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 Aerethan wrote:
I don't think there is enough info to warrant its own thread yet, sadly.

Given that June and July are 40k centric, I'd wager August would be Hobbit related(unless that line is dying like I suspect it is). That would put LM in September.

That many months with no fantasy release? Huh...

"We should concentrate on making more space marines, Fantasy just doesn't sell"

*no fantasy releases for 4 months resulting in slump in sales*

"SEE!?!"

*self-fulfilling prophecy is self-fulfilling*.

Sad, as some of the new rules for 6th ed came from Fantasy.

I actually enjoy 8th ed as it's not magi hammer or hero hammer we've had in the past. But because it's not WAAC based (or currently following HORDES/WARMACHINE model) it's perceived as not selling well.

Maybe it's because most of the old timers haven't had to change models and the ADHD 12 yr old can't handle a decent set of rules? Maybe...

 RiTides wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
I don't think there is enough info to warrant its own thread yet, sadly.

Given that June and July are 40k centric, I'd wager August would be Hobbit related(unless that line is dying like I suspect it is). That would put LM in September.

That many months with no fantasy release? Huh...

Remember last year, 2 WFB releases in the first 4 months, then nothing until fall. Now logic would dictate that Summer this year should be WFB, since last Summer was 40k, but that would be logic, and GW will have none of that.

 Aerethan wrote:
Remember last year, 2 WFB releases in the first 4 months, then nothing until fall. Now logic would dictate that Summer this year should be WFB, since last Summer was 40k, but that would be logic, and GW will have none of that.

That's not logic, that's a statistical extrapolation based on a sample of one

Sorry, in my experience every summer features a flagship release, and that has generally alternated between WFB and 40k.

As someone else said, WFB will fail if GW doesn't bother with it.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:


But because it's not WAAC based (or currently following HORDES/WARMACHINE model) it's perceived as not selling well.

Uh, I would argue it's perceived as not selling well because it's.... not selling well. Whether that's "because it's not WAAC based (or currently following the HORDES/WARMACHINE model)" may or may not be a factor, but it's not selling well.

 Aerethan wrote:
Sorry, in my experience every summer features a flagship release, and that has generally alternated between WFB and 40k.

As someone else said, WFB will fail if GW doesn't bother with it.

It's like specialist games all over again!

Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why our other games aren't selling after we stopped promoting them in our magazine, shops and literature?!?!

Minion: I know sir! We can pile them all together somewhere dusty and rarely seen and call them 'specialist games', allowing us to concentrate on no media, no advertising and no mention, they'll flourish there!!

Kirby: Now we're selling even less! Scrap them with no warning!

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why our fantasy range isn't sellilng after we stopped promoting it, stopped releases for it and left it to die in favor of warhammer 40k, as we're selling more 40k than ever?!?!

Minion: I know sir! We can leave it as a poor country cousin to 40k, dwelling on the fringes and getting less than a fifth of 40k's attention, it's bound to be a winner!

Kirby: Hmmm, now we're selling even less! Amalgamate the rules for the armies, take it to direct sales and let it die a slow, lingering death...

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why all the other armies for 40k, our only remaining game except the movie tie-in fads, aren't selling, despite our constant, ongoing and relentless marketing of the space marine army in multiple variants in books, computer games, artwork, enormous statues and every single boxed release of the rules?!?

Minion: I know sir, we can leave the other armies to receive updates less and less over years, reduce some to simple patch-ups, leave some mini ranges desperately in need of updates and others only half updated making the army look like stale underwear, then we can increase the rate of marine releases including turning forgeworld in to a marine only park, releasing 'modern marine' adventures like badab and indulging in the giant marine sausagefest that is the horus heresy for the next decade!

Kirby: Botheration! Now we're selling even less 'other armies', release only two amalgamated codices for them, Xenos and Other imperium stooges, and take them to direct sales to die a slow, lingering death...

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Welcome to Games Workshop, Games Workshop produces 2 amazing games, WarMarine 40k, pitting marines against marines, with marine allies, and Silmarillion: The Tolkien IP Squeezing Game! Games Workshop is a division of Hasbro, Hasbro: 'Building Better Worlds'.

Hey, a Silmarillion game would be the gak!

Wait. Didn't we just have a High Elf release like last month? I like to pick on GW like everybody else around here but let's at least be honest here.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why our other games aren't selling after we stopped promoting them in our magazine, shops and literature?!?!

Minion: I know sir! We can pile them all together somewhere dusty and rarely seen and call them 'specialist games', allowing us to concentrate on no media, no advertising and no mention, they'll flourish there!!

Kirby: Now we're selling even less! Scrap them with no warning!

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why our fantasy range isn't sellilng after we stopped promoting it, stopped releases for it and left it to die in favor of warhammer 40k, as we're selling more 40k than ever?!?!

Minion: I know sir! We can leave it as a poor country cousin to 40k, dwelling on the fringes and getting less than a fifth of 40k's attention, it's bound to be a winner!

Kirby: Hmmm, now we're selling even less! Amalgamate the rules for the armies, take it to direct sales and let it die a slow, lingering death...

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why all the other armies for 40k, our only remaining game except the movie tie-in fads, aren't selling, despite our constant, ongoing and relentless marketing of the space marine army in multiple variants in books, computer games, artwork, enormous statues and every single boxed release of the rules?!?

Minion: I know sir, we can leave the other armies to receive updates less and less over years, reduce some to simple patch-ups, leave some mini ranges desperately in need of updates and others only half updated making the army look like stale underwear, then we can increase the rate of marine releases including turning forgeworld in to a marine only park, releasing 'modern marine' adventures like badab and indulging in the giant marine sausagefest that is the horus heresy for the next decade!

Kirby: Botheration! Now we're selling even less 'other armies', release only two amalgamated codices for them, Xenos and Other imperium stooges, and take them to direct sales to die a slow, lingering death...

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Welcome to Games Workshop, Games Workshop produces 2 amazing games, WarMarine 40k, pitting marines against marines, with marine allies, and Silmarillion: The Tolkien IP Squeezing Game! Games Workshop is a division of Hasbro, Hasbro: 'Building Better Worlds'.

My only problem with this is the assumption that any underling offering any kind of advice or even speaking wouldn't immediately be horsewhipped and shot....

This isn't a democracy you know!

On a serious note, yeah we got new high elves to tie in with the new box for the new edition for their new release and weren't fantasy daemons re-released a short while ago? I think people are only saying that the WHFB line isn't getting much attention when put into contrast of GW's new policy on 40k codex;s of firing them out on full auto, WHFB hasn't gotten slower at new released, it just WHFB designers aren't being horsewhipped enough.

Lets face it whfb just doesn't have enough giant £70 monsters to make it interesting. GW is too busy making khorne-zords and gundam suits to bother with a fantasy release this summer. Throw in a few models of bilbo with a walking stick that nobody buys and you've got their release schedule til january.

Point blank this edition really tried to make a highly tactical game less tactical, failed to appeal to the core and wasn't sexy enough to bring in enough newbies epic fail!
In my neck of the woods you could have picked between skaven, daemons, tomb kings, high elves and an ork army all well over 1000 worth of product selling for between 200 and 350 you can't give away fantasy product! Friends of mine in other cities and even in different countries are finding similar situations.
We went from a regular group of about 2 dozen players to 1 or 2 guys playing weekly.

They don't have to do much to fix it.
Problem #1 those freaking no save of any kind or die spells just wrong!!!! allow them to do a max of 1 wound so characters and multiwound models don't go poof so easily.
Magic miscasts shouldn't have any save of any kind the impact of a irresistible forced, sun, dwellers etc is so powerful the negative consequence must balance it to a certain extent and it really doesn't right now.

MAke terrain matter again!!!!!!!!
As well make steadfast a bit easier to break.
Hope the new edition comes fast!!!!!!!

MGS, that was hilarious.

I don't know where these August Hobbit rumours come from. I keep hearing Lizards in august and speese marines in september

danp164 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why our other games aren't selling after we stopped promoting them in our magazine, shops and literature?!?!

Minion: I know sir! We can pile them all together somewhere dusty and rarely seen and call them 'specialist games', allowing us to concentrate on no media, no advertising and no mention, they'll flourish there!!

Kirby: Now we're selling even less! Scrap them with no warning!

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why our fantasy range isn't sellilng after we stopped promoting it, stopped releases for it and left it to die in favor of warhammer 40k, as we're selling more 40k than ever?!?!

Minion: I know sir! We can leave it as a poor country cousin to 40k, dwelling on the fringes and getting less than a fifth of 40k's attention, it's bound to be a winner!

Kirby: Hmmm, now we're selling even less! Amalgamate the rules for the armies, take it to direct sales and let it die a slow, lingering death...

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Kirby: I don't understand, hapless minion, why all the other armies for 40k, our only remaining game except the movie tie-in fads, aren't selling, despite our constant, ongoing and relentless marketing of the space marine army in multiple variants in books, computer games, artwork, enormous statues and every single boxed release of the rules?!?

Minion: I know sir, we can leave the other armies to receive updates less and less over years, reduce some to simple patch-ups, leave some mini ranges desperately in need of updates and others only half updated making the army look like stale underwear, then we can increase the rate of marine releases including turning forgeworld in to a marine only park, releasing 'modern marine' adventures like badab and indulging in the giant marine sausagefest that is the horus heresy for the next decade!

Kirby: Botheration! Now we're selling even less 'other armies', release only two amalgamated codices for them, Xenos and Other imperium stooges, and take them to direct sales to die a slow, lingering death...

Minion: Yes master, this is great news!


...some time passes...


Welcome to Games Workshop, Games Workshop produces 2 amazing games, WarMarine 40k, pitting marines against marines, with marine allies, and Silmarillion: The Tolkien IP Squeezing Game! Games Workshop is a division of Hasbro, Hasbro: 'Building Better Worlds'.

My only problem with this is the assumption that any underling offering any kind of advice or even speaking wouldn't immediately be horsewhipped and shot....

This isn't a democracy you know!

On a serious note, yeah we got new high elves to tie in with the new box for the new edition for their new release and weren't fantasy daemons re-released a short while ago? I think people are only saying that the WHFB line isn't getting much attention when put into contrast of GW's new policy on 40k codex;s of firing them out on full auto, WHFB hasn't gotten slower at new released, it just WHFB designers aren't being horsewhipped enough.

Except that the WHFB Daemons of Chaos release was alongside the 40k release, and that the WHFB DoC army book is an absolute affront against good army design. The WoC release was lacklustre at best and the HE release has only sustained HE armies rather than encouraged new investment (due to old-as-hell core kits, auto-includes which are bordering on extortion in terms of pricing and all around blandness). Simply put: they're no Ogre Kingdoms.

Then again, that is an issue with attempting to sell rub-par rules for premium prices, rather than discussing the actual rumours. Honestly condensing the army books into larger versions is (in their position) quite a smart move, but that all depends on how it is executed (as merely 3 army books in the same book or as a conglomerate force utilizing the same principles as allies, just less stupid). Your cross-selling whilst getting players to pay more for the unique ruleset (the army books over the BRB) which will hopefully sustain it for another cycle.

The following things are pretty much up for debate:

- Whether they will have learned from 40k how not to create a definite allies matrix (with complete lack of foresight for future sales)?
- To what extent will it be condensed (Order/Destruction/Neutral, race, geographical location, arbitrary fluff or something else)?
- Whether they will go for 'bigger is better' (40k style 'cinematic') or streamline it further in order to make it work better with the army books?
- Will they attempt to go for more models per army or simply cross sell (or both)?

In essence: to what degree will these changes alienate current and new players by raising entry costs?

 Ehsteve wrote:
In essence: to what degree will these changes alienate current and new players by raising entry costs?

The entry cost for WHF is already fething ridiculous, if they raise it any more you might as well call that game dead.

 Micky wrote:
speese marines

That gets funnier every time I see it...

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
In essence: to what degree will these changes alienate current and new players by raising entry costs?

The entry cost for WHF is already DERPing ridiculous, if they raise it any more you might as well call that game dead.

I didn't say otherwise. But when you consider you'll have to pay for 2-4 the price for the new army books (as it will contain a premium 2-4 armies including three dozen pages of useless army pictures) on top of the new ruleset (which will probably have more pages and useless garbage than the last one) regardless of whether you get it through the starter set or just buy the hardback anyway, the costs are looking at rising further.

Yeah, entry costs look to increase simply because armies will be bundled into 'big books to rule them all'. Like I said earlier - as an Australian, I wasn't happy being charged $124 for the rulebook (which is why I didn't pay that). I am not happy being charged $83 for army books/codices, but I grudgingly pay it. I certainly will not be happy paying over $100 for a 'big book of baddies' when all I want if the Vampire Counts stuff and any associated fluff. At that point, the only thing keeping my buying it is the fact that I want to support my FLGS, and don't want to be 'that guy' with a printed PDF copy when I play there.

UltraPrime wrote:

 Micky wrote:
speese marines

That gets funnier every time I see it...

Odd. Every time I see it I want to gauge out my eyes and those of the person who reposted it. Brother SRM has a lot of answer for.

I would welcome a return to many-armies-in-one-book. And anyone worried about blandification shouldn't be. The 3rd edition Warhammer Armies book was one of my favorite wargaming books ever. It just had basic black-and-white drawings and simple descriptions, but it was packed with ideas.

If GW is going this way I would advise them to keep it trim and try to fit everything - everything - in one book. We don't need all full-color pages and we don't need tons of background. Just lists. I never quite understood why a miniatures company tries to make its rulebooks a profit center.

Then they can release individual add-ons a la the Iyanden book with named heros, magic items, a couple of scenarios, and fluff. That way you don't NEED the dedicated book to play the army, but if you have it you can do some more stuff.

Of course it's all irrelevant until they fix WHFB. They randomed up the game, making it less appealing to crusty old gamers. And then they made it even more expensive to get into, making it less appealing to young gamers. S-M-R-T. I mean...I spend $1000 and 100 hours building an army only to lift it off the table by handfuls because someone got off a Purple Sun. Or I get eaten by a forest (sorry...a MAAAAAAGICAL forest). Or MY big monster fails its save against YOUR cannon while YOUR big monster passes its save against MY cannon...and then I die. Etc etc.

Fun at first, but after a few games...why bother? There's not much feeling of accomplishment when everything is so random.

I guess in a way it is good news because obviously GW knows 8th edition is a dud. I hope they are able to fix it.

Guys, who cares about all that... how did the following go by with no discussion?

 Micky wrote:
I don't know where these August Hobbit rumours come from. I keep hearing Lizards in august and speese marines in september

Lizards in August? Is it possible? That'd be a lot better than September... even if sales are lagging, more neglect certainly won't help matters.

 Ehsteve wrote:


The following things are pretty much up for debate:

- Whether they will have learned from 40k how not to create a definite allies matrix (with complete lack of foresight for future sales)?
- To what extent will it be condensed (Order/Destruction/Neutral, race, geographical location, arbitrary fluff or something else)?

At this point I'd be satisfied with them hiring a competent graphic designer, that would make a readable allis matrix for warhammer fantasy.

Current 40k one has 4 colors to symbolize degree of alliance: Red, Blue, Yellow & Grey.
How many would guess, that Grey is the "best" colour of these and symbolises best alliance potential? Or that Blue alliance is worse than Yellow?
Or How about the Skulls? Skulls everywhere without reason? Or using 16 Symbols, instead of Army names for defining who is who on the Matrix?

 adhuin wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:


The following things are pretty much up for debate:

- Whether they will have learned from 40k how not to create a definite allies matrix (with complete lack of foresight for future sales)?
- To what extent will it be condensed (Order/Destruction/Neutral, race, geographical location, arbitrary fluff or something else)?

At this point I'd be satisfied with them hiring a competent graphic designer, that would make a readable allis matrix for warhammer fantasy.

Current 40k one has 4 colors to symbolize degree of alliance: Red, Blue, Yellow & Grey.
How many would guess, that Grey is the "best" colour of these and symbolises best alliance potential? Or that Blue alliance is worse than Yellow?
Or How about the Skulls? Skulls everywhere without reason? Or using 16 Symbols, instead of Army names for defining who is who on the Matrix?

Wow.. that's dumb.

I guess in a way it is good news because obviously GW knows 8th edition is a dud. I hope they are able to fix it.

I'm not the least bit convinced GW knows WHFB is a dud and certainly not for the randomness cited as a major reason for it. One of the newest releases is Daemons and that has more randomness than ever, in fact the WHFB and 40K versions both have a chart in them that potentially destroys one's own army during the game. I don't see GW moving away from the randomness at the moment at all, but who knows what the future will bring in a few years.

I did notice that the new High Elves sales were not as brisk as one might have expected at my local shop where Fantasy is still quite popular. Especially surprising for such a popular and iconic army and one that is in the current starter set. Fantasy does seem to be dropping off a bit in spite of a strong re-launch when 8th Edition was first released. I also noticed that the local GW shop did not get a ton of High Elves merchandise in for release weekend, perhaps indicating that GW had projected only modest sales for that new release.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Sad, as some of the new rules for 6th ed came from Fantasy.

I actually enjoy 8th ed as it's not magi hammer or hero hammer we've had in the past. But because it's not WAAC based (or currently following HORDES/WARMACHINE model) it's perceived as not selling well.

Maybe it's because most of the old timers haven't had to change models and the ADHD 12 yr old can't handle a decent set of rules? Maybe...

Or maybe because it's a horrific game that has devolved from a being a strategic game where positioning was critical to being a simplistic exercise in pushing around masses of models and chucking buckets of dice to achieve semi-random results?

Or maybe it's because folks realize that you're investing more cash to play standard games in a system that certainly is the most magi-hammery it's been in 12+ years, so all those models basically can just get shoveled off the board?

Or maybe even the ADHD 12 year olds realize that a game that basically amounts to shoving everything to the center and then rolling 30ish dice repeatedly until one side "wins" is not a particularly fulfilling activity?

Maybe......

I agree that 8th is FAR more magic and character centric than 6th edition was.

I think a large part of that is the shift to % based composition, as well as wanting to give the kiddies some IWIN buttons in the game.

I maintain that 6th edition was the peak of this game in 90% of the ways that matter. There were flaws, but nothing that couldn't be house ruled or errata'd.

Lucky for me, my most common opponent is my wife, so we can just house rule anything we want to fit into our definitions of fair and fun.

bored1 wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Sad, as some of the new rules for 6th ed came from Fantasy.

I actually enjoy 8th ed as it's not magi hammer or hero hammer we've had in the past. But because it's not WAAC based (or currently following HORDES/WARMACHINE model) it's perceived as not selling well.

Maybe it's because most of the old timers haven't had to change models and the ADHD 12 yr old can't handle a decent set of rules? Maybe...

Or maybe because it's a horrific game that has devolved from a being a strategic game where positioning was critical to being a simplistic exercise in pushing around masses of models and chucking buckets of dice to achieve semi-random results?

Or maybe it's because folks realize that you're investing more cash to play standard games in a system that certainly is the most magi-hammery it's been in 12+ years, so all those models basically can just get shoveled off the board?

Or maybe even the ADHD 12 year olds realize that a game that basically amounts to shoving everything to the center and then rolling 30ish dice repeatedly until one side "wins" is not a particularly fulfilling activity?

Maybe......

The randomness is slightly annoying, as are the whole huge spells with potential to destroy armies with one casting.

Still, could be worse, the system could be bring the models which always get a 3+ or 2+ save and tanks you need 6's to start hurting when firing the commonplace best weapon...

Oh wait, 1998 they did that


I have faith in fantasy staying pretty strong, the whole single army book for them all approach is actually appealing as it means you have rules for every army in your hands, and therefore temptation

Having flanking actually matter (i.e. be able to remove steadfast) would be huge. Or some benefit for charging. Or anything to increase the tactical nature of the game once again, I think.

Unfortunately, a lot of that went out the window with 8th... a bit of throwing the baby out with the bath water, I think, despite some good changes. The game just isn't as much "fun" in some ways, to play.

That said, I think the balance between army books is better, so hopefully they keep that as well as make the ruleset more interesting in the next edition... whenever that is . I'm building an army in anticipation of it now, though (even if it's 2 years off) as I do love fantasy.