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 Beaviz81 wrote:
It's more an uneasy alliance between two religions following the same rough path. Like the Orthodox and Catholics during the Crusades. Merging them would have been catastrophic and the dissidents of Moirae failed to see that. They saw only the rationalizations and how both paths could be stronger, and could overcome the differences.

I'm talking about the political relationship but I did want to get into a religous analogy too. The isn't a pefect analogy for Mechanicum but The Ecclesiarchy are definately Space-Catholics. I believe Ecclesiarch actually means Pope irl. The Emperor is both Savior and God The best analogy for Mechanicum is Judaism. One, because it is an older religon in comparison to Christianity and because it is unique in that it is used to self identify once's religon and race.
However, Jews and Christians beleive in the same god but differ on who is the most Important prophet. I guess Terrrans believe The Emperor is God and Mechanicum worship a different god but agree The Emperor is The prophet. In that way they are a bit Islamic and The Emperor is like Mohamed. Like I said, not a perfect analogy.

I think we should stay away from IRL topics. I think we are looking at them through the lens of 40k rather than looking at 40k through the lens of real things. 40k is complicated but not nearly so complicated and nuanced as the history and politics of the UK or the Crusades.

 Manchu wrote:
I think we should stay away from IRL topics. I think we are looking at them through the lens of 40k rather than looking at 40k through the lens of real things. 40k is complicated but not nearly so complicated and nuanced as the history and politics of the UK or the Crusades.

You can stay away if you wish. 40K is well known to be heavily inspired by history and pop culture and many people like myself like to discuss those influences.

Oh sorry, I shouldn't have brought it in. I did it for comparison, nothing else.

Back to the topic, I find it a tad naive trying to merge the two into one, I guess the Moiran dissidents thought it was possible in a burst of over-optimism as stranger things has happened.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
You can stay away if you wish. 40K is well known to be heavily inspired by history and pop culture and many people like myself like to discuss those influences.

I don't think you are discussing the influences on 40k. I mean, how do you know what influenced the designers without doing some research? You should post an interview or article with Rick Priestly saying "X influenced me" if you want to talk about influences.

Instead, I think you are talking how these discussion on 40k have influenced YOU, influenced your perception of things like the Catholic Church. And to be honest, the comparisons you're making are clumsy and a bit insulting. The made-up term "Ecclesiarch" for example has never been used to describe an actual Christian bishop. It certainly doesn't "mean" or refer to the Bishop of Rome. Furthermore, the 40k idea of "Ecclesiarch," tied up with sentiments of totalitarianism, fanaticism, and cruelty, is not reflective of the actual history of the Catholic Church. I'm not saying there were not "bad guys" in these past two thousand years of Christianity. But the Ecclesiarchy is set up to be a cruelly totalitarian and fanatical institution. That doesn't have anything to do with the history of the Catholic Church and it's not only repugnant to say so but also downright ignorant.

I know you aren't really going for this kind of thing, not trying to be silly much less offensive. But that's what happens when we start to say "you know, the real life history of such-and-such is similar to 40k." Again, if you want to talk about what from the real world went into making 40k, well, maybe there's an article somewhere with John Blanche or Bryan Ansell or whoever. Dig into the web. Do the research. That is a cool topic. I mean, some of it seems pretty obvious -- they must have been influenced, for example, by the concept of the Dark Ages. But what I'm saying is, we can't turn around and say "since 40k was influenced by the Dark Ages, the Dark Ages must have been like what we find in 40k."


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 Beaviz81 wrote:
Back to the topic, I find it a tad naive trying to merge the two into one, I guess the Moiran dissidents thought it was possible in a burst of over-optimism as stranger things has happened.

KC made a great point about this. Maybe they didn't think they needed to do anything. Maybe there was no revolution planned at all. Maybe they just thought that the "natural" course of things, the destiny of the Imperium, the way it would inevitably work out is that the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy would merge or will in the future merge -- without anyone consciously lifting a finger to do it. (In a sense, this is kind of the historical context of the schism anyway -- the two empires of the Imperium clearly needed each other and the unifying force ended up being the Ecclesiarchy.) Imperial Armour Volume X doesn't tell us what the Moirae Schismatics wanted to do; it just tells us one aspect of what they believed. But again, that's not what is important. The Fabricator-General perceived their prophecies as a threat to the sovereignty of Mars (and therefore also the constitution of the Imperium) and purged them.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
You can stay away if you wish. 40K is well known to be heavily inspired by history and pop culture and many people like myself like to discuss those influences.

I don't think you are discussing the influences on 40k. I mean, how do you know what influenced the designers without doing some research? You should post an interview or article with Rick Priestly saying "X influenced me" if you want to talk about influences.

Instead, I think you are talking how these discussion on 40k have influenced YOU, influenced your perception of things like the Catholic Church. And to be honest, the comparisons you're making are clumsy and a bit insulting. The made-up term "Ecclesiarch" for example has never been used to describe an actual Christian bishop. It certainly doesn't "mean" or refer to the Bishop of Rome. Furthermore, the 40k idea of "Ecclesiarch," tied up with sentiments of totalitarianism, fanaticism, and cruelty, is not reflective of the actual history of the Catholic Church. I'm not saying there were not "bad guys" in these past two thousand years of Christianity. But the Ecclesiarchy is set up to be a cruelly totalitarian and fanatical institution. That doesn't have anything to do with the history of the Catholic Church and it's not only repugnant to say so but also downright ignorant.

It's quite the opposite, I didn't make any value judgments about The Ecclesiarchy or The Catholic Church. Your relationship with the Catholic Church and Warhammer caused you to take offense and get emotional. You are free to say X is not like X because of Y rather than just say shutup and you're ignorant.

I didn't say "shut up and you're ignorant." I clearly explained that you were making a false comparison, showing that X is not like X because of Y. In any case, the issue is not your lack of understanding of a historical subject but rather the idea that you can understand those subject better since you know some things about 40k. To continue with the example, you posted:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I believe Ecclesiarch actually means Pope irl.

Why would you think that? You didn't get this from any history book, that's for sure.

 Manchu wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Back to the topic, I find it a tad naive trying to merge the two into one, I guess the Moiran dissidents thought it was possible in a burst of over-optimism as stranger things has happened.

KC made a great point about this. Maybe they didn't think they needed to do anything. Maybe there was no revolution planned at all. Maybe they just thought that the "natural" course of things, the destiny of the Imperium, the way it would inevitably work out is that the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy would merge or will in the future merge -- without anyone consciously lifting a finger to do it. (In a sense, this is kind of the historical context of the schism anyway -- the two empires of the Imperium clearly needed each other and the unifying force ended up being the Ecclesiarchy.) Imperial Armour Volume X doesn't tell us what the Moirae Schismatics wanted to do; it just tells us one aspect of what they believed. But again, that's not what is important. The Fabricator-General perceived their prophecies as a threat to the sovereignty of Mars (and therefore also the constitution of the Imperium) and purged them.

That is an acceptable answer. I don't mind them being a bit naive. Then the Church rose yet again after having waned for a while. With waning I mean like ebb and flow. Not as you earlier mentioned the famous kitten. But still mighty but more like the Church now than then when later when Goge ruled and they seem to have been mightier than the Inquisition. I sort of regard the merging of the two religions as something not kosher in the mind of the more conservative members of either. Also my impression of AdMech and the Church is that they cooperate but are only partially kindred which was why I unfortunately dragged in some real life stuff, which I regret.

 Manchu wrote:
I didn't say "shut up and you're ignorant." I clearly explained that you were making a false comparison, showing that X is not like X because of Y. In any case, the issue is not your lack of understanding of a historical subject but rather the idea that you can understand those subject better since you know some things about 40k. To continue with the example, you posted:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I believe Ecclesiarch actually means Pope irl.

Why would you think that? You didn't get this from any history book, that's for sure.

That's fine but you did it in a overly defensive anf emotional way.

I thought I recalled reading it somewhere. That's why I said "I believe" rather than "It is". I wasn't sure. Obviously Ecclesiarchy isn't a word invented by GW. I believe it's only ever been used irl in reference to some organizational structure of the Catholic Church. I would call it a "Catholic word" but I think you'd take issue with that.

Ecclesiarchy is basically a state ruled by a clerics. There are many states that has been ruled by priests in the history. The Mayans and Aztecs f.ex.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
they seem to have been mightier than the Inquisition

That brings up a good question: what the heck was the Inquisition doing during M35 and M36?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Ecclesiarchy is basically a state ruled by a clerics. There are many states that has been ruled by priests in the history. The Mayans and Aztecs f.ex.

That's a theocracy. Iran is ruled by a Royal Family and a Theocracy(I saw what you did there Beaviz ). Anyway now we're proving Manchu's point by going completely off-topic.
I'm just saying the Ecclesiarchy is inspired by The Catholic Church but that dosn't mean they are equal in morality in any way. I'm talking about orgnanizationally. They even have Cardinals. Their garb is even a take on The Catholic Church. Pretty sure The Ecclesiarch has a giant pointy hat!

 Manchu wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
they seem to have been mightier than the Inquisition

That brings up a good question: what the heck was the Inquisition doing during M35 and M36?

Logic points to that the ebb and flow meant that the Ecclecliarchy and AdMech formed alliances to keep the Inquisition less relevant. That is my guess. I basically think of the IOM as divided into roughly three parts. And two of the parts are continuously keeping the third part down, like the Inquisition and AdMech is doing to the Ecclesliarchy in M42. It's my guessing, nothing more.


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Ecclesiarchy is basically a state ruled by a clerics. There are many states that has been ruled by priests in the history. The Mayans and Aztecs f.ex.

That's a theocracy. Iran is ruled by a Royal Family and a Theocracy(I saw what you did there Beaviz ). Anyway now we're proving Manchu's point by going completely off-topic.
I'm just saying the Ecclesiarchy is inspired by The Catholic Church but that dosn't mean they are equal in morality in any way. I'm talking about orgnanizationally. They even have Cardinals. Their garb is even a take on The Catholic Church. Pretty sure The Ecclesiarch has a giant pointy hat!

ecclesiarchy
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English
Noun

ecclesiarchy (plural ecclesiarchies)

(religion, politics) A government ruled by or in conjunction with a religion; a church-state.
Union of church and state.

From Wikipedia.

The better question is what does Ecclesiarchy mean in the context of 40k? Both Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Terra are "ecclesiarchies" in the sense of them "being governments ruled by or in conjunction with a religion." But THE Ecclesiarchy is something separate from both of them. It is not a government, except inasmuch as it manages its own business (the same way that a corporation is "a government"). Despite not being a government, it exerts a tremendous amount of influence -- including political pressue -- on the society of the Imperium (even including the AdMech). The answer, of course, is that it is a church. This doesn't seem like much of an insight until you realize that a church is not a government. This is the hierarchical organization principle I mentioned last page in the LONG post. The Ecclesiarchical perspective is a subset of the Terran perspective. This is why the Ecclesiarchy and Administratum were merged in M36 as opposed to, according to the Moirae "prophecies," the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Machine Cult.

Indeed, I sort of wonder as well. Both empires are ruled by clerics. I think there are often at least two clerics at the High Lords, and you can maybe say three if you count the Uber-Abess as well.

As for AdMech they seem to be a mixture of an evil company like Weyland-Yutani, mated with conservative priests and baptized something else. Basically I regard them as both religions and Evil Incorporated. They will do anything for profit and progress.

The Imperium is ruled by the High Lords of Terra: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/High_Lords_of_Terra of which The Ecclesiarch is a permanent member. There's no clerics on The High Lords.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Imperium is ruled by the High Lords of Terra: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/High_Lords_of_Terra of which The Ecclesiarch is a permanent member. There's no clerics on The High Lords.

So a Cardinal of the Holy Synod of Terra is not a cleric? Wow every dictionary in the world needs to update their wording of what a cleric is. I was certain it meant priest. And Abess obviously have no religious connection whatsoever. Wow that's quite cool to think about.

Sorry I didn't mean to be rude, but you walked into that one KC.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Imperium is ruled by the High Lords of Terra: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/High_Lords_of_Terra of which The Ecclesiarch is a permanent member. There's no clerics on The High Lords.

So a Cardinal of the Holy Synod of Terra is not a cleric? Wow every dictionary in the world needs to update their wording of what a cleric is. I was certain it meant priest. And Abess obviously have no religious connection whatsoever. Wow that's quite cool to think about.

Sorry I didn't mean to be rude, but you walked into that one KC.

Well certainly wikipedia doesn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy I don't see Pope on there anywhere (no seriously, I'm not saying wikipedia is a dictionary. Though it does say a Cardinal is not a cleric). I've never heard the Pope being refered to as a cleric. Maybe he does fit some dictionary defination, I'll let you provide that.

What is this "Abess" you speak of?

EDIT: Well I guess it does say The Pope is a Bishop of Rome and a Bishop is a cleric, so there ya go.

The Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas is the top dog of the Sororitas. They are clerical. And you can be glad you elected to scroll down to the Catholics KC, or I would have to beat that in with loveable lobotomy with a dirty stick. I guess you never were much for playing Rome or Medieval Total War. There the title (Bishop of Rome) is used very frequently.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas is the top dog of the Sororitas. They are clerical. And you can be glad you elected to scroll down to the Catholics KC, or I would have to beat that in with loveable lobotomy with a dirty stick. I guess you never were much for playing Rome or Medieval Total War. There the title (Bishop of Rome) is used very frequently.

The Abess has never actually been shown to have ever had a seat on the Council. That is more of a theory. One I don't subscribe to, I don't think she has ever sat on the council. It's an insignificant group and it would be like giving the Ecclesiarchy two seats.

No, I haven't played Rome Total War but even I will readily admit The Catholic Church and Ecclesiarchy aren't one-to-one anyway. I've just never really heard of anyone being refered to as a cleric in 40K so it just seems a little out of place. Anyways if by Cleric you mean someone who is part of the Governance of the Church then yes obviously The Ecclesiarch is one.

You are more right there than you know KC. Right now there seems to be only 11 High Lords. The 12th. an Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas was on the way there to take her seat, but disappeared in the warp. Of course speculating about the High Lords of Terra is a berserk button unwisely touched at any forum.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
You are more right there than you know KC. Right now there seems to be only 11 High Lords. The 12th. an Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas was on the way there to take her seat, but disappeared in the warp. Of course speculating about the High Lords of Terra is a berserk button unwisely touched at any forum.

I don't need to speculate. There are only 9 permanent members of which the abess is definately not one. The idea she could be one is pure speculation.

Also even by your definition (which you haven't actually stated I admit) she is not a clergyman anyway. She's just a soldier.

I remembered wrongly anyway. The Abbess disappeared on a pilgrimage. The Ecclesserial decree was to leave the seat open. So I guess there is some major tension between the Sororitas and the Ecclesary not yet explored due to that fact. But it can also be the law, until the girl is found. I often write things from memory. A weakness of mine. But indeed she is straddling the line between soldier and member of the clergy as a Sororita. That's the call of the more senior members. The younger less experienced is top trained religious fanatics who uses zeal as well as skill to survive. But now we are entering Lynata-territory. And majorly going off-topic. Which I'm sorry for, but it's typical of me, I rarely manages to maintain discussing just one subject for long.

As for my definition, I would never assume you to take it 100%, that would be just dull. Why the hell shall I argue with a mirror?

I don't think we have enough information to who is and who is not a cleric of the Ecclesiarchy. The way "cleric" is understood in IRL (modern) Catholicism is an ordained priest. Someone who is not an ordained priest can indeed be made a cardinal (although this never happens anymore). A person can also be a monk and not be an ordained priest. And, of course, nuns cannot be ordained priests as the priesthood is male-only. But none of these IRL definitions and rules necessarily apply to 40k.

That is true Manchu for the Catholic church. The Protestant church has female priests. Heck in my country we even had a female lesbian bishop. Rosemarie Køhn I believe her name was. If memory serves I think she was the first bishop at both things. I see no reason for not having female priests in the IOM, as despite all the negative traits associated with the empire. Racism and sexism seems almost totally absent.

I'm sure The Eccleisarchy is loaded with lesbian clergy! But no SoBs. They are not part of Church's command structure. They are servants of it.

It really does stand to reason that the Ecclesiarchy has no universal gender preferences regarding clergy. The Ecclesiarchy takes on a slightly different cast in every part of the Imperium. In some cultures, female-only priesthoods are probably the norm. It's a wide and varied galaxy.


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
They are not part of Church's command structure. They are servants of it.

They seem to be a religious order, like monks or nuns. And we don't know whether, like IRL Catholic monks, they can also be priests. Not enough info. You can say "they are the servants" but that's not necessarily answering the question.

The SoBs are supposed to be don't ask don't tell Army of The Church. I think having one be a Bishop or something wouod be a conflict of interest. The Adeptus Sororitas are just the Adeptus Sororitas and nothing else. They are pure in that way. This isn't a case of them being discriminated against, quite the opposite. Being involved in the heirarchy of The Church is beneath them.

Actually more than one Sister of Battle have joined the ranks of the Inquisition, but that's the Cardinal-promotion Manchu was on about. They might step out of being angry nuns, but then they won't come back.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Being involved in the heirarchy of The Church is beneath them.

Is this something from a GW source or your preferred way of looking at them? I honestly cannot remember any such sentiment from a GW source.


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 Beaviz81 wrote:
but that's the Cardinal-promotion Manchu was on about. They might step out of being angry nuns, but then they won't come back.

Huh?