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I have enjoyed most of the series but there were a few inconsistencies and dire books that annoyed me.

I have not read them all. Some of the books I've enjoyed, even the ones that weren't my favs I didnt' hate enough to put the book down and not finish the story.


I really liked "Thousand Sons". I really enjoyed it. Whether it was "good literature" is not for me to say since I am not a literature expert. The story captured my interest.


Having played and enjoyed Adeptus Titanicus back in 1990 I was glad to get some additional background info on the HH. Even if it's changing (i.e. mutating) as time goes by.

Angron was a product of the planet that he landed on. Granted the butchers nails didn't help, but the emperor saw that dispite his short comings that Angron was atleast in some part a nessary leader in the way he waged war. Though Angron always bore a grudge against the emperor for not allowing him to die in battle with those of whom he lead his rebellion with. So it makes sense that he would turn. Khan his second in command is a great character in my book. He is the other side of the World Eaters legion. Pick up Butchers Nails audio drama. Its a great story. You even see alittle bit of Angrons relationship with Logar, which is actually suprising.

A small point on the "re-write" of Alpharius / Omegon being Twins.

i fully believe that this was the intention from the beginning (or a HUGE coincidence) for the following reasons.

Alpharius is supposedly named after a Star named Alphard (from an arabic word for "solitary one") which is found in the constellation named Hydra. The tie in between the legion and his name are quite obvious from this observation. However, what is little known is that Alphard is a binary star. It was thought to be a single star throughout most of its known existence, but in truth it is a double star (an unseen twin.....hmmmmm.)

The constellation Hydra actually has at least 4 of these binary stars.

So in my books at least, GW always intended this, even if they never fully came out with it. Also, it shows that "Alpharius" was not the worst named primarch, and actually had quite a bit of thought put into him.

All the primarchs names have meanings to them. They're lously based around mythology, and historical figures.

Oh without a doubt. Some are a lot more clever than others for sure, but thought i would bring it up because of the "fluff change" regarding the twins, as well as how many people on the internet go off about how little thought went into the primarchs of the XX legion.

Your wife and i are alike. I love the books but will not play the game. I cant even get my wife to read the books. Lol

Its kinda funny me and my wife talk about warhammer a lot. I'm really glad that I was able to get her into the books. Though she doesn't play, I've picked up models of Abbadon, and old ord squigs for her. She's actually making the old squig into a charm for a necklace. And the Abbadon model is so she can invision him in the 41st mellenia as opposed to the great cursade.

I like the stories... i mean there isn't much I don't like but that's because i don't really know what makes it bad... I like things to a lesser extent I guess, but to me the HH novels are good as what they are.

Not amazing literary works but more fun novels that add some more to the fluff universe.

So I guess I love it? X) I've only read a couple so that might change

They're fun to read. The fact the explore the experiences of normal humans is really cool to me. To live in the times when the imperium was the leading force to be contended with. Awesome stuff.

I generally like the books, pretty much the only one I really had trouble with was Outcast Dead, and that's because of the timeline issues in it.

I don't look at it as really retconning the fluff, more of "pulling back the veil" on information that had (in universe) been lost for 10,000+ years.

The Alpharius thing especially makes sense with the Alpha Legion, after all:

I enjoy them. They aren't all winners (Fulgrim was the worst, IMHO), but they're certainly entertaining.

What didn't you like about fulgrim? Just curious.

I have to admit too. Fulgrim was a little different. I always thought of him as being vayne and arogant. But, seeing him possessed kinda answered why he turned. The sword though was a interesting twist. I liked the cover art of the book. But, the fight between Fulgrim on the cover was both cool, but the clash of the teo primarchs on the cover was confusing. It looks like Ferrus Manus has a bloody cresent rench.

If you thought that was different read the first part of the Primarchs book.

I love the Horus Heresy, and I agree that some of the stories are a little meh. The outcast dead is the best example of the horus heresy series going 100% wrong, and I still despise that book on my bookshelf.

But gems like Flight of the Eisenstein , The First Heretic, and A Thousand Sons are amazing stories.

Deathshead420 wrote:What didn't you like about fulgrim? Just curious.

Though I enjoyed the books I had one major problem...

The look ofthe Primarchs.

I spent years and years designing the primarchs as I saw them in my minds eye.

The descriptions of them used to be few and far between.

Magnus the Red is the stupidest looking character in anything ever. The two headed announcer from the podrace in Episode one looked better.

If you want to see a real Magnus please check out my gallery.

I always imagined Leman Russ as a large balding viking with a huge, white, braided beard. Guess he's a ginger.

I always felt Alpharius should have been a small discreet primarch that didn't have a huge mane of hair and a crazy serpent cape. Guess I'm glad they did change that.

Basically I hate John Blanche. If you like his artwork than I simply cannot agree with you on anything art related.

His style is... Scrible till out of black ink. Add red watercolor to taste.

In short, I have no problem with the HH novels. I hate the HH art books.

Russ is derived from Rus (the originating word of Russia etc) Related to early Slavic terms from bear and red.

DeffDred wrote:
I always imagined Leman Russ as a large balding viking with a huge, white, braided beard. Guess he's a ginger.

Well, to be fair, artwork for Russ has been around far longer than Blanche's.


But it shouldn't surprise you that he's a ginger. After all, it's pretty obvious that the Space Wolves don't have any souls.

I've read the first four and Fulgrim. I loved the first one. I feel like they go down hill slowly with each book (writing skill dropping for the most part, characters less dimensional). I'm getting ready to start Mechanicum.

I started playing 40k back in Rogue Trader. Slaves to Darkness was my bible... I played Grey Knights and Emperor's Children in the early 90's. I'm not a huge fan of the changes to the narratives (Eisenstein etc.) but that's just a personal thing I guess.

I do enjoy reading about background events and psychology of the characters. The battles are mostly hack writing in my opinion.

Has anyone here read Blood Gorgons? I really, really like almost all aspects of that book including the violence and I'm trying to decide if the writing style was all that different... the battles seemed to be written much better.

Love them-I enjoy reading about things that seem cool to me, and HH is my favorite set of events in 40k. Flight of the Eisenstein is my favorite so far. The ones I haven't liked as much tend to be a result of a legion I didn't like (Fulgrim and Legion) but the others are all entertaining.

After Eisenstein and anything Garro related, my favorites are Prospero Burns, Battle for the Abyss/Know No Fear, and Iron Within from Age of Darkness.

The one thing I do hate about the series is that the storyline relating to Garro has been moved to audiobook form as I like reading about things instead of listening.

I overall enjoy the stories enough to pick up the installments as they come out. Currently, ADB is my favorite, I can usually trust McNeil and Abnett to deliver, and I can always expect Gav Thorpe to be terrible and hackneyed. Everyone else falls somewhere in the middle.


Seriously, Gav Thorpe is awful. Here's an example, where a few of the HH authors are asked a question about their favorite part of the HH:

What, of all the things written, both by yourself or others, have you found to be the most heart-rending or soul searching of events or characters within the Heresy?

Graham McNeill: I definitely had a lump in my throat when Torgaddon died.

Gav Thorpe: Corax’s single tear in Raven’s Flight as he realises the galaxy has changed and doesn’t know where he fits in it anymore.

Dan Abnett: I don’t have a specific event, but I love the fact that, before he falls, Horus Lupercal is such a likeable character. It makes it much more tragic when he does turn.

James Swallow: I really liked the moment in Flight of the Eisenstein when the planet is virus bombed and Temeter nobly sacrifices himself.

Three of the authors pick moments of great heroism and/or deep tragedy. Gav Thorpe picks some juvenile emo bullcrap. The fact that he actually thinks a Primarch shedding a single tear because he feels sorry for himself is cool, speaks volumes. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a cutter in high school. Someone in this thread called him amateurish. Although that's very true, that's the least of his problems.

I can use help deciding my next book.

I have read Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Flight of the Eisenstein, Fulgrim, and then I jumped around a bit.

Next I read Prospero Burns, A thousand Sons, First Heretic, Know know Fear, Aurelian, and Primarchs. The order in which I read them was really good imo, because it followed almost like one big story arc.


I'm not sure which one to read next, any suggestions ?

Deathshead420 wrote:I can use help deciding my next book.

I have read Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Flight of the Eisenstein, Fulgrim, and then I jumped around a bit.

Next I read Prospero Burns, A thousand Sons, First Heretic, Know know Fear, Aurelian, and Primarchs. The order in which I read them was really good imo, because it followed almost like one big story arc.


I'm not sure which one to read next, any suggestions ?

Depends, do you have a favorite legion / primarch?

No not really. I am a little sic of the traitors though to be honest.

Than the first to come to my mind would be Deliverance Lost, which some people don't like at all, but i found to be one of my favorites.

Or if you happen to like the Alpha Legion, i would recommend Legion highly, one also one of my favorites so far.

kronk wrote:

Deathshead420 wrote:What didn't you like about fulgrim? Just curious.

Spoiler:

Choking out a Wraithlord, which doesn't breathe, was wrong on so many levels. That was a fail not only of fluff and silliness, but one of the basics of Eldar knowledge. Inexcusable.

It's funny isn't it, there can be a single defining moment that breaks that suspension of disbelief, and then the whole thing falls on its bottom.

McNeil can be incredible at producing end of book quotes that put the hairs on your neck up on end. Actually, I was going to mention Fulgrim - when he is looking around on Istvaan, and sees what has become of his children, and then the enormity of what he has done finally hits home. Similarly Mechanicum, where there is an incredibly poignant moment towards the end of the book - everything has gone to hell, and in a single sentence we see the contrast between the 30k and 40k universes. I can't remember the exact quote unfortunately, but something along the lines of "and in that moment, as the great forges sank between the waves of magma, all hope of lifting humankind towards a state of enlightenment not seen since the Dark Ages of Technology were lost forever."

I do think though that some of the writing in the Heresy series (and this is my biggest problem with it) is that it is so difficult to write 'evil' characters well, and at the same time not making them paradoxical in nature, and destroying that suspension of disbelief. ADB and McNeil (at least in A Thousand Sons) do it well, by not actually making the characters 'evil' - those characters have to believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and there are reasons for it, even if they ultimately end up on the 'wrong' side. But, when you have characters just turning on a dime and doing 'evil for evils sake' the whole thing comes across as false and contrived.

I think in part this is due to how the concept of 'Chaos' has changed over the years. In terms of its original concept (from Michael Moorcock et al) it was always meant to represent freedom from rule and infinite possibility. The direct, straight lined arrow of the Imperium represented the opposite. However, over time this conception has changed, and rather than the design of the demons from the warp being influenced by Eastern religions, of spirits which have varied character and are as varied as everything else in nature, instead they followed the Middle-Age Christian Church embellishments of the Bible, and those definitions of 'evil' daemons and spirits which exist only to inflict suffering on others. The problem is that the concept of 'evil for evil' sake' is intrinsically paradoxical, and so clashes with any attempt to create strong narrative and character arcs that the reader can relate to. The classic example of this is the classic "let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded" quote in the last Chaos Codex - if there was an entry in the Guinness Book of Records for the most eye-rolling caused by a single extract then that would surely win the award. So, at least for myself the series has been at its best when it has stayed away from the more poorly imagined, ephemeral concepts inherent to the background. One of the biggest disappointment of the series for me was 'Horus -> stabbed by magic sword -> starts nailing babies to forehead'. I would have much rathered that there was some kind of real rationale for why the Heresy took place, rather than events which seem to have removed the over-arching narrative from any form of cause and effect, beyond the most cursory of explanations ("erm... my father has gone back to Terra, how dare he!"

Having said that, I love the way that the most of the marines in the Heresy series have so much character, and give the reader so much to relate to - contrast with the two-dimensional drones who are often featured in the 40k universe. Also, when the likes of Abnett have been given some room on the leash to come up with some new concepts and ideas - Legion was perhaps one of the most compulsive page-turners ever released by Black Library, and Prospero Burns helped solidify the Space Wolves as a far more believable (and important) concept. I think when Abnett has been given less breathing room, more clearly defined borders (for example concerning the rather poorly named 'Know No Fear' - book must start with treachery of Word Bearers, surprise attack, ends with rugged resistance) then I've tended to enjoy them less just because you know exactly where it begins and how it is going to end. Although, I realise that that is probably more of a subjective thing as I know a lot of people really enjoyed that book.

Anyway, while I don't have the enthusiasm for the Heresy series that I once had, for the most part I am still enjoying reading them. To be honest it hasn't been helped by 'The Primarchs' which I am struggling through at the moment, and is coming across as though it is some kind of collection of B-sides. - I thought 'The Mirror Crack'd', again aside from the crappy and slightly pretentious title (who is coming up with them?) features probably the worst story I have ever read of McNeil's, and the second story in the book was completely unremarkable - I've already forgotten the title in fact! Finally, I hope they don't pull too much of a 'Lost' and delve to deeply into various different tangents, as much as I enjoy them from time to time. I think the series could really do with a 'big episode', featuring the central characters in the story (Horus and the Emp), and helping to pull everything together towards a more conducive whole.

And finally, yes a real reason for the Heresy taking place. Has anyone else realised that we don't have one yet? And no, I'm not talking about the sword!

Panzerboy26 wrote:Just a few things off the top of my head for the things they've simply outright changed:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is apparently twins.

Horus was 'tricked' into betraying the Emperor, rather than just being a power hungry guy who proactively took an offer of power from Gods he didn't quite fully understand. Makes him a FAR weaker character in my book.

Fulgrim was apparently hollowed out and worn as a suit by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

Apparently the Emperor's big 'plan' was to steal the Eldar's homework and conquer the Webway so that it could be used by humans instead of Warp Travel... and the REAL reason the Emperor got mad at Magnus for using forbidden magicks to try and warn him about Horus' betrayal was that in doing so, he 'broke' the part of the Golden Throne that would give mankind access to it.

Alpharius was always a twin, Horus had been tricked by the chaos gods, and the Emperor was always trying to get into the webway.

When I started reading the first book of the HH, I was half tempted to put the book down and never read it again. By the end of the first, my opinion hadn't changed much. Since I bought the first two at once, I decided to read the second book and was glad I didn't stop. It was amazing.
Favorite was galaxy in flames, then flight of the Einstein, then Fulgrim, though Iv'e read the first 6 books before skipping to random parts of the series.