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Dreadknights are the business in 6th! Great unit, and yeah, I think that would be an excellent solution. The thing is, typically there will be 2-3 units on the table with a full blown flyer list, and you need to be able to smoke them all turn 1.

I'm taking a Whirlwind, the Dread, and a Libby with Gate to give me potentially 3 units that can reach damn near anywhere on the board and with a little luck, take the units out right away.

It isn't foolproof of course, but it can work and it will make the other guy sweat!

Another treat I've tossed into my list is a Coteaz/Chimera unit for shiggles. Basically, with how many fliers there will be and due to movement constraints, I may be able to tag 1-2 with "I've Been Expecting You" and the 3 Plasma Guns I have in there may get some work done.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Another treat I've tossed into my list is a Coteaz/Chimera unit for shiggles. Basically, with how many fliers there will be and due to movement constraints, I may be able to tag 1-2 with "I've Been Expecting You" and the 3 Plasma Guns I have in there may get some work done.

Hmmmm... The flyers enter the board from reserves at the board edge and that is where you have to be I order to shoot them with Coteaz, not where they end their movement after coming in from reserve.

Are you sure that's how it is played, by my understanding, if the unit ends up 12" away from coteaz after moving on from reserve, you can resolve the shots against them.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Are you sure that's how it is played, by my understanding, if the unit ends up 12" away from coteaz after moving on from reserve, you can resolve the shots against them.

That's how it's ruled in the INAT.

Coteaz rule is a confusing one and one I am trying to get a ruling on for NOVA. By my understanding since Fliers MUST zoom when they are coming on from reserves, you can shoot them if that movement causes them to end up within 12" of Coteaz. If you have a large enough army footprint you can spread out and corral the fliers into Coteaz's zone, assuming its ruled you can do so. I think this could cause major headaches for Flier lists, its worked out a bit when I have gotten the chance to use it. This is my TAC GK/SW list that I think can handle most flier lists:
Coteaz 100
Rune Priest Jaws/Living Lightning 100
5 WG 4 Combi-melta, 1 TDA w/ Cyclone 155
10 Purifier Squad 4 Psycannon, 2 Hammer, Razorback w/ Psybolts, SL 341
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
10 Strikes 2 Psycannon, 1 Razorback w/ Psybolts 270
5 Strikes 1 Psycannon, 1 Razorback w/ Psybolts, SL 161
5 Purgation Squad 2 Psycannon, 2 Incinerator, Razorback w/ Psybolts 190
5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles 115
Aegis Defence Line Quadgun 100
1992

The big footprint is one of the big advantages. It has over 60 infantry and 8 vehicles with which to spread out. Coteaz and 10 Purifiers sit in the middle. If you measure it out right depending on the deployment you can place Coteaz right in the middle of the zooming movement (18 inch spread on movement, so put coteaz in around 27" up from where they come in and you will be able to hit them whether or not they go 18 or the full 36).

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Another treat I've tossed into my list is a Coteaz/Chimera unit for shiggles. Basically, with how many fliers there will be and due to movement constraints, I may be able to tag 1-2 with "I've Been Expecting You" and the 3 Plasma Guns I have in there may get some work done.

BTW, you cannot be inside a transport to use this ability. Firepoints only let you draw LOS for shooting attacks, not for other special rules like trying to "spot" the target with I've Been Expecting You.

An interesting experiment. I'd be curious to see the Necron Air Force pitted against its worst land-bound matchup (9*Hydras?), for science.

AlexHolker wrote:An interesting experiment. I'd be curious to see the Necron Air Force pitted against its worst land-bound matchup (9*Hydras?), for science.

Not even a concern. Flyers will get the alpha strike and cripple those hydras. Just 1 doom scythe alone can potentially wipe out 3 hydras with its deathray.

More importantly, the necron air force is a balanced powerful build that will work against any army (in other words, it is a really good Take All Comers list). A 9-hydra guard build is a tailored build which will fail against most of the other competitive tournament builds.

As far as flyer builds, there is nothing even remotely close to the Necron Air Force right now. Even IG vendetta-spam won't hold a candle to it, even if you take a double-FOC 6-vendetta build.

The Gallon Challenge and 40k together at last! This could be the next hot format for the hobby! You guys are crazy.

jy2 wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:An interesting experiment. I'd be curious to see the Necron Air Force pitted against its worst land-bound matchup (9*Hydras?), for science.

Not even a concern. Flyers will get the alpha strike and cripple those hydras. Just 1 doom scythe alone can potentially wipe out 3 hydras with its deathray.

More importantly, the necron air force is a balanced powerful build that will work against any army (in other words, it is a really good Take All Comers list). A 9-hydra guard build is a tailored build which will fail against most of the other competitive tournament builds.

I am aware of that. Consider it a hypothetical: if the metagame degenerated to the point where Necron Air Forces ruled the Earth, could a rogue list designed specifically to compete in that environment actually come out on top?

Do you guys see any build currently that can compete with Cronflyers?

Go nuts if you have too, Im interested in the possibilities more than anything else.

A drop pod heavy list could prob give it issues for the simple fact of dropping in and trying to kill off what is one the board turn 1. However against necrons that is easier said then done.

Ratius wrote:Do you guys see any build currently that can compete with Cronflyers?

Go nuts if you have too, Im interested in the possibilities more than anything else.

One of those Coteaz henchmen lists with psybacks, rifleman dreads and an allied force of 2 Nightscythes and a Doomscythe. Maybe a list with 2 Stormravens and a Stormtalon. The Stormravens can use power of the machine spirit to twin-link multi melta one flyer and twin-link lascannon another. Of course if your flyers are on the table first you are dead.

Ratius wrote:Do you guys see any build currently that can compete with Cronflyers?

Go nuts if you have too, Im interested in the possibilities more than anything else.

Yeah, I think there are "balanced" TAC builds that can but even those builds will have an uphill battle.

Here is an example of a 2K army that I think can compete (and this was the list I was planning to take against Cron Air)


Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread
Psyfleman Vendread

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, upgrades, rhino
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, upgrades, rhino
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, upgrades, rhino
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, upgrades, rhino
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, upgrades, rhino
5x Strikers - 1x Psycannon, psyback

Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread


Now I still think the GK's will be the underdog, but I think they have a decent chance.


Another army I think Cron Air will have trouble against is the Green Tide:


Big Mek - KFF
Warboss

3 squads of Lootas
6x30 ork boyz

3x Dakkajets

Honestly, I don't know how many points this is, but I think the flyers will have problems against them.

AlexHolker wrote:

jy2 wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:An interesting experiment. I'd be curious to see the Necron Air Force pitted against its worst land-bound matchup (9*Hydras?), for science.

Not even a concern. Flyers will get the alpha strike and cripple those hydras. Just 1 doom scythe alone can potentially wipe out 3 hydras with its deathray.

More importantly, the necron air force is a balanced powerful build that will work against any army (in other words, it is a really good Take All Comers list). A 9-hydra guard build is a tailored build which will fail against most of the other competitive tournament builds.

I am aware of that. Consider it a hypothetical: if the metagame degenerated to the point where Necron Air Forces ruled the Earth, could a rogue list designed specifically to compete in that environment actually come out on top?

I don't believe in tailored lists.

However, if I had to tailor a list against Cron Air, it would be a combination of GK's w/IG allies. This is assuming no Forgeworld


Coteaz
CCS - Officer of the Fleet - 80

Psyfleman Vendread - 195
Psyfleman Vendread
Psyfleman Vendread

3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
Veteran Squad - 70

Vendetta

Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman
Psyfleman
2x Hydras - 150

Aegis + Quad-guns - 100

1992

This will give them a run for their money.

I'm honestly wondering how well a Tau gunline would do. 6x 12 firewarriors w/ Shas'ui a markerlight + an Ethereal bomb to get preffered enemy across everything.

72-144 S5 TL shots comes out to 4-8 glances :/ though with the volume of bodies they may be hard for airforce to kill off.

Not sure if this has been debated or not, but can a markerlight increase the BS of a snapfire?

Would you drop those Rhinos in that Crowe list JY?
You're most likely going to be at a manouevering disadvantage anyway, they provide scant protection VS the Flyers and could even hinder your own forces (with wrecks and exploding possible killing off the odd guy or two). Plus potentially 5 VPs conceded.
Would a foot gunline sort of work better, saving 175 points on the Rhinos for other units/upgrades?
Perhaps a few aegis lines and setup "mini bunkers" for the footsloggers? Aegis lines have quad support right too?


Could you guys also post the Cron list here in terms of the army build, wanna run a fun little thread for it.

When the codex came out there were several of us talking about how nasty this would be in 5th, and then 6th came out and just took it over the top (I think I pm'd back and forth with jy2 about it a bit). I don't think it's a particularly cheesy army (no more than any other spam army), it's just that the tools designed to balance it just aren't in the game yet...but they are coming. Skyfire is not that scary for it, and interceptor is not either - if available in decent quantities on the right tools, it will nicely balance the force...but when you start seeing units showing up in force with both rules and decent range, that will be the death knell of Cron Air.

Personally, while I still run 6 scythes, it's a much more diversified force that eliminates any real possibility of getting wiped on turn one, and is a lot more fun to play (and probably play against.)

EDIT: and yeah, foot slogging lists tend to be tougher to deal with for mass scythes, but the crons will still pretty much have control of the game.

May I ask what the list is?
I fear people will bring it to my local hobby shop next week for the tourney .

Cron Air is top dog right now, IMO. Not much can compete with it.

I think a mix of AA, the ability to hit the units on the board, board control and movement are really the only things you have to counter them with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sencho wrote:The Gallon Challenge and 40k together at last! This could be the next hot format for the hobby! You guys are crazy.

Yes. I think that is probably true! hahaha

@Ratius

We're messing around with some options now, but it is a tough task to do and still be good against other units as well.

@Space Pup

Simple list.

Imotekh

warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe

Deathmarks x 5 with Night Scythe
Deathmarks x 5 with Night Scythe

Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe

SpacePup1987 wrote:May I ask what the list is?
I fear people will bring it to my local hobby shop next week for the tourney .

I wouldn't get overly concerned right away as this is a considerable amount of money to drop on an army that has a good chance of becoming obsolete in 6 months to a year. Hybrid armies, or something like what jy2 is running in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/466541.page are probably far more likely. Of course there are plenty of people out there that wouldn't think twice about dropping $350-450 just so they can win, regardless of if there is any fun involved, but I think that they are in the minority.

Reecius wrote:Cron Air is top dog right now, IMO. Not much can compete with it.

I think a mix of AA, the ability to hit the units on the board, board control and movement are really the only things you have to counter them with.

I agree. Once good AA units become more common, the main strength of this army will start falling apart.

BlueDagger wrote:I'm honestly wondering how well a Tau gunline would do. 6x 12 firewarriors w/ Shas'ui a markerlight + an Ethereal bomb to get preffered enemy across everything.

72-144 S5 TL shots comes out to 4-8 glances :/ though with the volume of bodies they may be hard for airforce to kill off.

Not sure if this has been debated or not, but can a markerlight increase the BS of a snapfire?

IMO, that list wouldn't do very well.

The "ethereal bomb" is a one-trick pony that any experienced general will know to ignore until they are perhaps one of the last targets around. And even with 144 shots, it is at most 4-6 glances. Keep in mind that PE only lets you re-roll 1's and not the entire miss.

Meanwhile, the flyers will wipe out possibly 2+ units per turn and now you are at the point of diminishing returns.

Markerlights can increase your BS, but you still fire at BS1 no matter how much it increases it by. Fixed numbers take precedence over addition and multiplication. Thus, markerlight will increase your BS but when you fire snapshots, you are then reduced to BS1.



If I had to make a balanced Tau army that has a chance to take on the scythe-crons, I would do a combo Tau/Ork army. It would look roughly like this (don't have my codices with me so not sure on points).

Shas'el - Fireknife (Plasma+missiles) w/upgrades
Warboss w/PK + stuff

3x Deathrains (TL-Missiles)
3x Deathrains (TL-Missiles)
3x Fireknives
5x Lootas

6x Fire Warriors
10x Kroots, 5x Hounds
10x Kroots, 5x Hounds
30x Shoota Orks
30x Shoota Orks

Dakkajet
5x Pathfinders - Devilfish

2x Broadsides - shield drones
2x Broadsides - shield drones
2x Broadsides - shield drones

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns

(If this is over 2K, then drop the lootas or perhaps the pathfinders.)

Ratius wrote:Would you drop those Rhinos in that Crowe list JY?
You're most likely going to be at a manouevering disadvantage anyway, they provide scant protection VS the Flyers and could even hinder your own forces (with wrecks and exploding possible killing off the odd guy or two). Plus potentially 5 VPs conceded.
Would a foot gunline sort of work better, saving 175 points on the Rhinos for other units/upgrades?
Perhaps a few aegis lines and setup "mini bunkers" for the footsloggers? Aegis lines have quad support right too?


Could you guys also post the Cron list here in terms of the army build, wanna run a fun little thread for it.

I feel so naked without them.

If those purifiers were cheaper, I would consider it. But the fact is that they are so darn expensive that you have to protect your investment. Because without them, those purifiers will die even faster!

But mainly, I need them for mobility purposes. Many people still do not realize how important the Movement phase is. If you don't have mobility, you are at a disadvantage every single time you play an objectives-based mission. Sure, vehicle rules have been nerfed slightly, but there are some "perks" such as you can still fire even when moving at cruising speed, shaken or stunned. Moreover, now glancing your vehicle does not stop it from functioning unless you glance it to death.

If I run strikers or terminators, then I wouldn't mind running them on foot. However, with purifiers, I still think mechanized is the best way to run them.

The marker lights at least can reduce the jink save if any he chooses to make so it'll do some good at least. Personally having guide or divination powers from eldar allies will help Tau alot more than the etheral bomb. Friend of mine does very well with tau + eldar with insane mobility during his assault phase using jetbikes and jump suits. Very annoying to fight with any LOS terrain and lacking barrage weapons.

I'm personally really hoping that the next DA release will have cyclone missle launchers get flakk

Bunch of terminators in 4+ ruins (possibly bolstered to 3+) will be hard to knock out by just air forces. It'll really then just come down to volume.

Maelstrom808 wrote:When the codex came out there were several of us talking about how nasty this would be in 5th, and then 6th came out and just took it over the top (I think I pm'd back and forth with jy2 about it a bit). I don't think it's a particularly cheesy army (no more than any other spam army), it's just that the tools designed to balance it just aren't in the game yet...but they are coming. Skyfire is not that scary for it, and interceptor is not either - if available in decent quantities on the right tools, it will nicely balance the force...but when you start seeing units showing up in force with both rules and decent range, that will be the death knell of Cron Air.

Personally, while I still run 6 scythes, it's a much more diversified force that eliminates any real possibility of getting wiped on turn one, and is a lot more fun to play (and probably play against.)

EDIT: and yeah, foot slogging lists tend to be tougher to deal with for mass scythes, but the crons will still pretty much have control of the game.

Yeah, looking back now at the list you sent to me, it is much, much scarier now than it was back then.

Going forward, newer armies and units will be equipped with better tools to deal with flyer armies. However, in no ways will this be the "death knell" of Cron Air, not by a long shot. Flyers are here to stay for good and they will still be a strong and very competitive army. They just won't be as fearsome then as they are right now, but you will still have trouble beating them with a Take All Comers (TAC) list that is not more customized to fight flyers.

The only way to take away their control of the game is to flood the board with bodies in order to limit their movement. That's why I think horde armies (and especially fearless horde armies without single-point-of-failure units like tervigons) can still do alright against flyer armies despite their inability to really shoot them down.

jy2 wrote:Yeah, looking back now at the list you sent to me, it is much, much scarier now than it was back then.

Going forward, newer armies and units will be equipped with better tools to deal with flyer armies. However, in no ways will this be the "death knell" of Cron Air, not by a long shot. Flyers are here to stay for good and they will still be a strong and very competitive army. They just won't be as fearsome then as they are right now, but you will still have trouble beating them with a Take All Comers (TAC) list that is not more customized to fight flyers.

The only way to take away their control of the game is to flood the board with bodies in order to limit their movement. That's why I think horde armies (and especially fearless horde armies without single-point-of-failure units like tervigons) can still do alright against flyer armies despite their inability to really shoot them down.

...and those were "first drafts", so to speak.

Agreed on the hordes, having fought green tide with scythe spam...not fun.

Maybe death knell was a bit strong, but once skyfire and interceptor become common, it starts to become a much more balanced list, and guns with both rules are just brutal against this army.

There are the standard things that can help with reducing his alpha strike. Minimize his ability to nuke your units on the turn he comes in, so on your turn you have more guns available to lay into him with. Going second and reserving your AA is not a bad place to start. What you do leave on the table, get as much of it out of LOS as possible. Also, watch for chances to force him to overshoot (if he moves within 24" of a unit, move up to him to force him to fly over that unit on the next turn, just watch out that he can't turn into you with other scythes on the board).

If in that second turn you can survive the alpha strike relatively intact, knock out 2-3 scythes (preferably doom scythes), and force a few more off the board (or at least out of firing position for a couple turns), you should at least have a fighting chance. Just hope GW doesn't drag their feet on getting the other flier and AA units out there.

I laughed pretty hard at the end of the first turn.

Nothing compared to the end though. I was in tears. XD

All that milk... There were no winners in this game only losers. XD

Glad you guys liked it! haha, we were pissing ourselves!

Twin linked barf! hahaha

DarthDiggler wrote:

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Are you sure that's how it is played, by my understanding, if the unit ends up 12" away from coteaz after moving on from reserve, you can resolve the shots against them.

That's how it's ruled in the INAT.

Just to clarify, that ruling in the INAT is basically just a clarification on GW's own ruling in the Grey Knight FAQ. That GW FAQ answer pretty clearly indicates that you're supposed to check range at the point the model enters the board from Reserve, not where it finishes its movement upon entering from Reserves.

Gee, thanks for the balance in the game GW.

Guess that´s what you get when you have a bunch of retards balance the game based on cinematics...