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In 5th, everyone seemed to be using mechanised melta vets and lots of LRs due to armour being as good as it was, but now with the change of rules and the shrinkage of importance (couldnt think of the right word to use) of tanks due to them being more fragile now, what are the units/ builds that are now the best in codex? It seems the "focus" has shifted much more towards MEQs and heavy infantry now?

I've only just got my hands on the 6th ed rulebook and am still gathering my thoughts on what to make of it and how it affects my army as I re-write my list and any advice would be much appreciated!

Tanks, tanks, more tanks, and flying tanks (vendettas)

seriously, the changes to 6th edition vehicles made IG vehicles even more deadly. You can't glance a leman russ and shut it up for a turn anymore. Now, it keeps shooting until you kill it. You only get to roll on the damage chart for pens, and not much can pen a russ from the front at range. Artillery can't be shut up from glances either, and now it can snipe models from the center of the blast. Speaking of which, blasts are full strength over the whole template now, which means IG can wreck parking lots like no other army.

Get ready to see a lot of mech IG lists in 6th, because they're going to bring the pain.

Leman Russes and Vendettas.

Vendetta = best flyer in the game, hands down.

Leman Russ = best tank in the game, hands down. Only tank that can fire blast weapons when shaken (so practically ignores it).

Unit1126PLL wrote:Leman Russes and Vendettas.

Vendetta = best flyer in the game, hands down.

Leman Russ = best tank in the game, hands down. Only tank that can fire blast weapons when shaken (so practically ignores it).

Where are you getting that from, because if that's true that means my russes could've fired last game. I haven't seen anywhere that lets Russes ignore shaken results and still fire.

I'm writing a 500pt list, all I have so far model wise, is a CCS with 4 flamers and a LRBT with lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons, what would you suggest should fill out the rest? :S

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Leman Russes and Vendettas.

Vendetta = best flyer in the game, hands down.

Leman Russ = best tank in the game, hands down. Only tank that can fire blast weapons when shaken (so practically ignores it).

Where are you getting that from, because if that's true that means my russes could've fired last game. I haven't seen anywhere that lets Russes ignore shaken results and still fire.

Lumbering Behemoth allows the Leman Russ to "always" fire its main gun if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed "in addition to any other guns that may be fired."

Since under 6th Edition shaken rules, other guns may be fired, then the Leman Russ's main gun may be fired according to the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Since there are no rules permitting the snap-firing of blast templates, then they fire at full BS (otherwise the game breaks).

I give my opinions here.

My favorite units coming out of 6th ed so far are stormtroopers and leman russ exterminators. I'm already working on painting up 2 10-man stormie squads right now, and after that I'll be getting a couple of russes, probably.

My Favorite units i've found are Vets with Plasma guns , and Sentinals with lascannosn

Ailaros wrote:I give my opinions here.

My favorite units coming out of 6th ed so far are stormtroopers and leman russ exterminators. I'm already working on painting up 2 10-man stormie squads right now, and after that I'll be getting a couple of russes, DEFINITELY.

Fixed that for you.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Tanks, tanks, more tanks, and flying tanks (vendettas)

seriously, the changes to 6th edition vehicles made IG vehicles even more deadly. You can't glance a leman russ and shut it up for a turn anymore. Now, it keeps shooting until you kill it. You only get to roll on the damage chart for pens, and not much can pen a russ from the front at range. Artillery can't be shut up from glances either, and now it can snipe models from the center of the blast. Speaking of which, blasts are full strength over the whole template now, which means IG can wreck parking lots like no other army.

Get ready to see a lot of mech IG lists in 6th, because they're going to bring the pain.

Agreed, fought my friend Necrons the other day, and despite a contentious barrage of glances, the Russes just kept firing! Also, immobilizes no longer auto-kill a tanks in a squadron, a real boost to IG vehicle squads.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Leman Russes and Vendettas.

Vendetta = best flyer in the game, hands down.

Leman Russ = best tank in the game, hands down. Only tank that can fire blast weapons when shaken (so practically ignores it).

Where are you getting that from, because if that's true that means my russes could've fired last game. I haven't seen anywhere that lets Russes ignore shaken results and still fire.

Lumbering Behemoth allows the Leman Russ to "always" fire its main gun if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed "in addition to any other guns that may be fired."

Since under 6th Edition shaken rules, other guns may be fired, then the Leman Russ's main gun may be fired according to the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Since there are no rules permitting the snap-firing of blast templates, then they fire at full BS (otherwise the game breaks).

Re-read the lumbering behemoth rule. If it is shaken, it may not fire its main gun (unless snap shots, from say a Punisher or Exterminator). The rule states "can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire". Nowhere does the rule state it ignores shaken results, or may always fire regardless of other rules.

So no, a stunned russ is a non-shooting russ.

That said, they're still awesome.

The Mad Tanker wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Tanks, tanks, more tanks, and flying tanks (vendettas)

seriously, the changes to 6th edition vehicles made IG vehicles even more deadly. You can't glance a leman russ and shut it up for a turn anymore. Now, it keeps shooting until you kill it. You only get to roll on the damage chart for pens, and not much can pen a russ from the front at range. Artillery can't be shut up from glances either, and now it can snipe models from the center of the blast. Speaking of which, blasts are full strength over the whole template now, which means IG can wreck parking lots like no other army.

Get ready to see a lot of mech IG lists in 6th, because they're going to bring the pain.

Agreed, fought my friend Necrons the other day, and despite a contentious barrage of glances, the Russes just kept firing! Also, immobilizes no longer auto-kill a tanks in a squadron, a real boost to IG vehicle squads.

Played against an Eldar player the other day and had two 2 tank squadrons of Leman Russes. I proceeded to drive them back and forth over area terrain every turn. My opponent was halfway through saying "Why do you keep doing tha-" when I exclaimed "HELL YEAH! IMMOBILIZED! Time to split fire!"

One of my favorite moments ever playing IG. It actually won me the game, since I needed to split my tanks fire 3 ways on the final turn to wipe her objective holders!

Sort of reminds me of the old 4th ed "sentinel bomb".

Why are you charging your sentinel straight into somewhere where I will easily kill him? What, you say that everybody within up to 6" of the walker takes TWELVE vehicle explosion results? Why, why did I fire my dark reapers at that sentinel!?

Anything that encourages you to do damage to yourself is silly.

... but until 7th edition comes out...



Actually, back in the day, we used to joke that it would be funny if you could give your sentinels a "self destruct" mechanism. When you turned it on, it turned an open-topped vehicle into a SUPER-OPEN-TOPPED vehicle, wherein your opponent got a +3 to their damage roll, rather than just +1.

Likewise, what you're talking about begs for a 10-point upgrade called "tank mines", that makes it so that you can choose to automatically fail your difficult terrain test...

Blacksails wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Leman Russes and Vendettas.

Vendetta = best flyer in the game, hands down.

Leman Russ = best tank in the game, hands down. Only tank that can fire blast weapons when shaken (so practically ignores it).

Where are you getting that from, because if that's true that means my russes could've fired last game. I haven't seen anywhere that lets Russes ignore shaken results and still fire.

Lumbering Behemoth allows the Leman Russ to "always" fire its main gun if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed "in addition to any other guns that may be fired."

Since under 6th Edition shaken rules, other guns may be fired, then the Leman Russ's main gun may be fired according to the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Since there are no rules permitting the snap-firing of blast templates, then they fire at full BS (otherwise the game breaks).

Re-read the lumbering behemoth rule. If it is shaken, it may not fire its main gun (unless snap shots, from say a Punisher or Exterminator). The rule states "can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire". Nowhere does the rule state it ignores shaken results, or may always fire regardless of other rules.

So no, a stunned russ is a non-shooting russ.

That said, they're still awesome.

What other rule would it override if not shaken and stunned? And it doesn't have to say it ignores shaken results because the wording is functionally identical to the first sentence of Power of the Machine Spirit, with the phrase "full Ballistic Skill" omitted. But if you do not fire the ordnance at full ballistic skill, how do you fire it?

Plas-vets are pretty good now, and Vendettas have become one of the best units in the game.

Vendettas. Hands down. I don't even take them unless some twit takes flyers when no one else on the board has them.

Manticore: D3 str 10 large blast templates is even more terrifying despite AP 3-6 being nerfed against vehicles, the new blast rules practically guarantee a hit, which at strength 10 is always fairly likely to penetrate or glance, the latter being able to kill a vehicle outright with enough hits.

Vendetta: Was already Pro-tier, with the new flyer rules boosting it to God-tier.

Hydra: Fairly certain it can only fire snap shots against ground vehicles, but until new codexes start coming out it is really the best AA choice in the game outside of fortifications.

Chimera: As good as a transport can be, it takes a str 7 weapon to even immobilize it now, and glancing rules aren't too bad since it requires a good bit of firepower to bring down with 3 glancing hits.

Plasma Vets: The new rapid fire rules can allow their chimera to become a mobile fire base capable of tearing apart transports and terminators, just really nice

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Leman Russes and Vendettas.

Vendetta = best flyer in the game, hands down.

Leman Russ = best tank in the game, hands down. Only tank that can fire blast weapons when shaken (so practically ignores it).

Where are you getting that from, because if that's true that means my russes could've fired last game. I haven't seen anywhere that lets Russes ignore shaken results and still fire.

Lumbering Behemoth allows the Leman Russ to "always" fire its main gun if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed "in addition to any other guns that may be fired."

Since under 6th Edition shaken rules, other guns may be fired, then the Leman Russ's main gun may be fired according to the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Since there are no rules permitting the snap-firing of blast templates, then they fire at full BS (otherwise the game breaks).

Re-read the lumbering behemoth rule. If it is shaken, it may not fire its main gun (unless snap shots, from say a Punisher or Exterminator). The rule states "can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire". Nowhere does the rule state it ignores shaken results, or may always fire regardless of other rules.

So no, a stunned russ is a non-shooting russ.

That said, they're still awesome.

What other rule would it override if not shaken and stunned?

Limitations on Ordnance weapons firing in 5th?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Leman Russes and Vendettas.

Vendetta = best flyer in the game, hands down.

Leman Russ = best tank in the game, hands down. Only tank that can fire blast weapons when shaken (so practically ignores it).

Where are you getting that from, because if that's true that means my russes could've fired last game. I haven't seen anywhere that lets Russes ignore shaken results and still fire.

Lumbering Behemoth allows the Leman Russ to "always" fire its main gun if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed "in addition to any other guns that may be fired."

Since under 6th Edition shaken rules, other guns may be fired, then the Leman Russ's main gun may be fired according to the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Since there are no rules permitting the snap-firing of blast templates, then they fire at full BS (otherwise the game breaks).

Re-read the lumbering behemoth rule. If it is shaken, it may not fire its main gun (unless snap shots, from say a Punisher or Exterminator). The rule states "can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire". Nowhere does the rule state it ignores shaken results, or may always fire regardless of other rules.

So no, a stunned russ is a non-shooting russ.

That said, they're still awesome.

What other rule would it override if not shaken and stunned?

Limitations on Ordnance weapons firing in 5th?

This, which still applies to 6th. It allows you fire your turret weapon plus one additional weapon normally, obviously assuming the tank is permitted to shoot. Shaken/Stunned still affects Russes.

Here's how it works with Russes in 6th:

Let's take a vanilla Russ and give it a hull lascannon and sponson heavy bolters.

Stationary: The tank may shoot its Battle cannon and Lascannon normally (as per Lumbering Behemoth rule); may shoot the heavy bolters as snap shots (ordnance allows to only fire one weapon normally; LB allows to fire one additional weapon normally, the rest are snap shots).

Combat Speed: The tank may shoot its Battle cannon and lascannon normally (as per Lumbering Behemoth rule); may shoot the heavy bolters as snap shots.

Cruising Speed: The tank may not shoot its Battle cannon; may shoot the lascannon and heavy bolters as snap shots.

Stunned/Shaken: The tank may not shoot its Battle cannon; may shoot the lascannon and heavy bolters as snap shots.

All this changes slightly with the non ordnance weapons (Executioner, Exterminator, Punisher). The main changes are that when stationary, they may fire all the weapons normally (the ordnance restriction is lifted), and when moving at cruising speed, they may snap shoot (non blast) weapons, namely the autocannons and punisher cannons.

Hope that clears it up.

Blacksails wrote:
Stunned/Shaken: The tank may not shoot its Battle cannon; may shoot the lascannon and heavy bolters as snap shots.

All this changes slightly with the non ordnance weapons (Executioner, Exterminator, Punisher). The main changes are that when stationary, they may fire all the weapons normally (the ordnance restriction is lifted), and when moving at cruising speed, they may snap shoot (non blast) weapons, namely the autocannons and punisher cannons.

Hope that clears it up.

Why can't the LRBT fire its main gun when it is shaken or stunned? Codex says it ALWAYS may do so if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed, doesn't specify ordnance (so it isn't just to "override the normal ordnance rules"), and codex > BRB.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blacksails wrote:
Stunned/Shaken: The tank may not shoot its Battle cannon; may shoot the lascannon and heavy bolters as snap shots.

All this changes slightly with the non ordnance weapons (Executioner, Exterminator, Punisher). The main changes are that when stationary, they may fire all the weapons normally (the ordnance restriction is lifted), and when moving at cruising speed, they may snap shoot (non blast) weapons, namely the autocannons and punisher cannons.

Hope that clears it up.

Why can't the LRBT fire its main gun when it is shaken or stunned? Codex says it ALWAYS may do so if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed, doesn't specify ordnance (so it isn't just to "override the normal ordnance rules"), and codex > BRB.

You are misreading or mis-remembering the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Nowhere in the rule does it say 'always'. In fact, word always isn't used once. Here's the rule:

A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance!). However, a Leman Russ travelling at cruising speed can only move D6 + 6" - Roll every time it moves at this speed.

Word for word, letter for letter. Nowhere does it say it may fire if stunned. In fact, if you read the rule, it makes it pretty clear you can't shoot if stunned/shaken.

Again, hope that clears it up. Its very obvious you can't shoot if stunned/shaken when you give the rule a good solid read. Most people go by some sort of passed down simple version of the rule from game to game, so it happens that it gets confused at times.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

The Mad Tanker wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Tanks, tanks, more tanks, and flying tanks (vendettas)

seriously, the changes to 6th edition vehicles made IG vehicles even more deadly. You can't glance a leman russ and shut it up for a turn anymore. Now, it keeps shooting until you kill it. You only get to roll on the damage chart for pens, and not much can pen a russ from the front at range. Artillery can't be shut up from glances either, and now it can snipe models from the center of the blast. Speaking of which, blasts are full strength over the whole template now, which means IG can wreck parking lots like no other army.

Get ready to see a lot of mech IG lists in 6th, because they're going to bring the pain.

Agreed, fought my friend Necrons the other day, and despite a contentious barrage of glances, the Russes just kept firing! Also, immobilizes no longer auto-kill a tanks in a squadron, a real boost to IG vehicle squads.

Played against an Eldar player the other day and had two 2 tank squadrons of Leman Russes. I proceeded to drive them back and forth over area terrain every turn. My opponent was halfway through saying "Why do you keep doing tha-" when I exclaimed "HELL YEAH! IMMOBILIZED! Time to split fire!"

One of my favorite moments ever playing IG. It actually won me the game, since I needed to split my tanks fire 3 ways on the final turn to wipe her objective holders!

It's beautiful, isn't it?

I vote for the Manticore, or anything that fires a high strength large blast weapon. Or anything with AV14. Things guard armies bring in droves.
Guardsmen. I think we're getting into something beautiful...

Blacksails wrote:You are misreading or mis-remembering the Lumbering Behemoth rule.

Yes, but you actually missed the new rules for vehicle shaken and stunned results. Those results no longer prevent you from firing your weapons, they only reduce the shooting down to snap firing.

So, if you are stunned, that means you can fire everything, except it has to be snap fired, except you can still fire the main gun as normally (as per LB).

If you take the position that LB doesn't upgrade a snap shot to a full shot when the vehicle is stunned, then you'd need to take the position that LB doesn't upgrade a snap shot to a full shot when the vehicle moves.

Blacksails wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blacksails wrote:
Stunned/Shaken: The tank may not shoot its Battle cannon; may shoot the lascannon and heavy bolters as snap shots.

All this changes slightly with the non ordnance weapons (Executioner, Exterminator, Punisher). The main changes are that when stationary, they may fire all the weapons normally (the ordnance restriction is lifted), and when moving at cruising speed, they may snap shoot (non blast) weapons, namely the autocannons and punisher cannons.

Hope that clears it up.

Why can't the LRBT fire its main gun when it is shaken or stunned? Codex says it ALWAYS may do so if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed, doesn't specify ordnance (so it isn't just to "override the normal ordnance rules"), and codex > BRB.

You are misreading or mis-remembering the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Nowhere in the rule does it say 'always'. In fact, word always isn't used once. Here's the rule:

A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance!). However, a Leman Russ travelling at cruising speed can only move D6 + 6" - Roll every time it moves at this speed.

Word for word, letter for letter. Nowhere does it say it may fire if stunned. In fact, if you read the rule, it makes it pretty clear you can't shoot if stunned/shaken.

Again, hope that clears it up. Its very obvious you can't shoot if stunned/shaken when you give the rule a good solid read. Most people go by some sort of passed down simple version of the rule from game to game, so it happens that it gets confused at times.

You're right, it doesn't say always. It implies it.

"If this, then it can that..."
"A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary [if statement] can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire [then statement]."

It is very obvious that you can shoot if stunned/shaken when you give the rule a good solid read.

A second argument is one from Power of the Machine Spirit [only relevant bits quoted]:
"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves flat out or uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted."

Lumbering Behemoth [again only relevant bits quoted]:
"A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire."

The wording comparison is thusly:
A PotMS vehicle "can fire one more weapon" "than normally permitted."
A LRBT vehicle "can fire its turret weapon" in addition to any other weapons "it is usually allowed to fire"

You can see the statements are worded almost identically, with the exception that the Leman Russ may not fire its turret weapon at full BS - except that it has to, because there is no other way it can do it.

As a DE player, I have a newfound hatred for the Hydra flak tank and its "lol no jink for you" shredding my paper airplanes and jetbikes.

As I have played a lot of games with my IG in 6th I have to say Leman Russ tanks and Chimeras. One brings a wall of steel and pie plates to high heaven, the other brings shooty death and a load of shooty men inside with plasma guns

Best IG unit?

Guardsmen.

Ailaros wrote:

Blacksails wrote:You are misreading or mis-remembering the Lumbering Behemoth rule.

Yes, but you actually missed the new rules for vehicle shaken and stunned results. Those results no longer prevent you from firing your weapons, they only reduce the shooting down to snap firing.

So, if you are stunned, that means you can fire everything, except it has to be snap fired, except you can still fire the main gun as normally (as per LB).

If you take the position that LB doesn't upgrade a snap shot to a full shot when the vehicle is stunned, then you'd need to take the position that LB doesn't upgrade a snap shot to a full shot when the vehicle moves.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blacksails wrote:
Stunned/Shaken: The tank may not shoot its Battle cannon; may shoot the lascannon and heavy bolters as snap shots.

All this changes slightly with the non ordnance weapons (Executioner, Exterminator, Punisher). The main changes are that when stationary, they may fire all the weapons normally (the ordnance restriction is lifted), and when moving at cruising speed, they may snap shoot (non blast) weapons, namely the autocannons and punisher cannons.

Hope that clears it up.

Why can't the LRBT fire its main gun when it is shaken or stunned? Codex says it ALWAYS may do so if it remained stationary or moved at combat speed, doesn't specify ordnance (so it isn't just to "override the normal ordnance rules"), and codex > BRB.

You are misreading or mis-remembering the Lumbering Behemoth rule. Nowhere in the rule does it say 'always'. In fact, word always isn't used once. Here's the rule:

A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance!). However, a Leman Russ travelling at cruising speed can only move D6 + 6" - Roll every time it moves at this speed.

Word for word, letter for letter. Nowhere does it say it may fire if stunned. In fact, if you read the rule, it makes it pretty clear you can't shoot if stunned/shaken.

Again, hope that clears it up. Its very obvious you can't shoot if stunned/shaken when you give the rule a good solid read. Most people go by some sort of passed down simple version of the rule from game to game, so it happens that it gets confused at times.

You're right, it doesn't say always. It implies it.

"If this, then it can that..."
"A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary [if statement] can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire [then statement]."

It is very obvious that you can shoot if stunned/shaken when you give the rule a good solid read.

A second argument is one from Power of the Machine Spirit [only relevant bits quoted]:
"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves flat out or uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted."

Lumbering Behemoth [again only relevant bits quoted]:
"A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire."

The wording comparison is thusly:
A PotMS vehicle "can fire one more weapon" "than normally permitted."
A LRBT vehicle "can fire its turret weapon" in addition to any other weapons "it is usually allowed to fire"

You can see the statements are worded almost identically, with the exception that the Leman Russ may not fire its turret weapon at full BS - except that it has to, because there is no other way it can do it.

I truthfully never thought of it the way you two are. Then again I haven't actually played a game yet, so my grasp of the rules is purely theoretical and has yet to be applied.

That being said, I'm still subconsciously trying to make parallels between the two editions. My only real issue with that perspective is how you shoot ordnance weapons. Seeing as both the rules for snap shot and ordnance weapons are general rules, and contradictory ones at that, and that LB only covers what you may shoot and not the how, I wouldn't know how to deal with ordnance/blast weapons. Are they BS1? Can they even be allowed to shoot? Are they done at full BS? Its a unique case, that's for sure.

I still personally feel that you shouldn't be allowed to shoot the ordnance/blast weapons, in accordance with the rules in snap shooting. The non blast/ordnance weapons aren't an issue anyways, as those can snap shoot regardless.

Either way, this isn't YMDC, so we'll save it for there. Speaking of which, is there a thread on it already?

Blast weapons can't snap shoot anyway so this argument is irrelevant.

Except they have to shoot, per the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and any contrary rule is overridden.

Since there are no rules for snap-firing ordnance weapons, you must assume they fire normally.