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BaconUprising wrote: I would say Alpharius/Omegon not just because they are awsome. But if I cast my memory back I distinctly remember them murking some ultrasmurf butt on Eskrador...
And implying they themselves got killed
Why did 55 people find Russ the best tactician?
Because he was one of the top 3 according to WD (Horus,Lion,Russ),and why the hell Magnus has any votes...he attacked undefended fort and lost
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
Because he was one of the top 3 according to WD (Horus,Lion,Russ),and why the hell Magnus has any votes...he attacked undefended fort and lost
This. I don't believe it's just WD, either. Old codices mention this as well. Plus, recent depictions of the SW and Russ are very much in oppositiion to how they used to be portrayed, and I for one don't care for the Wolves' new direction.
All of the strong points mentioned for Girlyman point to him being a great strategist, not a great tactician. The two are definitely markedly different.
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
on topic- IMHO twins are the best - no one even knows their tactis in 40k...except one is dead....
killed by a smurf
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/07 12:42:13
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
I've heard the lion mentioned a lot but tactics is about adapting to the situation as well as just having an extensive playbook (papa smurf) so why do these polls appear every month?
Nurgle Daemons blog
http://nurglestally.blogspot.ie/
Just another pissing contest beetwen Guiliman,Lion and Horus...Real question is why Perturabo isn't ranked high ? Guiliman stole everything from him IIRC...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Guilliman didn't steal everything from Perturabo, but he did respect his thoroughness, and for the siege assault/defense portion of the Codex, he used Perturabo's stratagems (vs. that of Dorn, who by all indications was the biggest chump of them all).
Okay, he didn't stole it - he used it (wink,wink - nod,nod)..but still I' rank him over the Guiliman any day of the week...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Okay, he didn't stole it - he used it (wink,wink - nod,nod)..but still I' rank him over the Guiliman any day of the week...
I think Perturabo and the Iron Warriors are the best tacticians
After reading "Angel Exterminatus" my opinion on him grow sky high - but there is still the "the Crimson fist" novel, which showed that he sucks at space battles
Spoiler:
lowly IF captain is whooping his arse pretty hard
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Perturabo never really got a chance to show what he can do in a battle of maneuvering or open formation (something they always wanted to do but were never given opportunities), and his deepest desire was to be much like Guilliman, in that he would be an administrator more than a general, and design beautiful cities for his populace.
As Fulgrim said it, Perturabo's cities would have all the splendor of Macgragge without any of the starch.
Speaking of Angel Exterminatus, it is interesting to note that now three of the traitor primarchs are shown to be more scholars than warriors (Lorgar chaffed against his duty as a general, Magnus subverted his command for his own purposes, whereas Perturabo was the dutiful son that put away personal desires for duty).
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
on topic- IMHO twins are the best - no one even knows their tactis in 40k...except one is dead....
killed by a smurf
Do note that the only one that actually confirmed that kill is an agent of the Alpha Legion itself. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled and all that.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
on topic- IMHO twins are the best - no one even knows their tactis in 40k...except one is dead....
killed by a smurf
However, it has been noted in the lexicanum that even then, they still don't believe that Alpharius or his twin are dead. Considering that towards the end of things, Alpharius was recruiting men that looked like him and the rest of the legion, and that each acted like alpharius, I find it incredibly likely that Alpharius trained a marine to fight like him in order to fake a death. The fact that the Alpha Legion let everyone speak in a planning session also turns things around, considering that Alpharius trained an entire legion to think as he does, making a single loss into nothing. Just like the Dark Eldar, unless you can produce a body and confirm the identity 100%, then they are not dead.
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
DarthMarko wrote: Just another pissing contest beetwen Guiliman,Lion and Horus...Real question is why Perturabo isn't ranked high ? Guiliman stole everything from him IIRC...
Perturabo is ever the overlooked brother, when he is easily one of the most competent Primarchs. He, almost alone among them, knew that risking his own life in battles against his brothers needlessly was foolish, and nearly killed Dorn without having to physically present himself.
"However, it has been noted in the lexicanum that even then, they still don't believe that Alpharius or his twin are dead. Considering that towards the end of things, Alpharius was recruiting men that looked like him and the rest of the legion, and that each acted like alpharius, I find it incredibly likely that Alpharius trained a marine to fight like him in order to fake a death. The fact that the Alpha Legion let everyone speak in a planning session also turns things around, considering that Alpharius trained an entire legion to think as he does, making a single loss into nothing. Just like the Dark Eldar, unless you can produce a body and confirm the identity 100%, then they are not dead."
I think Omegon went to the loyalist side. In all of the stories he seems very unsure of the path the Alpha legion is on.
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
Haters gonna hate. I, for one , have treouble believing it's only been 55 people. Perhaps most of the SW fans have been too tactically savvy to let others know their real strength?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/07 21:30:15
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
Haters gonna hate. I, for one , have treouble believing it's only been 55 people. Perhaps most of the SW fans have been too tactically savvy to let others know their real strength?
Yep
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/12/07 21:34:45
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Sanguinius, because the Emperor was a greater tactician than any of the primarchs and by Horus' own words Sanguinius was the most like the big E
"Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his.."
I think events show that the Emperor was not so good with the short-term (tactics), because he focused completely on the long-term (strategy). I mean, he conquered Terra by either strolling in glowing like Jesus and having everyone instantly fall to their knees, or unleashing his Thunder Warrior gorillas that just blasted everything to bits with their superior guns, armor and physically. It does not take a tactical genius when any one of your warriors could account for a hundred enemies.
Anyway, all the Primarchs were capable, but mostly their tactics of war were influenced by how they fought on their home planets. That's why Night Lords specialized in terror tactics, and Raven Guard on subterfuge and stealth (ignoring their newly introduced ninja powers from Angel Exterminatus). This somewhat invalidates guys like Russ or Khan from consideration, because their tactics stem from the small raiding party engagements of their homeworld.
So we have to look at the guys who commanded more traditional armies, which points to guys like Guilliman, the Lion, or perhaps Perturabo (Horus should probably be here too, but I just realized I know nothing about his home planet except its name... We're always just told he was the first to be found and the favored son of the Emperor).
Since the Lion is portrayed as basically a computer with legs, Perturabo is never given an opportunity to show his talents in non-siege engagements, and Guilliman's Legion is described as having the most successes with the fewest casualties, this has to go to the boy in blue. Plus there's that whole book of tactical doctrine that's endured for ten millennia. Then again, considering that in Guilliman's own simulations, the Sons of Horus rocked the Ultramarines' socks off, perhaps the title belongs to Horus after all.
As for Horus lamenting that Sanguinius wasn't chosen to be Warmaster, he wasn't so much commenting on capability (since he certainly saw himself as extremely capable), but rather the strength of character and raw charisma of Sanguinius. Many of Horus' brothers resented his appointment, no one would have likely questioned Sanguinius.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/08 14:42:55
Sanguinius - one of the top tier fighters and a noble saint with a dark side - yes
best tactician - NO...I'll stop before fanboys start to bite...
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
He beat up Fulgrim and An'ggrath, was beaten in a telepathic duel with Magnus (But Magnus noted his psychic growth), and generally acted like an internet tough guy.
He beat up Fulgrim and An'ggrath, was beaten in a telepathic duel with Magnus (But Magnus noted his psychic growth), and generally acted like an internet tough guy.
Tactically, he did nothing.
1. Lorgar wasn't beaten by Magnus in any duel
2. He sucker attacked deamon Fulgrim ,real Fulgrim would rape his arse any day of the week
3. Be precise,and put your adoration to Magnus aside
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/08 20:15:53
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
I dont understand how you can say psychically commanding Horus, beating another Primarch into submission and defeating one of the greatest daemons ever is "nothing"
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also he's pretty much the sole reason for chaos entering the imperium and is technically the orchestrator of the Horus heresy...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/08 21:01:41
Hammering Ultramarines....hard...maybe that is good tactic, although it was a suprise attack...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/08 21:23:14
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
He beat up Fulgrim and An'ggrath, was beaten in a telepathic duel with Magnus (But Magnus noted his psychic growth), and generally acted like an internet tough guy.
Tactically, he did nothing.
1. Lorgar wasn't beaten by Magnus in any duel
2. He sucker attacked deamon Fulgrim ,real Fulgrim would rape his arse any day of the week
3. Be precise,and put your adoration to Magnus aside
Well, he was doing a lot of psychic shouting, but when Magnus had enough of it, he put a stop to it in short order. You're right, any genuine psychic contest between the two would not be a duel, but a massacre.
Agreed on Fulgrim. While the daemon was in charge, Lorgar had an advantage. When Fulgrim took back control, I doubt Lorgar would have such success, even with a sneak attack.
What I was just about to post, he just started to discover pp and already senses Fulgrim as a deamon (which even Magnus didn't) - who knows how much he will grow in time...
And what fascinated me, is how much he trashed Magnus with his rhetoric it amost seemed that he is one and only chaos chosen
Spoiler:
Emperor, commanding the second-largest Legion in the Imperium. You are a broken soul, leading a shattered Legion. Perhaps I was never the one that needed protection, nor did my arrogance lead to my downfall. You cannot claim the same, Magnus. We both knew the truth, but only one of us faced it.’
And such a truth. Bitter amusement lapped at Lorgar’s senses. The galaxy is a foul place. We are only making it fouler. Have you considered that it might be better to die in ignorance than to live with the truth?
Lorgar repelled his brother’s creeping emotions with a burst of irritation. The spectre shimmered again, almost dissolving into the air.
+ Have you considered it, Magnus? If so, why do you yet live? Why did you not surrender to the howling death that came for you, when Russ broke your spine over his knee? +
Magnus’s ghost-image laughed, but it was a forced sound, barely reaching Lorgar’s mind. Is this what we have come to? Is this the bitterness you have hidden from all of us for half a century? What did you see at the end of your Pilgrimage, my brother? What did you see when you stared into the abyss?
+ You know what I saw. I saw the warp, and what swims within its tides. + He hesitated a moment, feeling his fingers curl, forming fists in his rising rage. + You are a coward, to know of the Primordial Truth yet fail to embrace it. Chaos Incarnate is only grotesque because we see it with mortal eyes. When we ascend, we will be the chosen children of the gods.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/08 21:32:10
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
Hive Fleet Grootslang 
