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Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






wana10 wrote:Cherry-picking? Nonsense.

Pg 42, Codex Orks, says a squig may be released instead of shooting.

Pg 4, Codex Orks FAQ, clarifies this says that the squig release happens at the same time of shooting and that the tankbusta releasing the squig must have been legally allowed to shoot if he wishes to release a squig. You can not replace shooting with releasing if you could never shoot to start with.

A=shooting
B=squig releasing

Codex Orks says you can replace A with B
The FAQ says you can replace A with B but only if A was a legal option. How to determine if A is an option? Use the standard shooting rules. In the case of embarked orks that would be the passengers shooting from vehicles rules.

So how about you look at C?
"This follows the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles"
The ork FAQ explicitly tells you to use shooting rules if you are embarked on a vehicle, in which case Squigs can no longer be resolved at fliers, due to not being snap-fired.

By the way, anyone in on a Waaagh! to lynch the idiot who decided to make GW FAQs protected pdfs? You can't even search in them anymore for Gork's sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ostrakon wrote:
Jidmah wrote:If we are RAW-whoring


You mean, if we're reading the actual rules instead of applying what we think is RAI to every situation? Because there is a LOT of that going on in threads concerning what can and can't hit flyers.


I'm just saying that trying to claim RAI and questionable RAW in the same rule is hypocritical.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/08 20:25:53


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Richmond Va

We have to be careful about RAI concerning flyers though because as I have posted on other threads attempting to make rationalizations in the same way, there is a total of, the necrons codex, that concivably had RAI concerning flyers (Which has not been confirmed anyway). So because of this, regaurding flyers there is almost no RAI.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/08 20:33:48


My Overprotective Father wrote:Tyrants shooting emplaced weapons? A Hive Tyrant may be smarter than your average bug, but that still isint saying much

Pretre: Are repressors assault vehicles? If they are, I'm gonna need emergency pants.
n0t_u: No, but six can shoot out of it. Other than that it's a Rhino with a Heavy Flamer thrown on if I remember correctly.
Pretre: Thanks! I guess my pants are safe and clean after all.
 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal





Washington, USA

How did this "immune to anything but snap shots" cult get created so quickly? That's not what the book says. All shooting (without Skyfire) is resolved as snap shots.

"SHOTS resolved at Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots." page 81

Straight from the book. You have to be a mental contortionist to think this is protection against anything but snap shot attacks.


 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Richmond Va

Faf has a point.

My Overprotective Father wrote:Tyrants shooting emplaced weapons? A Hive Tyrant may be smarter than your average bug, but that still isint saying much

Pretre: Are repressors assault vehicles? If they are, I'm gonna need emergency pants.
n0t_u: No, but six can shoot out of it. Other than that it's a Rhino with a Heavy Flamer thrown on if I remember correctly.
Pretre: Thanks! I guess my pants are safe and clean after all.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Fafnir13 wrote:How did this "immune to anything but snap shots" cult get created so quickly? That's not what the book says. All shooting (without Skyfire) is resolved as snap shots.

"SHOTS resolved at Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots." page 81

Straight from the book. You have to be a mental contortionist to think this is protection against anything but snap shot attacks.


Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Faf has a point.


You are both missing me here.

There is no discussion about a walking tankbusta throwing a squig at a plane. It's not a shooting weapon, so per RAW not limited by the "Hard to hit" rules.

However, you are told by the FAQ to use the shooting rules for squigs when releasing them from inside a transport. Thus, per RAW, the "Hard to hit" rules are in effect, and you can not resolve them against fliers.

I was merely responding to the suggestion to bend RAW in the second case because from RAI they should work the same when embarked as disembarked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/08 21:11:30


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Richmond Va

I have little opinion on this as it stands (mostly b/c I dont have a dog in this fight) but I am pointing out that everyone needs to stop using RAI with flyers because there is absolutly no RAI concerning flyers. They are brand new in a brand new rulebook so any codex released 1/2+ years ago cannot possibly have RAI concerning flyers.

My Overprotective Father wrote:Tyrants shooting emplaced weapons? A Hive Tyrant may be smarter than your average bug, but that still isint saying much

Pretre: Are repressors assault vehicles? If they are, I'm gonna need emergency pants.
n0t_u: No, but six can shoot out of it. Other than that it's a Rhino with a Heavy Flamer thrown on if I remember correctly.
Pretre: Thanks! I guess my pants are safe and clean after all.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






... which was my point exactly

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Japan

Jidmah wrote:So how about you look at C?
"This follows the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles"
The ork FAQ explicitly tells you to use shooting rules if you are embarked on a vehicle, in which case Squigs can no longer be resolved at fliers, due to not being snap-fired.



I covered that in my reply.
The ork faq tells you to use the shooting rules to determine eligibility of the tankbusta to fire, which he must be able to before he can reliquish that ability to fire to release a squig instead.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






That's not what the rule says though. It says to follow the normal rules for passenger shooting from vehicles, which includes any part of shooting not replaced by either embarking rules or the bomb squigs.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Fell Caller - Child of Bragg







Fafnir13 wrote:How did this "immune to anything but snap shots" cult get created so quickly? That's not what the book says. All shooting (without Skyfire) is resolved as snap shots.

"SHOTS resolved at Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots." page 81

Straight from the book. You have to be a mental contortionist to think this is protection against anything but snap shot attacks.


Even as a Necron player with multiple flyers in my prospective lists, I can assure you it's almost certainly players who are putting flyers in their lists because they think they're functionally invincible except from fire by other flyers. Between this, the Mawloc, and the Death Ray, there is a nontrivial contingent of players who can have page 7 thrown in their face multiple times and still say "NOPE IT CAN'T BE FIRED AS A SNAP SHOT DOESN'T WORK"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ostrakon wrote:
Jidmah wrote:If we are RAW-whoring


You mean, if we're reading the actual rules instead of applying what we think is RAI to every situation? Because there is a LOT of that going on in threads concerning what can and can't hit flyers.


I'm just saying that trying to claim RAI and questionable RAW in the same rule is hypocritical.


Yeah, that was more directed at the thread in general than you in particular.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/08 23:01:36


Over 350 points of painted Trolls and Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Japan

Jidmah wrote:That's not what the rule says though. It says to follow the normal rules for passenger shooting from vehicles, which includes any part of shooting not replaced by either embarking rules or the bomb squigs.


The ambiguity comes from the use of the word "this" in the second question of FAQ pg 4 I'm assuming. I'm saying "this" is the ability of the tankbusta to fire a weapon, you're saying "this" is the releasing of the squig. Thanks to the wonderful qualities of the English language and Games-Workshop's inability to excise such ambiguity from their rules we are left in a state of contention.

But hey, at least GW is slightly better than Spartan Games in that regard.
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block



Great White North

I'd say "legit,but cheese" based on the "release a bomb squig instead of shooting" line and on a 2+ its "Gods speed little buddy, gods speed" time w/ a bunch of orks watching up in awe. I can see this getting protested hard though... not the flying squiq though, he's awesome. Secondly, it is pretty orky and makes sense in its own orky way. Squiq-kreig WAAC lists? Now we just need a "Haters gonna hate" pic with a.flying squig.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





Oregon, USA

http://www.moddb.com/groups/warhammer-40k-fans-group/images/bomb-squig

This just screams 'let it begin...' to me..

Just needs some wings

The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






"...as long as the releasing model wound have been able to fire a normal weapon. THIS follows the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles."
THIS either is the 'able to fire a normal weapon' OR resolving the squig attack.

Jidmah, do you believe that squigs, when embarked, roll to hit with BS, pick their target which must be the same as the unit, ect, as normal passengers shooting from vehicles? Or do squigs still have unique rules for resolution saying they work on a 2+, hit the nearest vehicle not necessarily the one the tank bustas shoot, ect. 'THIS' can indeed be interpreted both ways, but it has nothing to do with snap fire or flyers at that point (or even 6th ed, as it was the same in 5th right?), but of how to resolve the entire chain of bomb squig events. Lets forget the flyers bit for now until we reach a consensus on 'THIS.'
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Jidmah, do you believe that squigs, when embarked, roll to hit with BS, pick their target which must be the same as the unit, ect, as normal passengers shooting from vehicles? Or do squigs still have unique rules for resolution saying they work on a 2+, hit the nearest vehicle not necessarily the one the tank bustas shoot, ect.


I already answered that exact question in this thread. I'm sick of people not reading what I write and putting forth the exact same questions over and over again.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/10 07:15:15


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in za
Sister Oh-So Repentia



South Africa

DevianID wrote:"...as long as the releasing model wound have been able to fire a normal weapon. THIS follows the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles."
THIS either is the 'able to fire a normal weapon' OR resolving the squig attack.


Unfortunately, THIS can only mean the tankbuster being able to fire a normal weapon. The release of a bombsquig is neither a passenger on the vehicle, nor is it a shooting attack. Hence the only thing the phrase "THIS follows the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles" can refer to is the tankbuster itself (the unit that is a passenger and checking its ability to shoot). Hence the bombsquig can be released provided the embarked unit can fire a normal weapon, following the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles.

Being a good bad guy is like being a photographer, you have to wait for the right moment. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Sure, but wouldn't the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles also include the normal rules for shooting at all?

If no, why not?

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Richmond Va

Because there are some weapons in the 40k universe that fall into a category of their own. They are not ashooting wepaons, yet they are not cc weapons, or other models. Bomb Squigs are a unique case.

My Overprotective Father wrote:Tyrants shooting emplaced weapons? A Hive Tyrant may be smarter than your average bug, but that still isint saying much

Pretre: Are repressors assault vehicles? If they are, I'm gonna need emergency pants.
n0t_u: No, but six can shoot out of it. Other than that it's a Rhino with a Heavy Flamer thrown on if I remember correctly.
Pretre: Thanks! I guess my pants are safe and clean after all.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Because there are some weapons in the 40k universe that fall into a category of their own. They are not ashooting wepaons, yet they are not cc weapons, or other models. Bomb Squigs are a unique case.

That's not an answer to my question.

I was asking why are we ignoring shooting rules when we are told to follow rules for passengers shooting.
Or, to rephrase that: Why are "passengers shooting" and "shooting" distinct rules, as opposed to "shooting" being part of "passengers shooting".

Besides, bomb squigs are not weapons, they do not fit the definition given in the rulebook. Nothing prevents you from applying shooting rules to something that's not a weapon. For example, PSAs like JotWW.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Japan

Jidmah wrote:
That's not an answer to my question.

I was asking why are we ignoring shooting rules when we are told to follow rules for passengers shooting.
Or, to rephrase that: Why are "passengers shooting" and "shooting" distinct rules, as opposed to "shooting" being part of "passengers shooting".


Shooting rules are not ignored. Passengers shooting is a sub-category of shooting. The book says, "here are the rules for shooting, if the models are embarked here are additional rules that may affect their ability to shoot." (obviously not a direct quote from the rulebook)
the question references foot tankbustas and embarked tankbustas and so the answer says that tankbustas must be able to shoot and, if they are embarked, they must additionally meet the passenger shooting requirements. to determine the eligibility of the embarked tankbustas shooting follow the regular shooting rules for passengers.

note that the question also asks about pinned tankbustas. to determine the ability of pinned tankbustas shooting one would look at the regular shooting rules and not need to venture into the sub-rules for shooting from a vehicle.

all normal rules for shooting(and occasionally shooting sub-category-rules such as passenger shooting) are applied to determine if the tankbustas have a shot to swap for squig releasing, be that normal shooting, shooting while pinned or in combat, or shooting from a vehicle.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I'd like a direct quote from the rulebook saying that though.
Anything else is not going to add anything to the discussion.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer






Best discussion in the history of discussions. Ever.

Black Templars WIP 2k
Xynovyth Kadruls Kabal of the shattered soul-2500

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Japan

A direct quote saying that shooting from a vehicle is a sub-category of shooting and follows all of the same rules as regular shooting except for the added restriction of needing a firepoint?

Here we go, the only rules for shooting under the vehicle section deal with determining who can fire,

Pg 78, "FIRE POINTS A Transport might have a number of Fire Points defined in its entry. A Fire Point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle can fire shooting weapons
Unless specified differently in the vehicle's entry, a single passenger can fire out of each Fire Point and the other transported models cannot fire. Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire Point itself."

Now, seeing as pg 78 doesn't have all of the other shooting rules like the BS chart, or the roll to wound chart, or the new rules about wound pools, etc etc etc, is it safe to say that beyond using pg 78 to determine who in the vehicle can shoot we can return to pg 12, "The Shooting Phase"?

edit* Under "The Shooting Phase" section (pg 12) it has a section titled "Who Can Shoot?" (also pg12)

"Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
. Their unit is locked in close cornbat with the foe.
. Their unit is running (see page l4).
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot - this is explained thoroughly when it occurs. "

Passengers and fire points would be one of those game/special rules affecting who can shoot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/11 07:52:59


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






well it was a nice couple months punting squigs at fliers but is appears gw has FAQ'd that a bomb squig cannot hit a zooming flier (so you can hit hover mode ones still which i find amusing still)

also we orks can't grabba claw fliers anymore it was nice driving up to them grabbign them and having the person try to argue that they could not... then fail and not be able to move so blow up

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570048a_Orks_v1.1.pdf

Q: Can a bomb squig target a Zooming Flyer if it’s the nearest vehicle?
(p42)
A: No.

Q: Can Ork boarding planks, grabbin’ klaws and wreckin’ balls target
Zooming Flyers? (p93)
A: No.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/09 16:53:03


10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in bg
Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

I will still let the guy who made a winged squig model do it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/09 17:18:02



Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 G00fySmiley wrote:
well it was a nice couple months punting squigs at fliers but is appears gw has FAQ'd that a bomb squig cannot hit a zooming flier (so you can hit hover mode ones still which i find amusing still)

also we orks can't grabba claw fliers anymore it was nice driving up to them grabbign them and having the person try to argue that they could not... then fail and not be able to move so blow up

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570048a_Orks_v1.1.pdf

Q: Can a bomb squig target a Zooming Flyer if it’s the nearest vehicle?
(p42)
A: No.

Q: Can Ork boarding planks, grabbin’ klaws and wreckin’ balls target
Zooming Flyers? (p93)
A: No.

Did you expect the FAQ to rule otherwise?

I did not.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





 HoverBoy wrote:
I will still let the guy who made a winged squig model do it
Or if they put rockets on the squig. Then they would get one free attempt.

3200 points > 5400 points
2500 points 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Richmond Va

Honestly I didnt know what to expect from the FAQ as these are orks we are tlaking about. They do the weirdest of shiz.

My Overprotective Father wrote:Tyrants shooting emplaced weapons? A Hive Tyrant may be smarter than your average bug, but that still isint saying much

Pretre: Are repressors assault vehicles? If they are, I'm gonna need emergency pants.
n0t_u: No, but six can shoot out of it. Other than that it's a Rhino with a Heavy Flamer thrown on if I remember correctly.
Pretre: Thanks! I guess my pants are safe and clean after all.
 
   
 
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