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 Prince_of_Crows wrote:
I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).

Wait, you're joking right ? They should have rushed into a 1000000 traitors with a mere pocketknife (like Vulkan) and then they would have "been loyal" to you? Don't get me wrong I' like Salamanders...but c'mon

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Prince_of_Crows wrote:
I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).

Wait, you're joking right ? They should have rushed into a 1000000 traitors with a mere pocketknife (like Vulkan) and then they would have "been loyal" to you? Don't get me wrong I' like Salamanders...but c'mon

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that comment, but if you mean about raven guard fleeing the battle where vulkan went and did something stupid, Corax didn't allow for himself to be blinded by rage and he took a tactical decision: leave the battlefield before were wiped out to the man. Vulkan got angry and instead of doing the smart thing and replenished his losses, he did the human thing which was lashed out when angry at traitors.

 Prince_of_Crows wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Prince_of_Crows wrote:
I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).

Wait, you're joking right ? They should have rushed into a 1000000 traitors with a mere pocketknife (like Vulkan) and then they would have "been loyal" to you? Don't get me wrong I' like Salamanders...but c'mon

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that comment, but if you mean about raven guard fleeing the battle where vulkan went and did something stupid, Corax didn't allow for himself to be blinded by rage and he took a tactical decision: leave the battlefield before were wiped out to the man. Vulkan got angry and instead of doing the smart thing and replenished his losses, he did the human thing which was lashed out when angry at traitors.

O sorry - I thought that you judge actions of the RG in that battle not the NL- my mistake, but there are lot's of salamanders fans who think that RG were cowards leaving battlefield....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Prince_of_Crows wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Prince_of_Crows wrote:
I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).

Wait, you're joking right ? They should have rushed into a 1000000 traitors with a mere pocketknife (like Vulkan) and then they would have "been loyal" to you? Don't get me wrong I' like Salamanders...but c'mon

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that comment, but if you mean about raven guard fleeing the battle where vulkan went and did something stupid, Corax didn't allow for himself to be blinded by rage and he took a tactical decision: leave the battlefield before were wiped out to the man. Vulkan got angry and instead of doing the smart thing and replenished his losses, he did the human thing which was lashed out when angry at traitors.

O sorry - I thought that you judge actions of the RG in that battle not the NL- my mistake, but there are lot's of salamanders fans who think that RG were cowards leaving battlefield....

I guess they can be called cowards, but Corax's actions of fleeing the battlefield weren't cowardice they were tactical decision which must of taken a lot of self control not to just see red and go berserk. I guess Iron hand fans feel the same way as the Salamander fans towards the raven guard. But no, I was talking about night lords in my previous post.

I think from the variety of names thrown into the pot, it could be argued that all of the Primarchs, with the possible exceptions of Lorgar and Magnus, were excellent tacticians. Even Angron is basically Spartacus, and that guy was no slouch. So we can probably comfortably call this a tie.

Now, if we consider strategy instead, it should be pretty obvious that Guilliman and Horus are the penultimate "big picture" guys.

And before Lorgar and Magnus fans get all mad, these two were scholars and mentors in a fraternity of soldiers and generals. Lorgar instilled his followers with zealous fervor and blind conviction (their "tactics" consist of never retreating no matter what in the face of certain death, because they are so certain of their cause), while Magnus was so OP, tactics were largely irrelevant (Ahriman had to chastise his brothers to not neglect their martial training just because their powers made it so easy, and the best among them maybe had the raw power of one of Magnus' toenail clippings).

To be fair Magnus and his Legion also sort of had reliable precognition that they could use in battle, as well as the ability to telepathically know what your enemy is doing.

Tactics aren't really necessary with that kind of gak.

Which may be what you meant by saying he was too OP for it.

Guilliman is my vote just for the fact that many of the Primarchs viewed him as such and he did conduct some of the Imperiums largest campaigns during the great crusade and afterwards during the scouring.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
To be fair Magnus and his Legion also sort of had reliable precognition that they could use in battle, as well as the ability to telepathically know what your enemy is doing.

Tactics aren't really necessary with that kind of gak.

Which may be what you meant by saying he was too OP for it.

Exactly. OP = overpowered.

They knew what you're going to do before you do it, they have guys reading your mind when you try to be tricky, they have instant communications with their own telepaths, the Paavoni can erase any injury that isn't immediately lethal, and they can crush tanks and shoot lightning and fireballs with their minds that make boltguns look like firecrackers. They needed about as much tactical acumen as you need playing Dawn of War on god mode. Is it any wonder Legions that fought beside them (Death Guard, Wolves) crapped their pants and went running to Nikea to testify?

 Omegus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
To be fair Magnus and his Legion also sort of had reliable precognition that they could use in battle, as well as the ability to telepathically know what your enemy is doing.

Tactics aren't really necessary with that kind of gak.

Which may be what you meant by saying he was too OP for it.

Exactly. OP = overpowered.

They knew what you're going to do before you do it, they have guys reading your mind when you try to be tricky, they have instant communications with their own telepaths, the Paavoni can erase any injury that isn't immediately lethal, and they can crush tanks and shoot lightning and fireballs with their minds that make boltguns look like firecrackers. They needed about as much tactical acumen as you need playing Dawn of War on god mode. Is it any wonder Legions that fought beside them (Death Guard, Wolves) crapped their pants and went running to Nikea to testify?

Yep in the end they crapped - in their corpses...

The Wolves made short work of the PDF in their parade uniforms, but once they ran into the actual Thousand Sons, despite all of their advantages (Sisters and Custodes back-up), the Wolves were on the losing side of that battle. The same thing happened on Shrike. In both cases, the Wolves only got back on the offensive once Russ showed up with his psychic howl and waves of mutants.

 Omegus wrote:
The Wolves made short work of the PDF in their parade uniforms, but once they ran into the actual Thousand Sons, despite all of their advantages (Sisters and Custodes back-up), the Wolves were on the losing side of that battle. The same thing happened on Shrike. In both cases, the Wolves only got back on the offensive once Russ showed up with his psychic howl and waves of mutants.

You show only advantages of the TS - and what about flashchange ???Be fair...
And what's the point of God mode (like T'kar, the only TS who I like ) when you are dead after it wears off

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
The Wolves made short work of the PDF in their parade uniforms, but once they ran into the actual Thousand Sons, despite all of their advantages (Sisters and Custodes back-up), the Wolves were on the losing side of that battle. The same thing happened on Shrike. In both cases, the Wolves only got back on the offensive once Russ showed up with his psychic howl and waves of mutants.

You show only advantages of the TS - and what about flashchange ???Be fair...

Like we've discussed before, it is the truth if you take what is on the page at face value. Without the arrival of Russ, backup from the Sisters and the Custodes, or the event of the flesh change, the Sons would have either one in the bag pretty easily.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
The Wolves made short work of the PDF in their parade uniforms, but once they ran into the actual Thousand Sons, despite all of their advantages (Sisters and Custodes back-up), the Wolves were on the losing side of that battle. The same thing happened on Shrike. In both cases, the Wolves only got back on the offensive once Russ showed up with his psychic howl and waves of mutants.

You show only advantages of the TS - and what about flashchange ???Be fair...

Like we've discussed before, it is the truth if you take what is on the page at face value. Without the arrival of Russ, backup from the Sisters and the Custodes, or the event of the flesh change, the Sons would have either one in the bag pretty easily.

Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please

DarthMarko wrote:
Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please

I am not sure as to what your comment even means. Where have I spoken to you in anything other than an adult manner? Also, was using terminology like that necessary, once again I am not sure what you are getting at.

The Sisters of Battle weren't even present on Prospero, if you mean the Sisters of Silence then their role was to use their blankness to prevent the Thousand Sons from using their powers, which they did and the Custodians did their fair share of 'Sons whuppin'.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:
Like we've discussed before, it is the truth if you take what is on the page at face value. Without the arrival of Russ, backup from the Sisters and the Custodes, or the event of the flesh change, the Sons would have either one in the bag pretty easily.

Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please

I am not sure as to what your comment even means. Where have I spoken to you in anything other than an adult manner? Also, was using terminology like that necessary, once again I am not sure what you are getting at.

The Sisters of Battle weren't even present on Prospero, if you mean the Sisters of Silence then their role was to use their blankness to prevent the Thousand Sons from using their powers, which they did and the Custodians did their fair share of 'Sons whuppin'.

 DarthMarko wrote:

Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please

That's the statement you use to preface a request for a mature discussion? Immediately after talking about defecating on corpses? Even coming from a self-admitted troll, the irony is staggering.

 Omegus wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please

That's the statement you use to preface a request for a mature discussion? Immediately after talking about defecating on corpses? Even coming from a self-admitted troll, the irony is staggering.

Dude just read your posts...Trolling is insulting word for the trolls on your behalf
and fact is that the wolves did defile corpses when TS escaped...

 DarthMarko wrote:
Fact - there is to much "IF" in your equation, like you're writing a program ( if it wasn't for a flashchange???wtf )that is why I'm teling you to speak as adult
And if you love your legion you love it with all it's flaws -FC was their biggest weaknes and their dowfnall on Prospero...
P.S. SoS sorry my mistake

Perhaps you should read the post a bit closer, I haven't said IF anywhere. I am actually using the details we have been provided in the various books, are you?

I am recognising that the flesh change was an issue. Here's an IF for you - IF the Sons didn't have the flesh change, then they really would have whipped the Wolves in both circumstances.

Their downfall on Prospero was their Primarch and him shielding the approach of the Wolves fleet. If, oh damn there's another one, Magnus had not been so caught up in his own self worth, he might have formed an adequate defence of Prospero.

So you are telling me that the Space Wolves would have won the day on Shrike without the help of Russ and the Thousand Sons nearly falling to the change, also that on Prospero they would have won without the support of the Sisters of Silence and Custodian and the Thousand Sons falling to their own bad genetics?




Edit: Oh wait I do say If, if you take the page at face value, which means, if you have read the book properly you could see that the Wolves got beat up pretty bad both times.

Thought the whole thing about the Lion was his awesome tactical skills. That and the fact that he has zero people skills.

Not that Guilliman is bad with tactics, but he is more of a strategic commander type. An Eisenhower to the Lion's Patton.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Fact - there is to much "IF" in your equation, like you're writing a program ( if it wasn't for a flashchange???wtf )that is why I'm teling you to speak as adult
And if you love your legion you love it with all it's flaws -FC was their biggest weaknes and their dowfnall on Prospero...
P.S. SoS sorry my mistake

Perhaps you should read the post a bit closer, I haven't said IF anywhere. I am actually using the details we have been provided in the various books, are you?

I am recognising that the flesh change was an issue. Here's an IF for you - IF the Sons didn't have theflesh change, then they really would have whipped the Wolves in both circumstances.

Their downfall on Prospero was their Primarch and him shielding the approach of the Wolves fleet. If, oh damn there's another one, Magnus had not been so caught up in his own self worth, he might have formed an adequate defence of Prospero.

So you are telling me that the Space Wolves would have won the day on Shrike without the help of Russ and the Thousand Sons nearly falling to the change, also that on Prospero they would have won without the support of the Sisters of Silence and Custodian and the Thousand Sons falling to their own bad genetics?

No they would be choked to death on Shrike,I admit that - but bringing SoS is like bringing a bolter, you don't fight a psyker with a stick, and btw in TS how much is the role of SoS ?Not so much..because Russ didn't want to bring many...Custodians? T'kar IIRC is killing them with ease even braging about it...All I'm saying that they didn't had any major role in burning of Prospero - flashchange did - if it wasn't for that - they would repeled the wolves and any other legion - but again,please don't even mention that again
- they have a god mode, afterwards they are dead...what's the point of god mode then?

First of all, it's the flesh change, not flashchange. Second, it wasn't what lost the day for the Thousand Sons, but rather the huge concentration of psychic power/the warp itself spilling over into reality that caused their powers to dial up to 11 and their familiars became powerful enough to exert more influence/take over. When T'Kar went all Chaos Spawn, he was still fully in control of his powers and was crushing Wolves left and right, but realized what he became and chose to let himself be destroyed.

Russ didn't want to bring many Sisters? This is pure conjecture. No major role? Until one of the TS (can't remember his name) figured out they were there and started sniping them, the TS were significantly impacted by the anti psychic bubbles. As for Custodes, they are quite capable warriors, and they weren't dying in any greater numbers than the Wolves they accompanied. And where did this corpse desecration happen? I don't recall that, and it certainly doesn't seem in character for the Wolves to do something like that. Burn the bodies? Sure. But desecrate them? What are they, Night Lords? The Wolves are donkey-caves, but they aren't evil.

And you are a troll because you admitted to being a troll. You said you specifically start arguments and make inflammatory statements because you "feed off of it". This thread is a perfect example. It was a discussion about tactical acumen of primarchs, and you turned it into another SW vs. TS argument.

Fact is, no one won that battle. The Wolves ended up helping Horus's cause, and lost many men and some esteem in the eyes of Malcador. The Emperor lost many Custodians and Sisters, and more importantly, an entire loyal Legion who would have been ideal for combating the upcoming Chaos incursion. The Thousand Sons lost, well, everything. What's the point of god mode? The point is that Tzeench was screwing with them the entire time, from the moment the Primarchs were spirited away, to the instance Russ got that "lucky" shot in. And the point is that their powers made the Sons arrogant and short-sighted (ironic for a Legion who praised clairvoyance and pre-cognition), and are the reason why Magnus probably wasn't that great a tactician by Primarch standards, which is the topic for this thread.

 Omegus wrote:
First of all, it's the flesh change, not flashchange. Second, it wasn't what lost the day for the Thousand Sons, but rather the huge concentration of psychic power/the warp itself spilling over into reality that their caused their powers to dial up to 11 and their familiars became powerful enough to exert more influence/take over. When T'Kar went all Chaos Spawn, he was still fully in control of his powers and was crushing Wolves left and right, but realized what he became and chose to let himself be destroyed.

Russ didn't want to bring many Sisters? This is pure conjecture. No major role? Until one of the TS (can't remember his name) figured out they were there and started sniping them, the TS were significantly impacted by the anti psychic bubbles. As for Custodes, they are quite capable warriors, and they weren't dying in any greater numbers than the Wolves they accompanied. And where did this corpse desecration happen? I don't recall that, and it certainly doesn't seem in character for the Wolves to do something like that. Burn the bodies? Certainly? But desecrate them? What are they, Night Lords?

And you are a troll because you admitted to being a troll. You said you specifically start arguments and make inflammatory statements because you "feed off of it". This thread is a perfect example. It was a discussion about tactical acumen of primarchs, and you turned it into another SW vs. TS argument.

Fact is, no one won that battle. The Wolves ended up helping Horus's cause, and lost many men and some esteem in the eyes of Malcador. The Emperor lost many Custodians and Sisters, and more importantly, an entire loyal Legion who would have been ideal for combating the upcoming Chaos incursion. The Thousand Sons lost, well, everything. What's the point of god mode? The point is that Tzeench was screwing with them the entire time, from the moment the Primarchs were spirited away, to the instance Russ got that "lucky" shot in. And the point is that their powers made the Sons arrogant and short-sighted (ironic for a Legion who praised clairvoyance and pre-cognition), and are the reason why Magnus probably wasn't that great a tactician by Primarch standards, which is the topic for this thread.

That lucky shot of Russ - according to old codex was very deliberate and landed right where he intended to (yeah,he knew Magnus and his weaknes)...they changed it later so that it looks like wild brute punch & conspiracy theory....
And FACT - SW didn't have much corpses after Prospero - they lost much more in the The Great Scouring...and I didnt start this - you did - by constnantly exalting TS....,

I mentioned Magnus as being relatively terrible at tactics because he was so OP psychically. That's not exalting the TS. I'm not a fan of the TS except for Ahriman and Phosis T'kar (the only ones who possessed some humility). I fly the Tzeench banner because I am a fan of power, pure and simple.

And yes, that's why I put "lucky" in quotation marks. Ahriman describes the attack as a flailing, blind lunge that "just happened" to hit Magnus' one vulnerable spot, but he's not exactly a brawler and is a potentially biased onlooker. The SW codex describes it as a deliberate move, but as with all codices, any truth is tinged with hyperbolic propaganda. The real truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Though off-balance and being pushed back, Russ drew his experience as a brawler, and took a calculated risk to make the best of a bad situation. Emelianenko used to do the same crap all the time. He'd be getting beat down, then throw a seemingly wild and aimless haymayker; sometimes all he caught was air, other times he popped them in the chin and that was all she wrote. In either case, luck had nothing to do with it, one way or the other. Every one on that planet was Tzeench's puppet, even if they didn't know it. Now THAT's power.

 Omegus wrote:
I mentioned Magnus as being relatively terrible at tactics because he was so OP psychically. That's not exalting the TS. I'm not a fan of the TS except for Ahriman and Phosis T'kar (the only ones who possessed some humility). I fly the Tzeench banner because I am a fan of power, pure and simple.

And yes, that's why I put "lucky" in quotation marks. Ahriman describes the attack as a flailing, blind lunge that "just happened" to hit Magnus' one vulnerable spot, but he's not exactly a brawler and is a potentially biased onlooker. The SW codex describes it as a deliberate move, but as with all codices, any truth is tinged with hyperbolic propaganda. The real truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Though off-balance and being pushed back, Russ drew his experience as a brawler, and took a calculated risk to make the best of a bad situation. Emelianenko used to do the same crap all the time. He'd be getting beat down, then throw a seemingly wild and aimless haymayker; sometimes all he caught was air, other times he popped them in the chin and that was all she wrote. In either case, luck had nothing to do with it, one way or the other. Every one on that planet was Tzeench's puppet, even if they didn't know it. Now THAT's power.

So peace in the future brother ??? Sorry for my overreaction but I noticed that you always like to put down certain pup chapter in your posts ( calling them obidiant dogs,snow flakes etc )...and I don't like that very much -
off topic - I'm more of a Cro cop fan than Emelianenko:-)

 DarthMarko wrote:
Sorry for my overreaction but I noticed that you always like to put down certain pup chapter in your posts ( calling them obidiant dogs,snow flakes etc )...and I don't like that very much -

Here's a pro-tip for being on the Internet: Don't take things so personally. In the end, we're only talking about plastic toy soldiers, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. That includes what people think about the Space Wolves, even if those opinions doesn't agree with your own opinions of them.

Back to topic: Im surprised the Lion has received so many votes for "best Primarch tactician". I understand there's a number of sources that state he's the best tactician, but I don't think I've seen any examples of his tactical acumen.

 Ronin wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Sorry for my overreaction but I noticed that you always like to put down certain pup chapter in your posts ( calling them obidiant dogs,snow flakes etc )...and I don't like that very much -

Here's a pro-tip for being on the Internet: Don't take things so personally. In the end, we're only talking about plastic toy soldiers, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. That includes what people think about the Space Wolves, even if those opinions doesn't agree with your own opinions of them.

Back to topic: Im surprised the Lion has received so many votes for "best Primarch tactician". I understand there's a number of sources that state he's the best tactician, but I don't think I've seen any examples of his tactical acumen.

Void war with the NL maybe ? Hm not so much.....

There is no doubt in my mind that Lupercal is the best general out of them all. Although I do think that Guilliman has Horus fairly outclassed and outranked when it comes to strategy and tactic. However, I do believe that the Lion is the best primarch tactician out of them all, with only Creed being able to match him for tactical understanding.

Horus was the first found, and has had more hands on experience than anyone when it came to conquering a galaxy, taking orders, and learning from the Emperor himself. As a result, I believe no one can contest him in matters of diplomacy, strategy, tactics, or leading galaxy conquering armies across millions of worlds thousands of light years apart. He is ot the best in any of these fields, but if there was a primarch capable of being Warmaster, it would easily be Horus.

Guilliman is a great leader also, he has built up a steady, solid and strong empire. To do so, you would need to have alot of imagination, vitality, brain, reasoning, loyal men, adequately trained men, knowledgeable men, and power. To have all of this is no small feat, in fact, to gain all of this would already make you a great man. And then to take all of this and put it together to build an efficient and self-sustaining empire, as well as go out and conquer the stars speaks volumes when it comes to the Ultramarines primarch. Clearly Guilliman has more than earned his place when it comes to a list of the top leaders of the twenty.

The Lion however is the winner when it comes to fighting wars. It was one of the reasons I chose the Dark Angels as my Astartes. Although there are not many books on the Lion, nor many tales that speak testimony to his genius as a primarch, the few that are out show pretty clear proof that he knows fairly well how to fight wars, and more importantly, how to win them, and win them well, bringing ruin upon his enemies while leaving his force intact, strong, and effective. In fact, the only one to have had a longer list of victories and titles was Lupercal himself, and the one under the Lion for victory counts is Russ.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind that Lupercal is the best general out of them all. Although I do think that Guilliman has Horus fairly outclassed and outranked when it comes to strategy and tactic. However, I do believe that the Lion is the best primarch tactician out of them all, with only Creed being able to match him for tactical understanding.

Horus was the first found, and has had more hands on experience than anyone when it came to conquering a galaxy, taking orders, and learning from the Emperor himself. As a result, I believe no one can contest him in matters of diplomacy, strategy, tactics, or leading galaxy conquering armies across millions of worlds thousands of light years apart. He is ot the best in any of these fields, but if there was a primarch capable of being Warmaster, it would easily be Horus.

Guilliman is a great leader also, he has built up a steady, solid and strong empire. To do so, you would need to have alot of imagination, vitality, brain, reasoning, loyal men, adequately trained men, knowledgeable men, and power. To have all of this is no small feat, in fact, to gain all of this would already make you a great man. And then to take all of this and put it together to build an efficient and self-sustaining empire, as well as go out and conquer the stars speaks volumes when it comes to the Ultramarines primarch. Clearly Guilliman has more than earned his place when it comes to a list of the top leaders of the twenty.

The Lion however is the winner when it comes to fighting wars. It was one of the reasons I chose the Dark Angels as my Astartes. Although there are not many books on the Lion, nor many tales that speak testimony to his genius as a primarch, the few that are out show pretty clear proof that he knows fairly well how to fight wars, and more importantly, how to win them, and win them well, bringing ruin upon his enemies while leaving his force intact, strong, and effective. In fact, the only one to have had a longer list of victories and titles was Lupercal himself, and the one under the Lion for victory counts is Russ.

Give some example, where did Lion shine ?No offence,I see that people rank him high but I would like to know more.....like for example when Alpha legion loses Alpharius and then chase of Um ( thats tactic and mental discipline )

The primarch's, like the astartes, weren't built equal, but in terms of skill. They all had roughly the same amount of skill but its placed in different categories. For the Emperor to create 20 legions and pour all his time into 20 super beings of almost demigod powers, it would be a massive waste to have 2 legions (and so 2 primarchs) employed to do the same thing with one being better at the thing there both trained to do. So it stands for good reason that 2 aren't employed to do the same thing.

On top of this each Primarch was flawed (possibly created by life experiences or engineered by the chaos gods). For example The Lion, while somehow being a great tactician (haven't seen any example of this yet but I'm still looking, beating the night lords doesn't count because the night lords aren't suited to fighting a fearless foe, same problem as fighting Angron in a psychic duel, not a massive feat) he was woefully bad when it came to people skills, the reason he died and his legion got torn in half is primarily to do with this, he wouldn't give credit where credit was defiantly due. and so he spawned unrest in his own legion.

Same for Guilliman, while he had several hundred thousand marines and his own small star empire, Guilliman was massively pompous with a large ego (from what I can gather from some of the books) and so many primarchs and legions (despite what Matt ward is trying to force down our throat) didn't like him, so outside his own empire he commanded little respect amongst the other legions. The biggest example of that is the alpha legion, Giulliman didn't like that the alpha legion did things their own way and so threw their toys out the pram.

With Fulgrim, we all know he was massively vain and arrogant. He was also prone to making rash claims (i.e: the Laer) and then pushing his legion to meet what he said. Though one of the big ones is that by saying how great he was and his legion was, he gave them a massive sense of their own bloated worth and their ego swelled.

Even Horus Lupercal had his flaws. Often it was described as if he could either win a war with minimum casualties and deaths, but a very unheralded victory, or he could win the war with a massive glorious battle but he lost many men and the planet was devastated, he would take the latter option. His casualties were glossed over because he was the emperors favorite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind that Lupercal is the best general out of them all. Although I do think that Guilliman has Horus fairly outclassed and outranked when it comes to strategy and tactic. However, I do believe that the Lion is the best primarch tactician out of them all, with only Creed being able to match him for tactical understanding.

Horus was the first found, and has had more hands on experience than anyone when it came to conquering a galaxy, taking orders, and learning from the Emperor himself. As a result, I believe no one can contest him in matters of diplomacy, strategy, tactics, or leading galaxy conquering armies across millions of worlds thousands of light years apart. He is ot the best in any of these fields, but if there was a primarch capable of being Warmaster, it would easily be Horus.

Guilliman is a great leader also, he has built up a steady, solid and strong empire. To do so, you would need to have alot of imagination, vitality, brain, reasoning, loyal men, adequately trained men, knowledgeable men, and power. To have all of this is no small feat, in fact, to gain all of this would already make you a great man. And then to take all of this and put it together to build an efficient and self-sustaining empire, as well as go out and conquer the stars speaks volumes when it comes to the Ultramarines primarch. Clearly Guilliman has more than earned his place when it comes to a list of the top leaders of the twenty.

The Lion however is the winner when it comes to fighting wars. It was one of the reasons I chose the Dark Angels as my Astartes. Although there are not many books on the Lion, nor many tales that speak testimony to his genius as a primarch, the few that are out show pretty clear proof that he knows fairly well how to fight wars, and more importantly, how to win them, and win them well, bringing ruin upon his enemies while leaving his force intact, strong, and effective. In fact, the only one to have had a longer list of victories and titles was Lupercal himself, and the one under the Lion for victory counts is Russ.

Give some example, where did Lion shine ?No offence,I see that people rank him high but I would like to know more.....like for example when Alpha legion loses Alpharius and then chase of Um ( thats tactic and mental discipline )

I'm in the same camp as you here about lion El'jonson, I remember people saying about him fighting the Night Lords during the heresy, I don't rank it as very brilliant as the Night lords are ill suited to fight space marines in their prime tactic (You cant scare something that is fearless), same thing as will Alpharius win if he and his legion are against Iron warriors, and he's the one inside the fortress? Or, will Angron defeat Magnus in a psychic duel?

Magnus duh he see into the future so he knoews how to deploy his forces accordingly......simple people