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Kroothawk wrote:In other words, Warhammer Fantasy is shrinking, the old army book concept will go for combined-army-list-update books.


BTW, why do Harry and Hastings have to post that much when I am too tired to actually understand it all.

Fun fact: Avian started to attack the rumours by Harry and Hastings now, as there are not many rumour posters left on Warseer.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. But yes, GW has made it nearly non-viable for most people to start new fantasy armies from scratch, so this sounds like a good idea (from their perspective) to make it possible for people to start armies / play more easily.

Personally, I am not turned off by it. The opportunity to field WoC / daemons / beastmen together is certainly kind of cool, and actually more like how things "used to be", before everything got split up (ironically, also in an attempt to make money!).

So, I am intrigued

Okay, so...for those of us too drained to make sense of that long post...they're churning out the single books now, but then they'll release combined books that bring in units from multiple different armies together, making for better alliance options. Meaning...after beasts, WoC, and DoC are all released (now-ish), they may make a Chaos book that adds units that any of the three could take? And a similar book for Empire, Dwarves and HElves, or a book for Drucchi, Rats and VC? Am I getting the jist of it?

Sounds about right

An unspecified number of combined armies books, meaning more regular updates, and less balance issues because of that (although 'allies' could bring in their own balance nightmanes)

Fewer new kits per army when they do get a release, but much more regular

Intriuging rumours. I hope they update as many books as possible before 9th to potentially have an alternative in case the changes suck in the end. I like the current edition and style of books a lot, it is just too friggin expensive for me to start all the armies I´d like to. ^^

"Forces of Good" vs. "Forces of Destruction".

Now Deamons have a shot against BoTWD, go buy new plastic kits!

I really like the sound of those rumours. Yes, it could potentially lead to Empire/LM/DE threesomes, if they just go haywire with the allies chart, but at the same time having a legitimate way of fielding a proper Chaos horde, or a vintage Empire-with-Dwarf-mercs force is something I'd look to.

Necromancers.....


The more things change, the more they go back to what worked in the first place.

Sounds like all is not well in the ivory tower.

I'd love to combine the fine infantry of the Empire with the reckless awesome of Bret cavalry....

Years ago there existed an alliance between Elves and Man, we are here to honor that allegiance...

I think GW got their games mixed up...

This sounds odd. I was beginning to look at getting back into WHFB with a mate of mine, as we started on it back in the day. Now with big changes afoot... I dunno.

Might just get Island of Blood and ignore any new rules that turn up beyond that, just get our friends to join us at that level.

Well, some logical groupings from a fluff novice:
Beastmen, Daemons, Warriors of Chaos- Hordes of Chaos
Bretonnians, Wood Elves- Forest Dwellers
Empire, Dwarves- Central Powers
Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts- Undead
Lizardmen, High Elves- Blessed by the Old Ones
Orcs and Goblins, Ogres, Skaven- Barbarians and Savages

Dark Elves are sort of odd ones out. If they weren't mortal enemies of the High Elves, you could put them in that book and make it possibly 5 books.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Well, some logical groupings from a fluff novice:
Beastmen, Daemons, Warriors of Chaos- Hordes of Chaos
Bretonnians, Wood Elves- Forest Dwellers
Empire, Dwarves- Central Powers
Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts- Undead
Lizardmen, High Elves- Blessed by the Old Ones
Orcs and Goblins, Ogres, Skaven- Barbarians and Savages

Dark Elves are sort of odd ones out. If they weren't mortal enemies of the High Elves, you could put them in that book and make it possibly 5 books.

OF course it is interesting that two of these have already happened. We used to have a combined Chaos book, and we used to have an Undead book.

I would probabably do the following changes though:

HE, WE, DE: They are all from a shared ancestry.
Empire/Bretonia/Dwarfs
O&G, Ogres, Skaven, Lizardmen.

That would put us at 5 books total?

Sounds kind of like a regress to 3rd ed and a Warhammer Armies style book. Sounds interesting.

Well, I will not buy an army book with stuff I don't need, but thankfully, others will do and share their wealth on the internet, which I will gladly accept.

Plus, as we see in 40k, allies is a horrible idea from balance point of view. Necron + GK allies represent.

I'm not into it, but I can see why they are doing it.

I think DE would not go with HE.

I think they'd likely end up with Skaven, Orcs, Ogres.

So, by saying "Warhammer Fantasy is shrinking" does that mean game size is going down? Because I'd be very happy if that was the case. I love pushing around blocks of 80 Night Goblins, but I can't afford that any more.

~Tim?

The wheel turns...

I am not horrified by this, I am interested by it.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
So, by saying "Warhammer Fantasy is shrinking" does that mean game size is going down? Because I'd be very happy if that was the case. I love pushing around blocks of 80 Night Goblins, but I can't afford that any more.

~Tim?

No, they're saying that WFB is shrinking in market share either in relation to 40k or perhaps in relation to everything that isn't WFB.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
So, by saying "Warhammer Fantasy is shrinking" does that mean game size is going down? Because I'd be very happy if that was the case. I love pushing around blocks of 80 Night Goblins, but I can't afford that any more.

~Tim?

No, they're saying that WFB is shrinking in market share either in relation to 40k or perhaps in relation to everything that isn't WFB.

Or in terms of profit per pound invested in it (tho it clearly is loosing market share too at least in the USA)

GW is guilty of creating a self fulfilling prophecy with Fantasy Battle.

As time has gone on and they have pushed and pushed 40k and marines in general, they have neglected the fantasy game and it has been left to drift in terms of updates and vigor. It's also now absolutely a victim of the price of the models and the sheer size of army you are expected to build.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
GW is guilty of creating a self fulfilling prophecy with Fantasy Battle.

As time has gone on and they have pushed and pushed 40k and marines in general, they have neglected the fantasy game and it has been left to drift in terms of updates and vigor. It's also now absolutely a victim of the price of the models and the sheer size of army you are expected to build.

This.

Like, how many guys is best in a Skavenslaves unit? And how many points are they? It's quite ridiculous. Thank goodness for overpriced glade guard

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
GW is guilty of creating a self fulfilling prophecy with Fantasy Battle.

As time has gone on and they have pushed and pushed 40k and marines in general, they have neglected the fantasy game and it has been left to drift in terms of updates and vigor. It's also now absolutely a victim of the price of the models and the sheer size of army you are expected to build.

Not to be conspiratorial, but there also is the issue that GW appears to be making increasing efforts to only support their lines with models that are more strongly protectable from an IP standpoint. Fantasy is the most vulnerable to this (compared to the various 40k lines): everything is just so derivative, at least on the level of the troops.

Elven spear-men or archers are so generic that anyone can make such things (and many companies do); note how many direct competitors there are for fantasy troops compared to 40k offerings. One suspects that this is a motivator for GW: why, after all, should they spend money updating painfully out of date troop boxes when they can be undercut?

By contrast, big monsters and fantastical war machines are far more distinctive, and thus far more difficult to provide alternatives for.

 RiTides wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:In other words, Warhammer Fantasy is shrinking, the old army book concept will go for combined-army-list-update books.


BTW, why do Harry and Hastings have to post that much when I am too tired to actually understand it all.

Fun fact: Avian started to attack the rumours by Harry and Hastings now, as there are not many rumour posters left on Warseer.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. But yes, GW has made it nearly non-viable for most people to start new fantasy armies from scratch, so this sounds like a good idea (from their perspective) to make it possible for people to start armies / play more easily.

Arguably, the biggest thing making "starting new Fantasy armies from scratch" difficult is the fact that the "starter" packages in the form of the Battalions are not done very well. They're restrictive and filled with useless crap or outdated models which make them a far less attractive option than 40k or swapping to other games.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The days of the "Starter Box" with two different factions are done. Any kind of "starter" package needs to be carefully looked at and revised in such a way that the starter box does not become what people will buy to create the bulk of their army.
High Elves was a perfect chance to go this route with a brand new battalion using the Lothern Sea Guard models from the Island of Blood box as the bulk of the battalion, with a Repeater Bolt Thrower and a few other units added for good measure.

But no. They just repackaged the same battalion and completely ignored the opportunity for something which could have gone great.

So, I am intrigued

About right on my part as well.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I can't wrap my head around how it's going to work...

a) armies will lose options in order to fit them into one army book

b) the army books will be huge

c) the army books will ditch the fluff and just go for army lists with as many special rules as possible covered by the core rule book

d) the army books will be stripped down to basics with separate expansion books released that contain choices available to a range of armies

This could go anywhere...

 Buzzsaw wrote:
By contrast, big monsters and fantastical war machines are far more distinctive, and thus far more difficult to provide alternatives for.

I've thought about this, too, and it comes into play for Warhammer Forge as well- there are a lot more alternatives to some of the things they could be making (and are thus not making).

However, with fantasy if you only have new big monstery kits and old terrible core models, the game won't do well. Particularly when it's those core models you're supposed to buy hundreds of.

Here's hoping they've thought of a way to revamp it for the better

The start up cost for Fantasy is absolutely horrendous! No wonder no one is buying anything for it! I don't think I've bought any miniatures from GW since I updated my fatties just because of the cost, so I moved onto other manufacturers.... Funny you should say that about Avian he attacks any rumour mongers with little remorse, now he is onto Harry and Hastings he must be a GW mole lol!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also ogres could go into any book.

The average 2500 point army right now ranges from $600-800 USD. For 1 army. 1 player.

GW is in a tight spot on new customers. To me, I understand that I may have these models for a decade, so I may not mind the up front cost as I see the long term. New players don't know if they'll want to play a year from now, let alone a decade. And telling a young male to spend $800 on something that they don't know how much they like is asking a lot.

How do you convince someone to spend $175 just to get their feet wet with a GW game(battalion+codex)? Hell the only reason I got started was because I wanted to paint a few models, and later found out how to play the game and already had a few models bought up.

Without trying to descend into a pricing rant WFB is far to expensive to impulse buy for the regular pearson. I've voted with my wallet (still play the game I just refuse to pay outlandish prises for a product I can get cheaper elsewhere).

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to be conspiratorial, but there also is the issue that GW appears to be making increasing efforts to only support their lines with models that are more strongly protectable from an IP standpoint. Fantasy is the most vulnerable to this (compared to the various 40k lines): everything is just so derivative, at least on the level of the troops.

Lawyers deciding what the design studio does, explains many decisions.

 Flashman wrote:
I'm not opposed to the idea, but I can't wrap my head around how it's going to work...

c) the army books will ditch the fluff and just go for army lists with as many special rules as possible covered by the core rule book

This is how things will go, imho. So you'd have a BRB and one or two books for army lists, depending on how thick they wanted to make them, along with maybe a final book for things like magic. Then they could put out background books as and when they had a gap to fill in the release schedule or they wanted to push a specific army.

So, at most, that's four books to keep on top of to have a full and current set of rules and army lists. Even if they're priced a little higher than the current books, due to reduced AB sales, it'd still not be a massive outlay for a full system that is in theory balanced against itself. Then, unless you're wanting to take part in tournaments / events there's no need to worry about buying other books if your local group wants to stick with a set revision.