoot them enough before they get near you they're just a huge waste of points. Of course, 6th edition could always make them more useful, but we'll see.

I donno man, veil of darkness / night scythe really helps that, personally it'll probably be flayed ones.

I'm going to actually second the Lychguard, but Flayed Ones are also a good call. The dispersion shields are pretty rocking, but if you give them warscythes, they just don't last long enough. That's just how I see them played, though. Might just be the guys I hang with.

Kroot.

They have horrendously failed me every time I used them.


I'm glad I can better pull off wins when I use Firewarriors

Most underwhelming unit? I would say Asurmen, you pay so much points for basically a tarpit, I could find a use for any other Phoenix lord but not one for him, in terms of units I woul like to get but couldn't it would be Storm Guardians, they only come in packs of 8 but the minimum unit size is 10 -_-

PhrycePhyre wrote:Most underwhelming unit? I would say Asurmen, you pay so much points for basically a tarpit, I could find a use for any other Phoenix lord but not one for him, in terms of units I woul like to get but couldn't it would be Storm Guardians, they only come in packs of 8 but the minimum unit size is 10 -_-

Ever tried putting Asurmen into a full-on seer council? He becomes a WS8 I8 monster that (if cast) rerolls his 2+/4+ and rerolls his rerolls to hit. He may also reroll to wound. Not to mention he reduces all enemy attacks by 1 and THEN you've got all the Warlocks and the Seers attacks. The unit becomes a nigh unstoppable deathstar. He is by no means the least useful Pheonix Lord. Barroth or Maugan Ra have that honour.

Sasori wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

With that, they would still be overcosted, and underwhelming.

That would be the Behemoth Crusher Brood. What's weird is it goes some way to fixing Carnifexes and then goes the other way and still makes them worse. When in the brood, they get fleet and that ranged attack, which is actually pretty nasty, so two of their big drawbacks are addressed - not being as fast as Trygons, and not having a default ranged attack. The downside is they are required to take a set of crushing claws, the worst weapon option they can take.