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 cincydooley wrote:

They've provided updates when things have changed. That SHOULD be enough. But with gamers, it doesn't ever seem to be. They want to see this shipped as much as the backers do.

Oh really? How long after they knew of the printing delay issue did it take for them to let us know the game would be delayed? The official update was 2 Nov, to inform us there was no way they would meet the 'Estimated delivery: Nov 2012 '. Think that was the first time they knew they would not meet their estimate? No, they held on to bad news.


Sorry, their track record of updating us is not very good. The printing issue was a big example of a 'things have changed' that they delayed letting us know about. Break trust once with your customers like that and you have no right to complain when the customers want more/current/timely updates.

Or perhaps they where waiting to see if they could find a resolution to the printing issue rather than issuing a statement that would set of all the sky is falling doom mongers.

Basically, if they're going to update, they might as well do so politely/professionally.

As a business, they gain absolutely nothing from doing otherwise.

You should see some of the 'I've not got it yet' posts on the Dreadball comments/forum

'I've not got mine, while other people in my country have theirs...... unacceptable etc'

not everybody, most understand that postal services struggle over Xmas, but a very vocal minority

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Or perhaps they where waiting to see if they could find a resolution to the printing issue rather than issuing a statement that would set of all the sky is falling doom mongers.

So you'll be happy if the next we hear is mid February with bad news that a container was lost or some other tragic event? As long as at that point they think they have a resolution?



I would have expected a "we are having printer issues and are looking for a way to get past them, but we will not be able to meet our estimated delivery right now. We'll keep you informed as we move through this' type of update once they realized they had the issue.

I'm sure it is just me, but I've both disciplined my kids for hiding bad news and disciplined and in one case fired a subordinate for doing the same. You don't build trust by hiding bad news. I won't assume the best and that everything is on track when dealing with a company that has hidden bad news in the past. To regain my trust they need to keep me informed of the good and the bad.

CptJake wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Or perhaps they where waiting to see if they could find a resolution to the printing issue rather than issuing a statement that would set of all the sky is falling doom mongers.

So you'll be happy if the next we hear is mid February with bad news that a container was lost or some other tragic event? As long as at that point they think they have a resolution?



I would have expected a "we are having printer issues and are looking for a way to get past them, but we will not be able to meet our estimated delivery right now. We'll keep you informed as we move through this' type of update once they realized they had the issue.

I'm sure it is just me, but I've both disciplined my kids for hiding bad news and disciplined and in one case fired a subordinate for doing the same. You don't build trust by hiding bad news. I won't assume the best and that everything is on track when dealing with a company that has hidden bad news in the past. To regain my trust they need to keep me informed of the good and the bad.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but I believe the relationships you e described are a bit different from the retailer-customer relationship. I think it is prudent of them to attempt to solve the problem before announcing the bad news to a community that doesn't take any kind of change well. I enjoy the gaming community, but it has to be the most spoiled, entitled, and whiny consumer community that exists.

I have to be honest and say that I'm not really even disappointed its shipping late. I have tons of other stuff from the holiday to keep me occupied and when my copy eventually comes in January it'll be like a second Christmas. I know around when gak will be here and I'm more than happy with that. And unless something else drastic changes, I don't need to be spoon fed constant updates.

CptJake wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Or perhaps they where waiting to see if they could find a resolution to the printing issue rather than issuing a statement that would set of all the sky is falling doom mongers.

So you'll be happy if the next we hear is mid February with bad news that a container was lost or some other tragic event? As long as at that point they think they have a resolution?



I would have expected a "we are having printer issues and are looking for a way to get past them, but we will not be able to meet our estimated delivery right now. We'll keep you informed as we move through this' type of update once they realized they had the issue.

I'm sure it is just me, but I've both disciplined my kids for hiding bad news and disciplined and in one case fired a subordinate for doing the same. You don't build trust by hiding bad news. I won't assume the best and that everything is on track when dealing with a company that has hidden bad news in the past. To regain my trust they need to keep me informed of the good and the bad.

So you would rather your kids fess up so you can have the fun of being the big man and getting to punish them rather than have then try to make amends for said mistake?

In this case the announcement regarding the printer was a whole two days after the projected start time for dispatch. When dealing with a demanding, sometimes petulant and often whiny customer base you have to look at the amount of time between discovery of a problem and resolution as to wether it is appropriate to make an announcement or not. In this case they waited to make the announcement with resolution in place as the timescale between the two was small enough that it was better to wait to make an announcement than to cause a disproportionate amount of fuss. If there was to be a problem without any forthcoming solutions or one that would result in a major delay (which with starting a new product line this would be in the order of months not weeks) then I would expect an announcement and I believe that coolmini and studio mcvey would tell us if such a tragic fate befell the project.

 RiTides wrote:
Basically, if they're going to update, they might as well do so politely/professionally.

As a business, they gain absolutely nothing from doing otherwise.

This.
And I'd rather they update than not. And "hiding" the printer issue until well after it was "resolved" doesn't breed trust. They could say "Here's the issue were currently facing, we're working on resolving it." And then another update after the issue is taken care of.
The backers aren't just customers - we're investors. Investors deserve a little more than snide comments in an update.

@rigeld2 invest in the construction of a skyscraper and see if they update you every time a toilet fails to flush

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@rigeld2 invest in the construction of a skyscraper and see if they update you every time a toilet fails to flush

Yeah, major delays in shipping is totally comparable to a minor part of a major construction effort.
Thanks for mocking my point though - really makes you look like a man.

 scipio.au wrote:
The CM people aren't great on the old customer service, are they?

Since CMoN is essentially New Wave Mail Order 2.0, is that really surprising?

rigeld2 wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@rigeld2 invest in the construction of a skyscraper and see if they update you every time a toilet fails to flush

Yeah, major delays in shipping is totally comparable to a minor part of a major construction effort.
Thanks for mocking my point though - really makes you look like a man.

Is it really a major delay? They were hoping, at best case, a late November shipping date. At best case. They informed us of the problem after they had it resolved with plenty of time, and the delay is minimal.

And people can't have it both ways in regards to the backers vs investors argument. You're either one or the other, and you don't get to flip flop when it suits you. Further, as an investor, you shouldn't WANT to know every tiny update. I don't care how many times you wipe or that your gak was chunky; all I need to know is that you went to the bathroom. If you can't go for a day or two, try and fix it. If it becomes a week, maybe then it's time to see a doctor. We're not at that point with this.

Honestly, I think the clamoring for updates about every piece of minutia is unreasonable, and simply speaks to the sense of entititlement I mentioned earlier.

rigeld2 wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@rigeld2 invest in the construction of a skyscraper and see if they update you every time a toilet fails to flush

Yeah, major delays in shipping is totally comparable to a minor part of a major construction effort.
Thanks for mocking my point though - really makes you look like a man.

A problem with sewerage would affect the completion date of a construction project, just like a problem with a printer has delayed a stage completion of this project. Yet you find it appropriate that only one should have an update. Yes small issues can have big knock on delays in a project, they can also turn out to be quickly resolved with no disruption once investigated and solutions have been looked at. You don't panic the investors until that investigation has taken place, screaming "its all gone wrong" from the rafters does nothing to resolve the issue and only means resources that could be directed to resolution are taken up with communications to investors who want explanations for what's gone wrong. Which you can't provide because you didnt investigate the issue before making the announcement. See the problem with that?

Way to create and throw straw mans.
No, a single toilet failing to flush is meaningless - which is what you originally said. A sewage problem that actually delays construction isn't meaningless and would warrant an update.

I don't think clamping for updates about every piece of minutiae is reasonable. I do think that the shipping date slipping for 6 weeks and (afaik) the only problem being the printer... That seems like a major issue. It's not minutiae.

And all of that isn't the main point - that if they choose to communicate, they should do so professionally/politely - not by talking down to the people giving them money as if we are blessed by heading the words they type.

rigeld2 wrote:
Way to create and throw straw mans.
No, a single toilet failing to flush is meaningless - which is what you originally said. A sewage problem that actually delays construction isn't meaningless and would warrant an update.

I don't think clamping for updates about every piece of minutiae is reasonable. I do think that the shipping date slipping for 6 weeks and (afaik) the only problem being the printer... That seems like a major issue. It's not minutiae.

And all of that isn't the main point - that if they choose to communicate, they should do so professionally/politely - not by talking down to the people giving them money as if we are blessed by heading the words they type.

Your accusations of straw manning are hilarious obviously you made your mind up already on this matter so I won't bother myself further with you so onto ignore you go.

Just remember if your not happy contact coolmini cancel your pledge and get a refund, obviously you won't do that but the option is there.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:

So you would rather your kids fess up so you can have the fun of being the big man and getting to punish them rather than have then try to make amends for said mistake?

I suggest you know nothing about my parenting techniques and that this type of crap is not quite appropriate.

Holy, crap. Is this really a big deal? They have one of the containers in the port and are waiting on the second one to begin shipping to the US backers. It'll happen by the 2nd, or may the 7th if the New Year slows stuff down, plus the time for the post to ship it. Sheesh.

Next I expect forum backers in the western US to start screaming when they haven't "got their stuff" when backers in the Eastern US are joyfully posting about their newest arrival in the mail, regardless of the fact that it takes time for the mail to travel the length of a continent.

There have been non-Kickstarter game preorders that have taken far longer than SedWars has. Six and a half months is not that big a deal when you originally accepted it would be at least five.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Your accusations of straw manning are hilarious obviously you made your mind up already on this matter so I won't bother myself further with you so onto ignore you go.

Yes, I've made up my mind that I wished there was better communication and that they shouldn't be so brusque in their emails.
Ignoring me is your loss. /shrug.

Just remember if your not happy contact coolmini cancel your pledge and get a refund, obviously you won't do that but the option is there.

I'm aware. I'm not sure what you think I'm raging at - because I'm not. You've created things that I'm arguing about and tried to counterpoint them - the very definition of a strawman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Holy, crap. Is this really a big deal? They have one of the containers in the port and are waiting on the second one to begin shipping to the US backers. It'll happen by the 2nd, or may the 7th if the New Year slows stuff down. Sheesh.

Next I expect forum backers in the western US to start screaming when they haven't "got their stuff" when backers in the Eastern US are joyfully posting about their newest arrival in the mail, regardless of the fact that it takes time for the mail to travel the length of a continent.

The fact that there's no real update isn't a big deal. The fact that they were unprofessional in their not-an-update isn't a big deal, but is annoying. Are people not allowed to bring up annoying facts anymore without being thought of as nerd raging?

 BaconSlayer wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:
The CM people aren't great on the old customer service, are they?

Since CMoN is essentially New Wave Mail Order 2.0, is that really surprising?

This.

This is the very reason why I do not give them any slack on Updates to projects, thier less then steller interaction with projects, and thier customer service. Some of us know how it went before, and even if there are hundreds out there that don't know any better- Crap is crap.

You pull in a couple of million on several similer projects and act the same way it is the way you do business. They are not going to change it either, it got them over two or three million, why should they?

I pulled my money out of this project, by the way. Appearently they didn't want it bad enough.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@rigeld2 invest in the construction of a skyscraper and see if they update you every time a toilet fails to flush

Actually, I have several large buildings currently under construction and the foremans send me reports every single day. When I receive these, I compile them once a week to send out to the investors on the various projects.

 IdentifyZero wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@rigeld2 invest in the construction of a skyscraper and see if they update you every time a toilet fails to flush

Actually, I have several large buildings currently under construction and the foremans send me reports every single day. When I receive these, I compile them once a week to send out to the investors on the various projects.

And, if its like any project I run, the investors don't look at a single page of those unless you specifically call something out ;-)

On a different topic and a bit of an update - New Images from Ali

Niven and Ramirez

I'm liking all four sculpts.

I like two of the four, but still dislike the other two.

Well I like all four,

but Ramirez is probably my favorite, especially her 'clever-gun'

Unmutated Niven looks awfully static, and I mean that in an 80's single-piece model way. not good! It does look easy enough to fix, however. it's okay, but not great. Mutated version is awesome.
Mutated Ramirez, well, bleurgh! And I mean that in the best possible way; just as it should be
Not much of a fan of the unmutated version; something looks 'off' with it. Can't quite say what but proportions don't look right from the front. I've swallowed such words before after either seeing a model from a different angle, or simply painted, however. Guessing this might be like DB's wildcard; pictures are... not good but up close it'll be just fine.

Also, these are basically board game pieces we're getting at ridiculously low prices, basically just a bit over what you'd pay for the average tac. marine.
It's so easy to forget that when looking at the kind of sculpts shown on this project that I think we might at times be holding these things to a standard which we'd normally apply to a ~10GBP/ea. model - and that isn't exactly fair

Now that's an update!

Loving the previews, and glad I picked them up.

So far all the sculpts previewed here have made me happy, whereas a lot of the previews on RK have made me wary.

McVey all the way!

No, more along the lines of complaining about how they're unreliable and don't spend enough money with him. Funny thing was, as Fenriswulf pointed out, the information was actually relevant. If you want to see how it can be done a lot better, check out Dreamforge or Mantic, or even Stonehaven or Red Box. It's not about impatience, it's about taking 2 minutes to keep the people who gave them close to a million bucks informed in a non-snarky manner. Out of, you know, courtesy.

If you've ever worked in any form of CS or had to deal with even a specific sector of the public, you might know how important that is. Being the sarcastic, snarky guy in the game shop doesn't work when dealing with the public. You have to put on a public face. it doesn't mean being fake, but it does mean having some control over your more snarky urges and remembering that you represent your company, and that your behaviours and actions in the situation will reflect on both yourself and the company. I believe it's called "being professional".

 scipio.au wrote:
No, more along the lines of complaining about how they're unreliable and don't spend enough money with him. Funny thing was, as Fenriswulf pointed out, the information was actually relevant. If you want to see how it can be done a lot better, check out Dreamforge or Mantic, or even Stonehaven or Red Box. It's not about impatience, it's about taking 2 minutes to keep the people who gave them close to a million bucks informed in a non-snarky manner. Out of, you know, courtesy.

If you've ever worked in any form of CS or had to deal with even a specific sector of the public, you might know how important that is. Being the sarcastic, snarky guy in the game shop doesn't work when dealing with the public. You have to put on a public face. it doesn't mean being fake, but it does mean having some control over your more snarky urges and remembering that you represent your company, and that your behaviours and actions in the situation will reflect on both yourself and the company. I believe it's called "being professional".

Plenty of that close to $1M don't want or need "nothing" updates though. IMO this one wasnt even needed. Sadly, they have to appease the entitled whiny few.

This update wasn't needed. Correct.
So that means they can be sarcastic and rude?