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Fulgrim actually was a weak tactician, he formed excellent strategies, but his weakness was that he expected his Marines to be as perfect and bishie as he is, which bit his legion in the ass a few times. Laer being a notable occasion.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Fulgrim actually was a weak tactician, he formed excellent strategies, but his weakness was that he expected his Marines to be as perfect and bishie as he is, which bit his legion in the ass a few times. Laer being a notable occasion.

Laer was Fulgrim's crowning achievement. The Administratum was preparing for a grueling campaign, one that would last years and cost billions and lives, when Fulgrim won in a week with minimal causalities.

Fulgrim's actually the greatest tactician out of all the Primarchs. Surprise.

Wait, did five people seriously vote for Angron as the best tactician? And why would nine people vote for Khan?

As one of the Marines who killed Osama Bin Ladin, as well as the US's top SWAT team specialist and highest rank guerilla warrior, I can state with one hundred percent certainty that motorcycles that go VROOOM VROOOOOOOOOM are the most dangerous weapons in existence. Khan was the only Primarch wise enough to utilize this, easily establishing him as the greatest tactician.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Laer was Fulgrim's crowning achievement. The Administratum was preparing for a grueling campaign, one that would last years and cost billions and lives, when Fulgrim won in a week with minimal causalities.

That Fulgrim is a better strategist or tactician than the Administratum doesn't mean much when compared to Primarchs.

While a victory, it nevertheless demonstrated Fulgrim's flaws as a commander.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
Laer was Fulgrim's crowning achievement. The Administratum was preparing for a grueling campaign, one that would last years and cost billions and lives, when Fulgrim won in a week with minimal causalities.

That Fulgrim is a better strategist or tactician than the Administratum doesn't mean much when compared to Primarchs.

While a victory, it nevertheless demonstrated Fulgrim's flaws as a commander.

He expected his men to act perfectly... and they did because he'd trained them to.

How is that a flaw?

A good portion of his Marines were unable to make it into battle and IIRC some died because they and reality could not live up to his ideal for perfection.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A good portion of his Marines were unable to make it into battle and IIRC some died because they and reality could not live up to his ideal for perfection.

It was established as a victory with minimal capabilities.

Of course some died, that's inevitable. Fulgrim was wiping out an entire goddamn Empire in a week, you can't do that without casualities.

I don't think you understand.

A good portion of Marines were unable to so much as make it to battle because of his overtly-convoluted battle plans (The narrative and even his own Marines realise this).

And I'll be real here: What was Fulgrim's plan, at the end of the day? Flying him and his elites to the front, so he can use his Primarch powah to romp through the Laer.

To be fair, that seems to be the norm for Primarchs. Their strategies are never really as intricate in reality as the implied ability makes you believe (Spearhead, spearhead!).

The weakness of having authors with zero military experience writing Military Sci-Fi.

Gulliman.

I kid, I kid...
Bit biased, but for me, Dorn...

Being led halfway across the galaxy doesn't really speak of tactical genius to me.

Can you really argue who the best tactician is when the majority of battles are described as "X attacks Y, followed by basic manoeuvres and some heroics".

So tacticool guys.

Got to be Gullliman, it says so right there in the fluff!

Horus and Sanguinus et al excelled at politics, dorn and perturabo were good at siegecraft or digging in or what have you, plenty of them were good at direct assaults or stealth or ripping peoples faces off, but Gulliman could do the whole package, politics, assaults, defence, and even the boring but utterly essentially gak like man management and logistics, and all of the different facets of war.

I really liked his portrayal in Know no Fear as well, the way he didn't fly off the deep end and tried to be diplomatic even after the initial devestation of the assault on Calth, half of the primarchs would have just went ape gak at that point (who the hell said Russ?!) but he made absolutely certain what was going down before he told his oppo to take that looped recording of his pleading to Lorgar down.

And then somehow organised that cluster feth back into a win, before toddling off to meet Sanguinius after he got battered on Sigma Prime.

Less charismatic than Sanguinis, less martially skilled than Angron, less sneaky than Corax, but greater than all of them when it comes to doing the whole shebang, and lets have it right, when you are in charge of 100,000 astartes and a load of planets, you need to be good at the whole shebang, from the numerous actions of a war right down to diplomacy, logistics, planning and procedure, nobody comes close when it comes down to the broad skillset required for a fictional ruler/general/soldier/quartermaster/politician.

Guilliman is very good at being on the wrong side of the galaxy during the Horus Heresy.

 MrScience wrote:

Can you really argue who the best tactician is when the majority of battles are described as "X attacks Y, followed by basic manoeuvres and some heroics".

So tacticool guys.

Tactics in real life aren't that intricate. Too complex and the plan falls apart as it requires too many factors to be in your favour.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Wait, did five people seriously vote for Angron as the best tactician?

Yep.

I voted for him because he's obviously the best tactician. Who else had the brilliant idea to dual-wield chainaxes?

I think the whole problem with this thread is that characters like the Lion are said to be the best tactician, but we then see guys like Khan actually using better tactics.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
I just re-red the DA HH novels. It's stated (with a very possible bias) that the Lion is the second best strategist in the Emperor's army, only behind Horus.

Who said that?

The narrator. He mentionned that to a lot of 1st Legions, Lion was the best, but that clearly pointing at some bias inside from each Legion toward their Primarch.

But the claim that Lion is the second best after Horus was made by the narrator.

It's in the beginning of Fallen Angels. And it does state 'strategist', in light of this thread I took extra care to notice. The narrator was describing how the Lion could enter a battlezone and immediatly figure out how to obtain compliance, which alliance to strike or to destroy, etc.

And I rescind what I said earlier in another thread, they did make the Lion to come off as a dick in the second novel. And the author didn't even do a very good job at that.

A&O they always seem to out wit the others by doing the unexpected catching the others out.

Isn't it basically said in the canon that it's Guilliman? I mean I find the guy bland and annoying, but he seems to be the most capable tactically.


And lol@the 5 votes for Angron.

I think its stated that its Horus, Guilliman, and Lion at different points

 Harriticus wrote:
Isn't it basically said in the canon that it's Guilliman? I mean I find the guy bland and annoying, but he seems to be the most capable tactically.


And lol@the 5 votes for Angron.

Horus is better at military tactics than Guilliman. Guilliman (as has been pointed out here a lot) is great on the logistic/civil side of things and is still an exceptional commander.

yea old Gill but he's just too boring though to be likeable and the Lion changes too much from one writer to the next so I'l go with the twins

Horus Heresy- Horus is the best at politics / strategy. Lion is the best tactician. Roboute is good at organizing. It is also stated that Roboute understands war better then anyone. keyword > Understands < . No other primarch seems to get it. See to Fulgrim please. Fulgrim ' I seek perfection in all things, including warfare" - Guilliman " War isn't perfect dude" Fulgrim " OH, WELL DAM! " ... Not even Rogal Dorn understands war it seems. He sends 20, 000 astartes to fight titans..... Hmmmmm jeez Dorn i wonder what that will accomplish? Hell Dorn cant even make a warp jump, and Sanguinius is dead because he cant even work a teleport homer for Christ sakes...

At the end of the day the night lords and world eaters would be the best at bringing worlds into compliance.

At the end of the day the Raven guard and White Scars HAVE the best ideas and ways to destroy a foe, or win a war.

But guys at the end of the day Mathew Ward > Logic.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
Horus Heresy- Horus is the best at politics / strategy. Lion is the best tactician. Roboute is good at organizing. It is also stated that Roboute understands war better then anyone. keyword > Understands < . No other primarch seems to get it. See to Fulgrim please. Fulgrim ' I seek perfection in all things, including warfare" - Guilliman " War isn't perfect dude" Fulgrim " OH, WELL DAM! " ... Not even Rogal Dorn understands war it seems. He sends 20, 000 astartes to fight titans..... Hmmmmm jeez Dorn i wonder what that will accomplish? Hell Dorn cant even make a warp jump, and Sanguinius is dead because he cant even work a teleport homer for Christ sakes...

At the end of the day the night lords and world eaters would be the best at bringing worlds into compliance.

At the end of the day the Raven guard and White Scars HAVE the best ideas and ways to destroy a foe, or win a war.

But guys at the end of the day Mathew Ward > Logic.

So much win.

I would say Alpharius/Omegon not just because they are awsome. But if I cast my memory back I distinctly remember them murking some ultrasmurf butt on Eskrador...

Guillamen wrote a book on tactics(among other things) that has literally lasted ten thousand years.

Perturbo. Who else managed to soundly beat his arch-rival, nearly annihilate his followers, snub Daddy-dearest for his spiteful neglect and make off like a bandit all the while saving his sons from a life of eternal, and fruitless servitude? Not to mention one of the few Legions who (pardon the pun) had the balls of steel to stay behind after the HH to harass the heck out of the Imperium?

Plus he made the Lion, another good candidate in this thread, look like a total tool, manipulating him with the casual ease only a mustache-twirling supertroll like Perturabo can muster.

BaconUprising wrote:
I would say Alpharius/Omegon not just because they are awsome. But if I cast my memory back I distinctly remember them murking some ultrasmurf butt on Eskrador...

And implying they themselves got killed

Why did 55 people find Russ the best tactician?

Sheer force of fanboyism, I'd imagine.

Though it must be said that, while fanboyism is probably the main reason, those truly knowledgable of him could put forth a decent argument. He was not wholly the assmad barbarian he appeared.

I want to know the reasoning behind the sole Lorgar supporter myself.