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Maybe Banshees will be moved to troops. They can barely keep up with Storm Guardians now. Definitely not an elite quality unit anymore.

Oh they are elite. They just require the right scenario:

Be 13" or less from a unit of Armor 3+ models.
It be your turn.
Have a power boost your strength or allow you to re-roll failed wounds of some type.
Have your opponent forget that Overwatch exists.
Always kill more models than your opponent so you don't run like hell.

Easy peasy.

So essentially phil has buffed all the other aspects considerably (-dragons), while banshees are essentially the same, but one point less and without grenades

P.S - SARCASM is the word of the day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine wrote:
So essentially phil has buffed all the other aspects considerably (-dragons), while banshees are essentially the same, but one point less and without grenades

Yes, correct. Am I the only one that suspects somebody walked over to Phil after he was done with the Banshees, redacted everything he did to make them useful...nodded and pointed to his big GW badge...and walked away?

I now understan why they scream...

 Khaine wrote:
So essentially phil has buffed all the other aspects considerably (-dragons), while banshees are essentially the same, but one point less and without grenades

Looks that way. Nobody has mentioned the now 10 man Dark Reaper squad that apparently has str8 ap3 regular shots and flakk skyfire ammo. I'm sure somebody will park 30 of these on a Skyshield Landing Pad to get the 4++ for the "Come at me Brah" lulz....

It's a sad day when a cheap troops unit can out perform an expensive elite unit at it's own game. Before luck is considered.

The dark reapers are going to be paying extra points on top of their not inconsiderable starting cost to be able to use krak or flakk. Don't assume it's all free on a 30pt model.

A compilation of the massive rumor tidal wave from last night can be found here.

http://pastebin.com/PPaTJXSr

 Hulksmash wrote:
The dark reapers are going to be paying extra points on top of their not inconsiderable starting cost to be able to use krak or flakk. Don't assume it's all free on a 30pt model.

You never know, Phil Kelly did create Long Fangs

Alright updated my list of Raziel/Souba info, up to the Elite section now. Gonna be working on it all day as the info takes time to reorganize and "translate" all this info.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/463557/5671458.page#5671458

Don't think spiders changed all that much either did they? In fact, aren't they slower? Or does their jetpack have a 12" movement rule somewhere?

I'm just happy scorpions got improved. Karrandras will be near unkillable with a unit of scorpions. Only wish there was some way to make aspects troops as elites and heavy are both going to be very difficult to choose between.

By the way, Banshees didn't have assault grenades before. They relied on their masks, just like they will now.

Except their Masks no longer increase their initiative, they lower the opponent's. So you're at best going at the same time when you charge through terrain. That's terrible for a T3 4+ unit - even before you count them getting shot at before assaulting.

Why are people complaining about Banshees without knowing what they do yet?

For all we know the Banshee Mask acts as grenades (like it used to), disallows Overwatch (makes flavorful sense), and acts like Jain Zar's mask and lowers the enemy's WS as well (increases Banshee survivability). All wild guesses, of course.

Nvs wrote:
Don't think spiders changed all that much either did they? In fact, aren't they slower? Or does their jetpack have a 12" movement rule somewhere?

I'm just happy scorpions got improved. Karrandras will be near unkillable with a unit of scorpions. Only wish there was some way to make aspects troops as elites and heavy are both going to be very difficult to choose between.

I think Warp Spiders are just different.

Being jetpack infantry now means they move 6" and are allowed an assault move of 6". This is for all jetpack infantry but they still have their Warp Generator listed in their wargear.

We could be looking at either 6" move and 2D6" assault move OR

6" move and 6"+2D6" assault move which would be seem totally crazy BUT actually bring them back to a similar level as before. 24" potential range just spread out differently through the phases.

Wait if this (http://pastebin.com/PPaTJXSr) is true... Then Warp spiders have the monofilement rule so s7 vs vehicles O.O

 Absolutionis wrote:
Why are people complaining about Banshees without knowing what they do yet?

For all we know the Banshee Mask acts as grenades (like it used to), disallows Overwatch (makes flavorful sense), and acts like Jain Zar's mask and lowers the enemy's WS as well (increases Banshee survivability). All wild guesses, of course.

Because the leaks are saying acrobatic is just counter attack, and Banshee Mask is -5I while Jain Zar Mask is -5I and -5WS. Even if all this is wrong ...

They still die to shooting before getting into combat.

 Zathras wrote:

KaiyaA wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Good points by people concerning guardians, but what the game needs is a spinal tap turn it up to 11 option for the really elite, elite units! Otherwise, everybody will be running around with BS4, and where's the fun in that!

What's a spinal tap?

It's referring to a movie that came out in 1984. "This Is Spinal Tap" was a movie about a British heavy metal band of the same name making a come back tour in America. The scene below explains the "turn it up to 11" that he was talking about....




Not trying to derail the thread, just answering the question.

Exactly what I meant! I've long argued that the best of the best need that 11 option. Where's GW's credibility in this matter?

Anyway, back OT. Are Rangers are good in this edition? Got a load to sell!

Sadly the Banshees portray the problem that has plagued GW forever. The designers don't really play the game like everyone else does. If they did, they'd notice that the inherent problem for fragile short ranged Space Elves is the delivery method. If you can't assault out of transports or you can't infiltrate near the enemy while being fleet, or you're not otherwise ridiculously fast like 6"+D6"+12" for cavalry last edition, you're simply never going to see combat.

You don't fix Banshees by giving them a one or two points price reduction. You fix them by buffing the Wave Serpent or the Falcon with assault ramps or like someone suggested give them a special rule that allows them to treat transports as assault vehicles. It's not like Banshees are some uber beatstick unit from hell even when they do make it into combat, and we're (still) supposed to believe they can shrug off one shooting phase of firepower and an overwatch. It's just bad.

Many of the Aspect Warriors are from over a decade old editions where specialised combat units like that could function because transports worked for assault units. The whole unit concept (glasscannon assault unit that requires a transport) has been dead for years but Phil Kelly just hasn't noticed.

I'm not fond of the internal balance of this codex from the sound of things. Not only is heavy support way, way too crowded, but basically all of the other special slots (fast attack and elites) is filled with unfixed garbage. By garbage I mean elf units that suffer from elf problems while the designers are too lazy to fix them. The same problems plague Dark Eldar too. Even that army is played for the vehicles and some of them (Venoms) can't be gotten without attached pointy eared gimps. The Guardian / Dire Avenger debate isn't even close, the Guardians win by a mile because their firepower is most of the time better but they come with a ton more wounds for the same price and thus perform the objectives role better.

I hope those craftworld specific books contain in-game rules that fix the force organisation log jams and hopefully add some other special rules to make the army more interesting. I don't think anything's changed so far.

I can't believe Acrobatic is just counter attack, they'd just give them counter attack surely? Are there any other examples in 6th of GW giving a unit an existing rule but renaming it?

 Therion wrote:
Sadly the Banshees portray the problem that has plagued GW forever. The designers don't really play the game like everyone else does. If they did, they'd notice that the inherent problem for fragile short ranged Space Elves is the delivery method. If you can't assault out ot transports or you can't infiltrate near the enemy while being fleet, or you're not otherwise ridiculously fast like 6"+D6"+12" for cavalry last edition, you're simply never going to see combat.
The whole unit concept (glasscannon assault unit that requires a transport) has been dead for years but Phil Kelly just hasn't noticed.

It really does seem that way. You would think that once in awhile they would walk into the game room at Nottingham HQ and just watch how their consumers are actually playing the game. Or heaven forbid play a game against one of the visitors. See what they have fun doing and not doing. Simple anecodotal evidence would go a long way.

 shamikebab wrote:
I can't believe Acrobatic is just counter attack, they'd just give them counter attack surely? Are there any other examples in 6th of GW giving a unit an existing rule but renaming it?

Not straight up, usually its a combo. Like the rule DA got that gave Stubborn and PE Chaos Space Marines.

 shamikebab wrote:
I can't believe Acrobatic is just counter attack, they'd just give them counter attack surely? Are there any other examples in 6th of GW giving a unit an existing rule but renaming it?

I wouldn't be shocked if it gave them Counter-Attack and the ability to assault after running.

 Therion wrote:
Many of the Aspect Warriors are from over a decade old editions where specialised combat units like that could function because transports worked for assault units. The whole unit concept (glasscannon assault unit that requires a transport) has been dead for years but Phil Kelly just hasn't noticed.

I'm not fond of the internal balance of this codex from the sound of things. Not only is heavy support way, way too crowded, but basically all of the other special slots (fast attack and elites) is filled with unfixed garbage.

Kinda agree......as much as I like what they've done to Guardians and the Vehicles, I feel that Aspects have got the short end again. I mean, I like Fire Dragons ok even with the points boost but for their job (Serpent deployed anti-tank), but they're competing too much with Wraithguard now:

Dragons: 110pts base for 5 models, T3 s8 ap1 melta
Wraithguard: 160pts base for 5 models, but T6 s10 ap1 and scoring.

Why wouldnt you take the Wraithguard?

Banshees on jetbikes or replace swooping hawks with swooping Banshes would be absolutely terrifying. That would be a unit i would like to see.

As it is, Harlies do it better and have better rules currently.

Lets just wait and see how the rules come out. I stocked up on Spiders as the FA choices outside of the new fliers was all i had room for. I am excited to see the new rules.

Sooo....

Are "Battletrance" as seen in that pastebin dump and "Battle Focus" as seen in the iPad Codex preview the same thing?

I wonder what The "Targeting Array" on the reapers does...

5 Man WG squadds will be quite nice but melta>str 10 ap 1. That said I think I would go with WGs more often than the FDs anyway.

Darge wrote:
Alright updated my list of Raziel/Souba info, up to the Elite section now. Gonna be working on it all day as the info takes time to reorganize and "translate" all this info.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/463557/5671458.page#5671458

Your work is appreciated. Especially for those of us that are work blocked from most other sources.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sooo....

Are "Battletrance" as seen in that pastebin dump and "Battle Focus" as seen in the iPad Codex preview the same thing?

Yes, translation issues. Same with "Ancient Doom" and "Old Nemesis", and a bunch of other mismatches.