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redkeyboard wrote:

Dark Haemonculus wrote:Youve got to set up at least 50% of your army on the table. So to make this legal you'd have to drop a night scythe squad to get in 3 units. However then if those 3 units die, you lose. Hardly unbeatable.

I pointed this out and I think most ignored me. Even if he starts all of the warriors on the table and the lord then that's still less than 50% being 7 of of his 16 units. As for the units and transports being 1 unit I believe that is for when they are deployed inside their transport and outside of it it is 2 units. I could be wrong so If i am please correct me on the matter.

So, anything that has to start in reserves does not count towards this total. So, this makes it that only 1 unit in his army does not have to start in reserves. Half of 1 (rounded up) is oh wait, what was it again? Oh yeah, 1. Having the lord on the table fulfills this requirement.

That said, this is nowhere near an auto-win army. Anything that can move quickly can take out that lord. My army counter for that? Easiest would be some Ravenwing bikes using their scout move and then driving over and shooting him up, along with their MM attack bike running up alongside. Maybe throw in a terminator squad with CML and a couple of storm bolters deep striking somewhere nearby(yes, on turn one, deathwing assault). A landspeeder with typhoons and either HB or MM would also do well to take out that lord.
All this is from an outdated, underpowered army.
Now think about it for some of the armies with more up-to-date options. Solid army if you are fighting bland forces, but definitely far from an auto-win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, to the people saying that you'll be getting all those scythes in right away, if your dice are average, you will have 6 out turn 2, 2 more turn 3, and the last on turn 4. Poor rolling, and you could be trying to hide that lord for 3 turns with no backup.

Red_Lives wrote:
being only 24" range on a flyer isn't an issue at all. Worst comes to worse i can move "36 and still fire up to 4 weapons.

Don't forget about the jink save too. So anything shooting at me needs 6s to hit and i still get a 5+ save.

Looks like a good list.

Though I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but Flyers technically don't have Jink.
They have Evade.

The way that works is if the flyer is hit, you then have to choose to Evade, at which point it gains Jink, but as a drawback it can only fire Snap Shots next turn

That could really mitigate your damage output on subsequent turns.

9x Flyers is definitely brutal, but as pointed out the list requires some finagling . The 9x Flyers have to start in reserve, but are not counted against the reserve limits on pg 124. You have the Lord, and 6x Warriors. So you'd need to drop Bastion + Lord + 2x Warriors. Unless, and I'm unsure about this, the fortification is counted as a "unit". So you couldn't choose to embark at least 2x units in their transport and then leave them in reserve.

So turn 1 you huddle as much as you can behind the Bastion.
Turn 2 you come in with 6x Flyers (usually)
Turn 3 start laying the smack down

Hmmmm against an IG blob army with 3+ TL AC per blob I could see it struggling to dent the blobs enough to prevent the return fire.
3x 30 man blobs w/ GL&AC (+3x Commisar + 3x PCS w/ GL&AC) is only 825pts
Very interesting! GLHF!
You should post updates on how the list does!

IMO pure Flyers aren't as powerful as Flyers w/ ground support.

At 2k, I play 5x5 Teslamortals+Stormtek in Scythes, 3x ABarge, Orikan, Overlord w/ trimmings, and 50 Shoota boyz + a KFF Mek.

Also, Green tide is hardly a "hard counter" to Flyers, as it will struggle against a good Scythe army.

Take my list for example:

One Night Scythe = 4 shots, 5,3333 hits, 4,4444 wounds, 2,96 Orks dead (assuming 5+ KFF or cover). x5 = 14,8 dead

5x Immortals = 5 shots, 5 hits, 3,3333 hits, 2,2222 dead. x5 = 11,111 dead

50x shoota boyz = 100 shots, 33,3333 hits, 16,6666 wounds, 11,111 dead

ABarge = 2,96 dead (TDestructor) + 2 shots, 2 hits, 1,6666 wounds, 1,1111 + 2,96 = 4,07. x3 = 12,21 dead

Altogether that's 49,232 Orks dead. In one turn. I left out the Voltaic staffs as then I'm at 12", and that's not good. Admittedly, some of the Shoota boyz will be dead, some of the ABarges might have died to Loota fire etc, but the Immortals+Scythes will always be able to deliver their Alphastrike. Also, against Horde Orks, you Flyers will easily be able to acquire targets, simply due to the fact that there are so many models on the table.

nolzur wrote:[
So, anything that has to start in reserves does not count towards this total. So, this makes it that only 1 unit in his army does not have to start in reserves. Half of 1 (rounded up) is oh wait, what was it again? Oh yeah, 1. Having the lord on the table fulfills this requirement.

Um, where are you getting 1x unit from?
He has 6x units of warriors that "can be deployed in Transport vehicles if you wish"
That's 7x units

However, the wording is actually
"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them in Reserves to arrive later"

He's got to deploy at least 3x units on the table, but all of the Flyers can start in reserve.

Also, I don't see how you are leaving that many units in reserve. The reserve rule that allows you to leave half your army in reserve (rounding up) clearly states that models that must start the game in reserve are not counted. So Flyers don't count. But if you are embarked on your Flyer, how are you not voluntarily entering reserves? Nowhere does it say that if your Ded. transport is in reserve, you have to be in it. Meaning that if you are in reserve, in your Transport, you have chosen to enter reserve.

At least that's how I see it. If someone can prove me wrong, please do, as it would make my Scythes even more OP

Jabbdo wrote:Also, I don't see how you are leaving that many units in reserve. The reserve rule that allows you to leave half your army in reserve (rounding up) clearly states that models that must start the game in reserve are not counted. So Flyers don't count. But if you are embarked on your Flyer, how are you not voluntarily entering reserves? Nowhere does it say that if your Ded. transport is in reserve, you have to be in it. Meaning that if you are in reserve, in your Transport, you have chosen to enter reserve.

At least that's how I see it. If someone can prove me wrong, please do, as it would make my Scythes even more OP

This.

I quoted the rules above.

Ricter wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:...what hard counter? One Ork list? Seems like that is a great way to stomp at a tourney, especially if well played. Most of the metagame will struggle with a proper Scythe spam list.

You guys are saying the same thing. He's just criticizing the "auto-win" hyperbole because there are lists that this army will not beat automatically.

Ahhh the internet. How I loathe thee.

It's not a good list, in my opinion, if it can't deal with common builds for tournament play. I know Horde Orks were played at major tournaments in 5th and with No Retreat wounds going away (despite overwatch, front line casualty removal...etc) I don't see Horde Orks going away in 6th.

At 2k the story changes, as Orks scale up poorly. And I agree that a combined arms list is stronger than a pure flyer list.

Jabbdo wrote:IMO pure Flyers aren't as powerful as Flyers w/ ground support.

At 2k, I play 5x5 Teslamortals+Stormtek in Scythes, 3x ABarge, Orikan, Overlord w/ trimmings, and 50 Shoota boyz + a KFF Mek.

Also, Green tide is hardly a "hard counter" to Flyers, as it will struggle against a good Scythe army.

Take my list for example:

One Night Scythe = 4 shots, 5,3333 hits, 4,4444 wounds, 2,96 Orks dead (assuming 5+ KFF or cover). x5 = 14,8 dead

5x Immortals = 5 shots, 5 hits, 3,3333 hits, 2,2222 dead. x5 = 11,111 dead

50x shoota boyz = 100 shots, 33,3333 hits, 16,6666 wounds, 11,111 dead

ABarge = 2,96 dead (TDestructor) + 2 shots, 2 hits, 1,6666 wounds, 1,1111 + 2,96 = 4,07. x3 = 12,21 dead

Altogether that's 49,232 Orks dead. In one turn. I left out the Voltaic staffs as then I'm at 12", and that's not good. Admittedly, some of the Shoota boyz will be dead, some of the ABarges might have died to Loota fire etc, but the Immortals+Scythes will always be able to deliver their Alphastrike. Also, against Horde Orks, you Flyers will easily be able to acquire targets, simply due to the fact that there are so many models on the table.

That's more than a bit misleading... first, you're assuming nearly everything in range, in ideal range at that. You're also assuming all of your fliers will be on the board at the same time, that you'll have LOS, that they won't have KFF or cover saves, etc. If you give that assumption to nearly any army their odds against Orks are pretty good.

I'm not saying your army can't handle them... but that number is pretty meaningless.

Ricter wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:IMO pure Flyers aren't as powerful as Flyers w/ ground support.

At 2k, I play 5x5 Teslamortals+Stormtek in Scythes, 3x ABarge, Orikan, Overlord w/ trimmings, and 50 Shoota boyz + a KFF Mek.

Also, Green tide is hardly a "hard counter" to Flyers, as it will struggle against a good Scythe army.

Take my list for example:

One Night Scythe = 4 shots, 5,3333 hits, 4,4444 wounds, 2,96 Orks dead (assuming 5+ KFF or cover). x5 = 14,8 dead

5x Immortals = 5 shots, 5 hits, 3,3333 hits, 2,2222 dead. x5 = 11,111 dead

50x shoota boyz = 100 shots, 33,3333 hits, 16,6666 wounds, 11,111 dead

ABarge = 2,96 dead (TDestructor) + 2 shots, 2 hits, 1,6666 wounds, 1,1111 + 2,96 = 4,07. x3 = 12,21 dead

Altogether that's 49,232 Orks dead. In one turn. I left out the Voltaic staffs as then I'm at 12", and that's not good. Admittedly, some of the Shoota boyz will be dead, some of the ABarges might have died to Loota fire etc, but the Immortals+Scythes will always be able to deliver their Alphastrike. Also, against Horde Orks, you Flyers will easily be able to acquire targets, simply due to the fact that there are so many models on the table.

That's more than a bit misleading... first, you're assuming nearly everything in range, in ideal range at that. You're also assuming all of your fliers will be on the board at the same time, that you'll have LOS, that they won't have KFF or cover saves, etc. If you give that assumption to nearly any army their odds against Orks are pretty good.

I'm not saying your army can't handle them... but that number is pretty meaningless.

As I said, some of the Shoota boyz will be dead, as some of the ABarges might be. With rerolls on my Flyers reserve rolls, I'll have 4,444 Scythes coming in on average on t2, so 4. When they do come in, against Horde Orks it really shouldn't be hard to maneuver them in such a way that you're almost always getting to shoot for 2 (max 3) turns before having to fly off again. In the numbers I did assume they had a 5+ from either KFF or cover (if its just cover it can be focus fired against, though).

I was just saying, as an average damage output if I get everything to shoot, that I can expect to kill around 50 Orks, after casualties/crap reserve rolls etc, but also taking into account possible Focus fire and TDestructor Arcs, I'd still put that number around ~40 on t2 (which is when my Flyers start coming in), which isn't an irrelevant amount.

Any army can easily blow up your bastion because they can be shot if your not in them. I don`t know why you think they cant. Then your lord will be killed and you`ve lost. You will obviously get resurrection but that means you leaving your chances to a 50/50 role (presuming you have a res orb). And so you are actually going to loose 50% of games. which means you wont be winning ANY tournaments.

As somebody posted earlier I would like to reiterate, let us know how this list does at a tourney. I have read some reports from european tourneys and from what I have learned one of the new tourney lists that has become popular is guard spam, aegis defence line, quad guns, plenty of tank spam, and an allied force that offers heavy hitters with a possible deep strike bonus. As your flyers enter there are plenty of units which can fire at them, you have to angle your flyers toward one edge, and are flying into a crapstorm of return fire. With the option of a deepstriking ally your lord is in at least a little danger without any sort of backup. Just my 2 cents, something to think on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS77v_jx5gU
6th Edition Necron Air Force VS Missile Wolves (2k lists)

WARNING: This is a very "friendly" game and it's kind of a joke due to the fact that they have a "1 gallon challenge" in the middle of the game where they try to drink an entire gallon of milk before the game ends. However, if you can get through the kidding around, it effectively shows how strong the 9 flying circus list is.

I find that you can theory craft A LOT about a list and what it comes down to it actually playing it and how lucky of rolls you get. You can have an amazing list and lose every game because of (bad) luck. Or you can have any amazing list (written up) but never know how good it is until you play with the list on the board. This video shows exactly how 9 flyers work. It is effective. Play with the list or against it before trying to shut down the OP's list.

Jake Hartley wrote:
Any army can easily blow up your bastion because they can be shot if your not in them. I don`t know why you think they cant. .

I also have this question. If there is a rule that disallows you from firing at an empty bastion I would love to know. Otherwise me DE could potentially blow up the bastion with lances, kill the lord with lance/splinter fire, and turbo boost reavers on top of his body, disallowing the WBB roll.

On a side note. If you table someone with reserves on the Top of turn 2, they still get an oppurtunity to roll for their reserves. Found that out when I tabled a nid player and he still had some Ymrgals left.

This list sucks. The flyers will come in sporadically and make it tough to focus fire on specific targets due to their movement restrictions. Horde armies WILL laugh at you. Look at tournament results and see why people are bringing massed MEQ + Guard blobs, it literally hard-counters lists like these. You will also weep when you run into a Guard player bringing 3 Vendettas and a much, much greater foot presence than you.

I thought by now all the noobs who thought this was a good list would be gone? If you want to run something like this, take 18 Wraiths and then fit in as many Flyers and Anni Barges as possible, that is a scary list.

THREADOMANCY!!!!!

origional post date 7/10

Jake Hartley Rezed the thread.

Everyone knows the autowin army these days has 3 helldrakes then necron flyer support. DUH!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jake Hartley wrote:
Any army can easily blow up your bastion because they can be shot if your not in them. I don`t know why you think they cant. Then your lord will be killed and you`ve lost. You will obviously get resurrection but that means you leaving your chances to a 50/50 role (presuming you have a res orb). And so you are actually going to loose 50% of games. which means you wont be winning ANY tournaments.

On a side note i'm fairly certain the rules don't allow you to shoot at an un occupied building (which an empty bastion is) the rules on page 93 only allow you to attack an occupied building not an empty one.

This is a common list in our area at the moment, either that or supported by a load of orks 30-60 usually... You know this same tactic could also be used by Space marines or even orks, its a good way to have an edge with flyers, difference is that as a nid player, this one of the 3 (SM, Ork, Crons) is the weakest as Tesla doesn't seem as effective against AV 3+ T6 6W FNP'd MC spams... when you have over 120 free spawnlings a game, flyers just get ignored... Also people will not want to play you after a whilst...

major_payne wrote:
This is a common list in our area at the moment, either that or supported by a load of orks 30-60 usually... You know this same tactic could also be used by Space marines or even orks, its a good way to have an edge with flyers, difference is that as a nid player, this one of the 3 (SM, Ork, Crons) is the weakest as Tesla doesn't seem as effective against AV 3+ T6 6W FNP'd MC spams... when you have over 120 free spawnlings a game, flyers just get ignored... Also people will not want to play you after a whilst...

This. I played a list pretty close to this, it had 9 flyers, but more warriors, Imhotek and 10 immortals. This army is low damage output for AP weapons. Fine against tanks, not against my bugs. I killed one flyer, and won handily anyway, because Horde lists just dont care about this army. At all.

So in my expieriance a Necron army is quite versityle. However that being said you need diversity to really shine. Spaming flyers does not create the synergy needed to win in most situations. Now a flyer spam is not in the least bit an undefeatable army however it is no way a bad army. I would like to point out though that an experianced player can take complete advantage of the fact that you are using flyers and only flyers. whether it be forcing you to move in a specific direction through unit placement or preventing you from shooting at them through unit placement thier are significant ways to prevent you from using the full fire power of your air-force. Now that being said in most cases Air is used to support your ground forces which creates a synergy.... so why not use ground to and support with which imo gives you a greater advantage. I have won 2 tournaments at my local gaming store as Necrons and as one of 2 necron players that are fairly experianced i see nothing but flyers and it makes me sad. The Necron scythes are paper thin and easy to knock out of the sky with just about any weapon when a hit is made and the Jink save can only protect you so many times before a shot is let through. any weapon at str 5 or higher can do some kind of damage to them. Now a usual list i play at around those points has 3 Annihilations barges for Flyer spam, as well as a fortification of some kind, most of the time being an Aegis line. With those things i can do a serious amount of damage. So in defence of using those flyers you will more then likly get the first shots off maybe dealing some damage to my barges but with Armour 13 you tesla weapons are only going to glance on 6's yes you have a lot of shots and lets be realistic you may very well take them out with your shooting but!!! knowing that your going to get most if not all your Flyers in on T2 i can hide them in terrain or do some thing to prevent you from taking out them all. lets say i succeeding in doing so now i have 3 twin linked weapons with 4 shots base a piece which on average leads to 1.3 or so hits per barge which makes that actually 9 hits with tesla rules. 3 per flyer and 50% of the time i am glancing or penitrating making 1-2 hull points and a possible damaging effect then i still have that quad gun which is more then likely pealing a flyer out of the sky ( i have never not killed a flyer with one) so that is 1-4 flyers gone and 4 groups of your necron warrior that have to come in from reserve meaning that most of your force is just going to be lining up for the slaughter as i pick it apart a few things at a time. Now all this is fine and dandy while it written heee but again its all about the dice and how many sguigs we have feed them in order to gain the dice gods favor, so its all up to you how you play your army but in my experiance Flyers just aren't all that great when used like this.

As a total recap of my points Flyer Spam makes your opponent move more strategically, it makes things a bit risky for you to start as if you lose your lord on the board before anything else comes in you lose..., your enemy is going to have an easyer time with target priority when not everything is coming onto the board at the same time, (essencially bottle necking your army) although you have jink and the hard to hit rules your still going to be hit, and the scythes are also paper thin and don't need much to pick apart.

So unfortunetly i don't feel as though this is an unbeatable list however unless fighting an experianced player(or a player who just doesn't have a list prepared for something like this) people will have a difficult time thinking about how to deal with an army they have a rough time hitting.

Guys it was thread necromancy please stop commenting.