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 Krinsath wrote:

 Commander Cain wrote:
I seriously think this will be the dawn of a new age of mini wargaming. Behold the future!

I didn't want to say it for fear of sounding like a frothing fanboy and/or jinxing it, but I do sincerely hope this to be the case.

Same here

Insaniak- It was for a thin 25mm diameter alternative, but still flat.

Love the design, any one knows what the price point is going to be and how many will come in the box?.

I don't know prices, but the storm trooper box on the left is 20 models and the rifle squad box on the right is 10 and has fewer options. This is referring to the picture recently of the guys at WGF with stacks of sprues,

If Mark holds to his previous pattern, the KS price will be about the retail price. I'd wager $35 or so for the 20 man box and $20 for the 10. The accessory sprue that backers get free with every 20 man squad sold on its own for $10. Again, this is speculation based only on his previous KickStarter. This keeps him a bit cheaper than GW while being clearly at least as high of quality, a very good market position overall.

 Alpharius wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

I'm more than ready to find something else other than 40K, especially with the disappointment that is 6th edition.

Of course, you can still play any previous edition if you can convince your friends to as well.

You and I both know that particular argument doesn't really hold much water.
If you're looking to maximize your player pool potential (!) you kind of have to go with the most current edition.
Of course, if you have a great group of like minded friends, that's another matter!

Yeah, I'm not a game-shop-gaming guy anymore, and even when I was it was more like a club that some of us ran there, so all friends, etc. Frankly, I'd assume that convincing your actual friends to play 5th (or 4th or whatever) and not binning your whole Alpha Legion army (I assume) might be easier than convincing them to go in with a whole new system plus associated models, painting, etc etc. I mean, it's not Infinity with a dozen or so models we're talking about here.

True enough I suppose.
!
Still, I'm eagerly awaiting the unveiling of Dreamforge's IRON-CORE!

 Krinsath wrote:
I don't know prices, but the storm trooper box on the left is 20 models and the rifle squad box on the right is 10 and has fewer options. This is referring to the picture recently of the guys at WGF with stacks of sprues,

If Mark holds to his previous pattern, the KS price will be about the retail price. I'd wager $35 or so for the 20 man box and $20 for the 10. The accessory sprue that backers get free with every 20 man squad sold on its own for $10. Again, this is speculation based only on his previous KickStarter. This keeps him a bit cheaper than GW while being clearly at least as high of quality, a very good market position overall.

$35 for 20 of those is a reasonable price, i finally might get my "Dark Eldar" started.

We don't know yet, it may be $40... was $30 per box of 20 via KS, but only if you bought 3.

It's a Steal at $30, retail won't be that low.

 RiTides wrote:
We don't know yet, it may be $40... was $30 per box of 20 via KS, but only if you bought 3.

It's a Steal at $30, retail won't be that low.

Not saying they are ugly models or anything but $40 would push them toward the "GW premium kind of thing" which i am no longer doing.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
We don't know yet, it may be $40... was $30 per box of 20 via KS, but only if you bought 3.

It's a Steal at $30, retail won't be that low.

Not saying they are ugly models or anything but $40 would push them toward the "GW premium kind of thing" which i am no longer doing.

Not really. You're paying 40 for 20 minis as opposed to 30 for 10 (guardsmen) or roughly 37 for 10 (space marines last i checked)

Bare minimum, at 40 bucks for 20, they're still a 1/3 cheaper than GW, for equal/higher quality. Not nearly as much a premium as opposed to starting a GW army.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
We don't know yet, it may be $40... was $30 per box of 20 via KS, but only if you bought 3.

It's a Steal at $30, retail won't be that low.

Not saying they are ugly models or anything but $40 would push them toward the "GW premium kind of thing" which i am no longer doing.

I think you may be pricing yourself out of the market there. Consider that GW generally sells 10 basic troopers for... I was going to say $25, but looking at the site, I see 10 Chaos Space Marines are $37.25(!).

Necron Immortals are 5 for $33. Warriors are 12 for $36.25.

Dark Eldar Wyches and Warriors are both 10 for $29.

Imperial Guard, 10 Catchans/Cadians for $29.00

Grey Knights are 5(!) for $33.00.

Vanilla Space Marines are 10 for $37.25, or 5 for $25 (what? How is that even possible?).

Honestly, when I started responding, I was going to chastize you and point out that 20 Dreamforge troopers at $40 would be 25% cheaper then 20 GW troops at $50... but like you I apparently was thinking of GW prices from years ago.

A more appropriate comparison, such as to tactical marines, would be $40 for 20 compared to $74.50(!), the GW minis having an almost inconceivable 80%+ increase in price!

The only thing even vaugely comparable are 20 DE troops/IG, where 20 runs you $58. Only a 45% premium compared to GW.

Damn, I thought I was getting a good deal with Mark... I didn't realize that GW had gone berserk in the time since I stopped playing...

 Buzzsaw wrote:


The only thing even vaugely comparable are 20 DE troops/IG, where 20 runs you $58. Only a 45% premium compared to GW.

Shouldn't 45% premium be 45% discount?

Yeah, Dreamforge has a lot of potential to explode. (in a good way)

I had a post buried deep back there that compared this KickStarter to building an Imperial Guard army at an even model count and yes, the prices were that stark.

I don't have (or want) knowledge of Mark's finances or where he needs to be on these kits, I'm just basing it on the metal ones I previously purchased via KS; the retail price was essentially the same. That said, the $35 price is point that "makes sense" to me for a box you could potentially be selling tons of to hobbyists. Still, he might need to be at $50 a box for 20, and $2.50 a model is still well below what GW wants. I don't think he'd want to go lower because the people who already paid might be miffed (even if they get the extra accessories and the newcomers don't...human nature and all that). My gut feeling is just right around that $35 mark without the accessories sprue.

But maybe that feeling is just I ate too much at lunch... Mark has certainly been quite surprising over the years, but usually in good ways.

timd wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:


The only thing even vaugely comparable are 20 DE troops/IG, where 20 runs you $58. Only a 45% premium compared to GW.

Shouldn't 45% premium be 45% discount?

Sorry, that was clumsily phrased; going from Dreamforge Stormtroopers to GW "cheap" troops you pay a premium of 45%.

I blame GW for having blasted my brain. They blinded me with price increases!

Seriously, I honestly can't understand how they sell this stuff. 20 IG costs just about as much as a new AAA video game title? That feels like a threshold has been breached. It just is mind boggling.

Regarding the bases being 30mm instead of GW's 25mm, is that really an issue? I know a previous edition of the rulebook stated you could use a larger base, but is that not in the current edition?
Anyway, I also agree with the comments regarding the amazing quality and value in comparison with GW's products. I just don't think GW will do anything about it until it's too late for them.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Regarding the bases being 30mm instead of GW's 25mm, is that really an issue? I know a previous edition of the rulebook stated you could use a larger base, but is that not in the current edition?
Anyway, I also agree with the comments regarding the amazing quality and value in comparison with GW's products. I just don't think GW will do anything about it until it's too late for them.

Tourneys require you to be using proper bases, which I would guess would be the main thing. A lot of tournies are allowing 3rd party minis now so some people will inevitably use these guys to make armies and take them to tournaments.

The other thing is that while it may not seem like a big deal, those larger bases add up over time, and can give "advantages". For example, that extra 5mm may not seem like a big deal with a few guys, but let's say I made a foot guard army using these figures with their 30mm bases. A typical foot guard army has AT LEAST a hundred infantry. Those larger bases let me spread my guys out more and make it harder to hit me with templates.

As for the assault troops, the opposite applies, as they're essentially termis on smaller bases. That might let them slip through areas they normally couldn't, and make it easier for them to deepstrike into areas with smaller bases.

Most people won't care, but if you were playing in more "competitive" areas, it could be made into a big deal.

Sorry if this sounds ridiculous (or ridiculously obvious), but why not just get some GW bases if that’s your biggest concern? It’s not like they’re hard to get hold of. Bitz sites the world over sell ‘em for pennies.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry if this sounds ridiculous (or ridiculously obvious), but why not just get some GW bases if that’s your biggest concern? It’s not like they’re hard to get hold of. Bitz sites the world over sell ‘em for pennies.

That's what i was going to do. GW used to sell their bases direct, but I haven't seen them in my store for ages.

No need to get GW direct bases- there are plenty of 25mm base providers, and they are wayyyy cheaper.

Proxie models are especially so, which are the ones I use. I know not everybody likes their bases, but there are lot of others.

Unlike some of you guys, I actually think GW prices are somewhat reasonable at times- for Units. But, this is mostly because they've been the only game in town.

Now I will have units from Dreamforge, and hopefully some Avatars of War units if they ever up production. GW had been worth it before because they were the only ones who could do plastics, and thus get a huge variety of poses for a large scale game.

Dreamforge selling the troops at $2 a model would still be fantastic, imo, although I was extremely happy to get a bit of a bulk discount buying 3 boxes worth during the kickstarter for $1.50 a model.

The key for me are plastic, and unit options, and Dreamforge is checking both of those boxes (along with being beautiful models, of course).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, while I know the markup on plastic figures is higher, I think this is actually opening the door to smaller companies. Before, only GW could get enough money to make plastic molds. Kickstarter enabled Dreamforge to do this, but it seems like every company is moving to a resin/plastic of Some kind.

This allows them to make more parts and still stay in business, opening the door to unit options, and true competition for GW on things other than hero models.

 RiTides wrote:
Also, while I know the markup on plastic figures is higher, I think this is actually opening the door to smaller companies. Before, only GW could get enough money to make plastic molds. Kickstarter enabled Dreamforge to do this, but it seems like every company is moving to a resin/plastic of Some kind.

This allows them to make more parts and still stay in business, opening the door to unit options, and true competition for GW on things other than hero models.

I think this really captures what can be wonderful about Kickstarter when it works: it lets people with know-how and good ideas compete with the big boys.

The problem with plastic, and the reason GW has been able to capitalize on it so well, is that the costs are all up-front and lump sum. Don't have $10-50,000 on hand? Well, you can't get into the marketplace for injection molded plastic.

Kickstarter helps people like Mark get around this, and I really wish all the best for him and this project. I think it's not only good for him, but for the entire gaming industry.

While Mark is perhaps the very best example here, consider also the women behind the Darkmyre kickstarter. Whatever you think of their products, could we imagine a pair of young ladies launching a line of (I think now) a dozen or more miniatures?

Or a guy out of his apartment in Brooklyn could get an infusion of (as of now) about $400,000?

We really are, I think, on the verge of a real golden age of choice for gamers.

Agreed, Buzzsaw! It's pretty exciting to be a part of

I do like what KS is doing for the gaming universe. Even non mini gaming is getting a boost. Boss Monster card game looks fun as hell and that Shadowrun RPG is something ive been waiting for since super nintendo.

I think Im going with those clear bases that I see on infinity models a lot. When I first saw them I thought "man thats stupid," now its "man thats genius." Plus I saw Panic's DE army and it looked extra sharp.

Also, does being part of the KS allow me to be part of the playtesters? I would like to get in on that and try to show some of my friends that there is life outside of 40k.

I think that everyone from the Not so tough pledge level and onwards are invited to be part of the playtesters if I'm not mistaken, might be mistaken as I'm not sure anymore but I think at a certain level you would get the invite for that.

It states in the pledge level description. I'm "Ready for Serious Stompin!" so I also get the invite as part of my pledge.

I didn't pile on to get the rest of the stuff even though it would have been cheaper for me to do that because I don't play guard and don't need yet another infantry horde. I do like the models and my one day start a force. Till then, I'll be happy with my big stompy titan/knight model.

WANT STORMTROOPERS! When are these available for sale? :(

I'd expect late January, but it all depends on when the shipment arrives and can get to a distributor (or get put up direct).

And the debacle at Defiance seems to be bringing more and more attention to this product. Well deserved attention.

 insaniak wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
Yeah, life is rather hard when the world doesn't cater to your every whim.

The what to the who now?

I wasn't complaining about it being 'hard'. I was mentioning that the design of the bases isn't ideal. Hyperbole can be left at the door... I'm not likely to lose sleep over the whole thing.

Hyperbole?

On the internet?

That's the worst thing since Hitler!

Yep. Leave it to a mod to Godwin the thread.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
GW used to sell their bases direct, but I haven't seen them in my store for ages.

They are still there. Last listing under paints and tools...