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So I haven't had the chance to fight my opponent yet but did try out the list in a couple two v twos with my Guard friend. We won both of them. So, I still have time to prepare against my Grey Knight opponent. Are there any other units that will wreck Pallies?

It's a rather simple equation. There are two things Paladins fear; TH/SS, and S8+ AP2 guns. Draigo mitigates these quite a bit though, so countering him is more important, and there are no hard counters for him really.

Just a thought I was pondering if you were bringing Vulcan. What about the Iron Clad Dreadnaught w/MM HF. Very cost effective AV13 4X Attacks on the charge ST10 AP1 decent short range shooting and can be a mess to the Diagowing if no hammer (usually at least 1 around though). Just run him to support your Sternguard and hopefully they can do clean up. Put one on the ground and drop pod or whatever tactic you can devise. Usually people playing Dragowing are running them right into the enemy because they dont want them all shot up. Hammer does what 8/9 depending on HH at I1. Walk the dread towards the paladins and drop down the sternguard to rapid fire them before the dread assaults (timing if you do this). It all depends on the terrain and the situation of course BUT you will have to have some multi unit fire support to deal with the paladins period. Sternguard are very expensive to use as a suicide squad and thats what you dont want to end up with. What people here are telling you is the Sternguard are good but they are not paladin wrecking machines.

With a death star of Paladins think you focus on keeping away killing the strike squad and dread knight. Lots of vehicles, come of which are vindicators will help.

If you really want to go after him why not create a just as imbalanced list? Lysander then 20 assault termies. Plus anything else you need to hold objectives...

 mikeoif1 wrote:
Just a thought I was pondering if you were bringing Vulcan. What about the Iron Clad Dreadnaught w/MM HF. Very cost effective AV13 4X Attacks on the charge ST10 AP1 decent short range shooting and can be a mess to the Diagowing if no hammer (usually at least 1 around though). Just run him to support your Sternguard and hopefully they can do clean up. Put one on the ground and drop pod or whatever tactic you can devise. Usually people playing Dragowing are running them right into the enemy because they dont want them all shot up. Hammer does what 8/9 depending on HH at I1. Walk the dread towards the paladins and drop down the sternguard to rapid fire them before the dread assaults (timing if you do this). It all depends on the terrain and the situation of course BUT you will have to have some multi unit fire support to deal with the paladins period. Sternguard are very expensive to use as a suicide squad and thats what you dont want to end up with. What people here are telling you is the Sternguard are good but they are not paladin wrecking machines.

10 Paladins will carry anywhere from 2-4 Hammers, meaning 4-8 attacks without charging that can hurt the Dread. These are S10 from double Hammerhand, and then there's Draigo's S7 as well. And Draigo tanks all of the Dreads S10 attacks. So if 2 Hammers, that's 1.77 Hull Points gone with a 50% chance per hit of a pen., 3 Hammers means 2.66 Hull Points with a 50% chance per hit of a pen., and with 4 Hammers that's a dead Dreadnought.

He does like his hammers. I did include a Mortis dreadnought in my list, but am thinking of switching it out. Maybe a Vindi for points left over?

As many Vindicators as you can take would be my number 1 choice for fighting Draigowing.

Vindicators are most assuredly anti draigo. DroP sternguard on his anti tank dreadnight. And then roll 3 vindicators up. Let's see how he like 8-12 instant death wounds with even a bunch getting LoS to the only storm shield on draigo. then he's taking 5+ saves against instant death wounds.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hmmm, in that case Sternguard may not be the best bet.

Assault Terminators will be a better use of the Elite slot. Paladins one hard melee counter is the TH/SS.

I agreed. I was the Draigo-wing player against a guy who had a bunch of sternguard at the top table at tournament recently.....he kept on using the 2+ wound bullets on the pallies to no real effect. See, the Ap3 is there to kill power armor, and 2+ wound shots are there to kill MCs....nothing they have is particularly good at killing 2+ save models.

Also, plasmas aren't going to kill paladins terribly well, they still get a 5+ invo (or better cover) and then FNP. 5+ and then a 5+ yields a slightly better than 50% chance of not taking a wound. Meltas and Lascannons can double them out but a good player will e able to allocate a surprising number of them to Draigo or Paladins who have already taken 1 wound.

Generally speaking, trying to kill Draigo and a full paladin squad is always going to be a fairly frustrating procedure.....it's possible, but is rarely very fun. The real way to beat Draig-wing is usually to try to reach the mission objectives while not really engaging the paladins. Just try to kill everything else.

Are you using random book missions? Keep in mind Draigo's squad can only score one objective. If it's kiill point mission....well, no, you probably won't win that one.

If you really want to kill terminators, though, paladins or otherwise, the real way to do it is just lots and lots of bolters. Dakka saves the day. It will take, on average, 27 bolter shots to take 1 wound off a paladin with FNP. Sounds like a lot? It absolutely is, but on the bright side, wound allocation won't matter much.

If you are going to use Sternguard vs Paladins/multi wound S4 models, Combi-Meltas are probably the way.

Plasma is another option, too, but the Plasma won't ID any Paladins that manages to break through the 5++. Meltas will deny him the FNP, so...

If you are using 30 Sternguard with Vulkan, you can average about 26.6~ hits, 22.2 wounds. He'll stop 1/3 of them (Since if you are deepstriking Sternguard in pods, why would you drop where Draigo is?), so, 15 wounds would get through. Since their invulnerable saves differ, he would have to choose to allocate to Draigo before he rolls his saves. And, since you are hitting paladins with the meltas, he can only reallocate to draigo 1/2 of the time, which still means you could knock out 7-8 paladins... and potentially Draigo, if he rolls poorly on the saves.

Guess it depends on how many points you are playing which would determine how viable it is, but generally, if you are playing against a draigo list, it's going to be high points.

Also, list tailoring against people, especially friends, not nice at all!

(Also, a kitted out 10man squad of paladins w/ draigo is about the same amount of points as the Sternguard + Vulkan in drop pods. just saying! (well, it's like 135 more points, but...)

Chancetragedy wrote:
Vindicators are most assuredly anti draigo. DroP sternguard on his anti tank dreadnight. And then roll 3 vindicators up. Let's see how he like 8-12 instant death wounds with even a bunch getting LoS to the only storm shield on draigo. then he's taking 5+ saves against instant death wounds.

Do you really think he will need to LOS to Draigo. With the Vindicators having to roll up on front and get close, Draigo can easily stand at the front to all 3 and tank the crap out of most of the wounds (he can safely tank 9 on average, which is actually more than the average amount of wounds done per turn between 3 Vindicators). Vindicators are certainly good versus Paladins, but they are no way a hard counter to Draigo, that's just dreaming.

Crazyterran wrote:If you are using 30 Sternguard with Vulkan, you can average about 26.6~ hits, 22.2 wounds. He'll stop 1/3 of them (Since if you are deepstriking Sternguard in pods, why would you drop where Draigo is?)

That's close to 1200pts that rely on not scattering their drop.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Vindicators are most assuredly anti draigo. DroP sternguard on his anti tank dreadnight. And then roll 3 vindicators up. Let's see how he like 8-12 instant death wounds with even a bunch getting LoS to the only storm shield on draigo. then he's taking 5+ saves against instant death wounds.

Do you really think he will need to LOS to Draigo. With the Vindicators having to roll up on front and get close, Draigo can easily stand at the front to all 3 and tank the crap out of most of the wounds (he can safely tank 9 on average, which is actually more than the average amount of wounds done per turn between 3 Vindicators). Vindicators are certainly good versus Paladins, but they are no way a hard counter to Draigo, that's just dreaming.

Crazyterran wrote:If you are using 30 Sternguard with Vulkan, you can average about 26.6~ hits, 22.2 wounds. He'll stop 1/3 of them (Since if you are deepstriking Sternguard in pods, why would you drop where Draigo is?)

That's close to 1200pts that rely on not scattering their drop.

9 wounds from vindicators 66% save rate on draigo. Dies in 1 round maybe 2. And then what?

The circumstances you are putting forward assume two things; (a) is that the Vindicators do 9 wounds, which is above average, and (b) that the Grey Knights player chooses to take them all on Draigo. These are both silly assumptions. Furthermore 9 wounds would bring him down to his last, not kill him you have suggested. On average against an even half-skilled opponent who will spread his Paladins 2" apart, the 3 Vindicators will collectively hit about 8 guys and wounds about 7, meanign Draigo will take about 2 wounds. Then those Paladins turn around an blast one of those Vindicators off the table and the chances drop; chances are something else in the army will pummel another one. The simple fact is, while the best counter for the Paladins, Draigo needs to be handled before it can reach its full potential. And unfortunately, there are very few hard-Draigo counters in the game.

Nvm

There is a wonderful blog called three plus plus is the new black.

There you will find many great articles on how to deal with "rock lists", "paladin lists" and instructionals on tactics that are helpful in this like blocking and bubble wrapping and cutting off and dealing with forces piecemeal.

Just use their search for things like draigo wing or paladin or blocking or rock list.

My advice is do your best not to fight the biggest meanest kid on the block. It's a suckers game, play the objectives and pull him away and neuter the rest of his army. He's got nothing but paladins at 1500. It's nuts! If you really have to play kp missions it gets trickier but you've still got some options.

I also really don't recommend relying on sterns to win you these fights. Maybe to plop beside his strike knights or potentially the dumb MC but they will seem kinda awkward in this battle. Mobility might be your best friend.

Thanks Lucre, I checked out the blog, and it is full of useful tactics and such.

Ok guys, would you guys suggest firing all meltas at the Dreadknights first turn, or doing the Hellfire rounds with the Sternguard and force some saves? Maybe wipe out some Strikers.

Well, I've been playing a few games with alot of Sternguard against Grey Knights. They have done very well, as they held an objective (With Pedro) against countless "Hordes" of knights, including Purifiers, a Strike Squad, and even a Dreadknight. They have done their job, and I will be using them more often.

how exactly does lysander kill draigo? if you issue a challenge he can accept with anyone... including a warding staff. then you're just smacking each other with 2+ saves. the rest of the sternguard would die very quickly, about the best he could do is tarpit them for a while. which regular TH/SS termies could do just as well, if not better.

I think multi-meltas would be your friend against draigo and pals.

However over priced they are right now lascannons are also not a bad idea.

Buy the two for cheaper in the sternguard squads and then use the other bullets for cheaper shots, or devestators. Run either two units of these or combine with a vindi and have them on opposite sides of the board. Draigo cant tank them all and if he look out sirs to draigo it will be 1/2 chance it doesnt work and all of these will be on his invul. Now if he has got a psyker with the re-roll saves, well you are kinda boned. But prey he doesnt get it -_-

If Draigo tanking is the problem one could use nasty trick. Use a Rhino to block line of sight to him, or grant him cover, as this would allow you to only shoot at paladins.

moreorlessrelevant wrote:
If Draigo tanking is the problem one could use nasty trick. Use a Rhino to block line of sight to him, or grant him cover, as this would allow you to only shoot at paladins.

He can still LOS it on a 4+ from the Paladins, but as a general tip, that is brilliant, and something I will have to remember at a tournament next week, as there's a pretty asty Harlistar going to be there with Eldrad, Vect and the Baron in it.

Thanks for that tip! Yes, he does tank, and always makes his look-out-sirs. I'm in the process of finding a way to wipe him out quickly when he deepstrikes in.