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Garvy wrote: 1. Lorgar wasn't beaten by Magnus in any duel
2. He sucker attacked deamon Fulgrim ,real Fulgrim would rape his arse any day of the week
3. Be precise,and put your adoration to Magnus aside
People should really stop trying to argue with me concerning the fluff. After being trashed so many times, you'd think they would learn...
1. Yes he was. Lorgar was able to repel Magnus's probes into his mind when he was being gentle, subtle, but the very moment Magnus was tired of Lorgar's internet tough guy act, he psychically dominated Lorgar, leaving Lorgar on the floor with blood oozing from his nose. Oh, and he also shattered some statures and incinerated nearby paintings. Oh, and he did this while projecting a psychic avatar which Magnus specifically noted took a good deal of energy to maintain from such a distance (The other side of the galaxy).
2. Daemon Fulgrim is stronger than normal Fulgrim, and I frankly can't see why anyone would think otherwise. It wasn't Fulgrim's power that won that duel with Ferrus Manus on Istvaan V, Primarch Fulgrim was about to be overpowered and died. He had to use the daemon's power to survive. So no.
3. You're inferior to me.
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BaconUprising wrote: I dont understand how you can say psychically commanding Horus, beating another Primarch into submission and defeating one of the greatest daemons ever is "nothing"
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also he's pretty much the sole reason for chaos entering the imperium and is technically the orchestrator of the Horus heresy...
So I don't think you seem to know what tactics are.
Psychic and martial power isn't a measure of tactical competence, nor are political machinations.
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Garvy wrote: Hammering Ultramarines....hard...maybe that is good tactic, although it was a suprise attack...
Kor Phaeron planned the attack at Calth, not Lorgar.
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Garvy wrote: What I was just about to post, he just started to discover pp and already senses Fulgrim as a deamon (which even Magnus didn't) - who knows how much he will grow in time...
And what fascinated me, is how much he trashed Magnus with his rhetoric it amost seemed that he is one and only chaos chosen
Spoiler:
Emperor, commanding the second-largest Legion in the Imperium. You are a broken soul, leading a shattered Legion. Perhaps I was never the one that needed protection, nor did my arrogance lead to my downfall. You cannot claim the same, Magnus. We both knew the truth, but only one of us faced it.’
And such a truth. Bitter amusement lapped at Lorgar’s senses. The galaxy is a foul place. We are only making it fouler. Have you considered that it might be better to die in ignorance than to live with the truth?
Lorgar repelled his brother’s creeping emotions with a burst of irritation. The spectre shimmered again, almost dissolving into the air.
+ Have you considered it, Magnus? If so, why do you yet live? Why did you not surrender to the howling death that came for you, when Russ broke your spine over his knee? +
Magnus’s ghost-image laughed, but it was a forced sound, barely reaching Lorgar’s mind. Is this what we have come to? Is this the bitterness you have hidden from all of us for half a century? What did you see at the end of your Pilgrimage, my brother? What did you see when you stared into the abyss?
+ You know what I saw. I saw the warp, and what swims within its tides. + He hesitated a moment, feeling his fingers curl, forming fists in his rising rage. + You are a coward, to know of the Primordial Truth yet fail to embrace it. Chaos Incarnate is only grotesque because we see it with mortal eyes. When we ascend, we will be the chosen children of the gods.
Lorgar knew that Magnus could sense the Daemon in Fulgrim, and when pressed, Magnus admitted he could feel it just as Lorgar did.
Which makes sense. Lorgar's issue with Magnus is that he knows the Primordial Truth, yet does not embrace it, as that excerpt you posted shows.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/08 23:45:58
Tacticle competence is not solely measured by the ability to control an army, tactics can be manipulating other individuals which Lorgar did to half of his brothers and psychicly. I would ultimately agree that another Primarch such as Gulliame is properly a more competent tactician but dont rule lorgar out because he's not a the best in conflict.
@Magnus ,Void Dragon - You are soooo delusional, my God how old are you? 15 ? People were kind enough to warn me about you, but I didn't expect this...please don't comment my posts anymore...ty
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/09 00:07:31
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
BaconUprising wrote: I dont understand how you can say psychically commanding Horus, beating another Primarch into submission and defeating one of the greatest daemons ever is "nothing"
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also he's pretty much the sole reason for chaos entering the imperium and is technically the orchestrator of the Horus heresy...
So I don't think you seem to know what tactics are.
Psychic and martial power isn't a measure of tactical competence, nor are political machinations.
What are you on about!? All of those are forms of tactical competence, they are off course not all of them but they all showcase his talents that's my point. Your view of being tactical is obviously very narrow minded...
Automatically Appended Next Post: "your inferior to me" I'm afraid that is quite pathetic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lastly I agree (if it will please you) that Lorgar would be slapped around by Magnus during the Heresy in combat but to answer the actual question Lorgarbis a far better tactician.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/09 00:17:58
2. Daemon Fulgrim is stronger than normal Fulgrim, and I frankly can't see why anyone would think otherwise. It wasn't Fulgrim's power that won that duel with Ferrus Manus on Istvaan V, Primarch Fulgrim was about to be overpowered and died. He had to use the daemon's power to survive. So no.
We're often on the same page, but I have to strongly disagree here. Daemon Fulgrim is a pale shadow of the real thing (especially when comes to being villainous...have you read Angel Exterminatus? That guy embrases Chaos more readily than Lorgar!). Fulgrim won both fights against his brother, what the daemon sword did was give him that extra push to deal the killing blow. With Lorgar now being the Chaos ambassador or whatever, he would have additional influence over a daemon.
My personal theory is that Lorgar's (and several of the dark Apostles') mental domination of others, although psychic in nature, isn't exactly traditional telepathy, but rather more like the Voice of the Bene Gesserit. That's what makes them such effective demagogues and demonancers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/09 00:37:32
Omegus wrote: Uh, Magnus knew Fulgrim was a demon, that's the first thing they discuss.
Yep, you are right, my bad, sorry -
Spoiler:
Magnus fell silent for some time. The only sound in the room was the scritch-scratch of Lorgar’s quill-tip, and the omnipresent bass murmur of the generators on the enginarium decks.
Fulgrim is dead.
‘So it seems.’ Lorgar stopped writing long enough to look up. ‘How long have you known?’
Magnus moved to the wall, reaching out as if his ethereal fingers could touch the paintings of Colchis hanging there.
I knew it as soon as I reached into Horus’s war room. He withdrew his fingers, curling them back with slow care. Like you, I am no stranger to the entities within the warp. One of them animates his body now.
+ Entities? Name them as they are, brother. Daemons. +
Magnus’s image wavered again, almost discorporated in the winds of Lorgar’s silent voice.
It's in the 3rd chapter - I' completely forgot...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/09 00:30:41
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
BaconUprising wrote:Tacticle competence is not solely measured by the ability to control an army, tactics can be manipulating other individuals which Lorgar did to half of his brothers and psychicly. I would ultimately agree that another Primarch such as Gulliame is properly a more competent tactician but dont rule lorgar out because he's not a the best in conflict.
Lorgar manipulated nothing. The initial framework of the heresy was constructed by Erebus, and to a lesser extent, Kor Phaeron, while Lorgar was off searching for his answers. Horus made his own decision to turn, as did Fulgrim. Angron was already crazy and didn't need much of a push. Perturabo turned out of guilt and shame. Magnus dropped the ball on his own. Mortarion was set-up by Typhus.
The battle of Calth is not a commendation of the Word Bearers' tactical acumen, considering they still lost despite having a ridiculous advantage and killing 100,000 Ultramarines in the initial sneak attack. The overarching goal of that whole enterprise was to summon warp storms anyway.
Garvy wrote:@Magnus ,Void Dragon - You are soooo delusional, my God how old are you? 15 ? People were kind enough to warn me about you, but I didn't expect this...please don't comment my posts anymore...ty
Pot calling the kettle black? The discussion seems pretty friendly to me so far, no need for hostility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/09 00:36:08
Wow did you really say that Void__Dragon? I don’t really know if there is some friendly banter between the two of you or not. If not, then this comment only serves to show how stupid these pissing competitions between the primarchs are. We are just going to accept, that the most lauded primarchs (for whatever reasons) are Horus, followed closely by Gulliman, Dorn and Lion.
I call out to the moderators to put an end to this thread. It serves no other purpose than causing more trouble and spite. Please let us put an end to this…
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/09 00:52:00
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Maby I phrased that wrong but in a way lorgar did orchestrate the whole heresy without lorgars permission Erebus wouldn't have been able to influence Horus meaning no HH. If lorgar had chosen he could have had Erebus executed for heresy. It doesn't function without lorgar.
Omegus wrote: Giving someone the ok to do something, doesn't give you credit for what they do. Ordering a steak at a restaurant doesn't make you a chef.
And Dorn? Tactically sound? Most laughable comment in this whole thread.
Hmmm,but check this quote from the Horus risng :
Spoiler:
Rogal Dorn possessed perhaps the finest military mind of all the primarchs. It was as ordered and disciplined as Roboute Guilliman’s, as courageous as the Lion’s, yet still supple enough to allow for the flash of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won the likes of Leman Russ and the Khan so many victory wreaths. Dorn’s record in the crusade was second only to Horus’s, but he was resolute where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic, and that was why Horus had been the obvious choice for Warmaster. In keeping with his patient, stony character, Dorn’s Legion had become renowned for siegecraft and defensive strategies. The Warmaster had once joked that where he could storm a fortress like no other, Rogal Dorn could hold it. ‘If I ever laid assault to a bastion possessed by you,’ Horus had quipped at a recent banquet, ‘then the war would last for all eternity, the best in attack matched by the best in defence.’ The Imperial Fists were an immovable object to the Luna Wolves’ unstoppable force.
I' m not so sure about him - but in "the Crimson fists" I was amazed how lowly IF was whooping Perturabo in space battle...but then I've read "Angel exterminatus" which raised my opinion on Perturabo sky high....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/09 01:08:33
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
See spending half the crusade hanging out on Terra. See Siege of Terra. See Iron Cage incident. See last remembrancer. See Sword of Sacriledge. Dorm was full of fail.
Omegus wrote: See spending half the crusade hanging out on Terra. See Siege of Terra. See Iron Cage incident. See last remembrancer. See Sword of Sacriledge. Dorm was full of fail.
Well with him, I' don't know...there are like 100 versions of his emo stuff...so I will stay impartial + him after heresy...don't wanna comment because I'm still puzzeled....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/09 01:23:15
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
I'm just afraid, that Sanguinius is on a good path in becoming a ultimate Mary Sue...
They should be very careful when battle for Terra will be played ( who will write him )...
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
BaconUprising wrote: Tacticle competence is not solely measured by the ability to control an army, tactics can be manipulating other individuals which Lorgar did to half of his brothers and psychicly. I would ultimately agree that another Primarch such as Gulliame is properly a more competent tactician but dont rule lorgar out because he's not a the best in conflict.
See, I have to disagree here. Tactics are solely measured by the ability to control an army. Compare... Hitler. Hitler was an excellent politician, he could sway others to his side with his speeches, he was competent at that. But as a commander of armies, he fell short.
Now, I don't think Lorgar is a particularly bad tactician, like, say, Angron seems to be. And after Monarchia, he proved he can indeed be competent when given direction. I could also see him being placed above Magnus as a tactician, who designed his army in such a way that it could largely act autonomously of his direct orders (The telepaths and diviners doing the actual directing). But put up with guys like Guilliman, Horus, the Lion, Perturabo, Russ, etc? Nawh.
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Garvy wrote: @Magnus ,Void Dragon - You are soooo delusional, my God how old are you? 15 ? People were kind enough to warn me about you, but I didn't expect this...please don't comment my posts anymore...ty
21 actually.
Lol. Warned you of me? Who? As if I am some dreaded figure in DakkaDakka history, whose very appearance in a thread means surrender? Maybe I should change my avatar to Konrad Curze then...
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Redcruisair wrote: Wow did you really say that Void__Dragon? I don’t really know if there is some friendly banter between the two of you or not. If not, then this comment only serves to show how stupid these pissing competitions between the primarchs are. We are just going to accept, that the most lauded primarchs (for whatever reasons) are Horus, followed closely by Gulliman, Dorn and Lion.
I call out to the moderators to put an end to this thread. It serves no other purpose than causing more trouble and spite. Please let us put an end to this…
Garvy has, very recently, waltzed into threads with little purpose but to insult me and insuate bias on my part, when, naturally, all I state is entirely, irrevocably, true. Like how he just did so concerning Magnus, in response to me pointing out that Magnus did, in fact, telepathically best Lorgar.
I hold no illusions that what I did was right, nor will I strive to claim some moral superiority over Garvy.
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Omegus wrote: Yes, BL is very inconsistent with their characterizations. Look at the Lion, for example.
Oh yeah, the impression I got from the DA novels set in the HH implied to me that, if anything, the Lion was a sociopath. ADB apparently went a different way.
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Omegus wrote: We're often on the same page, but I have to strongly disagree here. Daemon Fulgrim is a pale shadow of the real thing (especially when comes to being villainous...have you read Angel Exterminatus? That guy embrases Chaos more readily than Lorgar!). Fulgrim won both fights against his brother, what the daemon sword did was give him that extra push to deal the killing blow. With Lorgar now being the Chaos ambassador or whatever, he would have additional influence over a daemon.
My personal theory is that Lorgar's (and several of the dark Apostles') mental domination of others, although psychic in nature, isn't exactly traditional telepathy, but rather more like the Voice of the Bene Gesserit. That's what makes them such effective demagogues and demonancers.
I haven't read Angel Exterminatus, actually, nor have I read The Mirror Crack'd, which could make me mistaken in my assumption.
I can't agree that Lorgar won the fight against Ferrus Manus, the second time. Fulgrim was moment's away from dying when he gave into the Daemon's power to defeat his brother.
Well, Lorgar is at the very least still a supremely powerful telepath in the traditional sense as well. He was able to compel Horus to obey him.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/12/09 01:55:36
Its funny to see how this poll asked who do people think is the best Tactician but a huge chunck of the replies are "Who my favorite is." ANYONE who says Leman Russ, Alpharius, Corax, Khan, Angron, or Night Lord fit in this category lol
Omegus wrote: See spending half the crusade hanging out on Terra. See Siege of Terra. See Iron Cage incident. See last remembrancer. See Sword of Sacriledge. Dorm was full of fail.
'half crusade hanging around terra' Okay thats a point IN Dorn's favor. The Emperor wanted the best to build his Palace and wanted an elite force to serve as his Vanguard and he picked the Imperial Fist.
'Siege of Terra' Another point in his favor as he leads the defense of the Imperial Palce against the Warmaster Horus, already believed to be one of the greatest leaders of the Imperium along with his Chaos allies. He did a damn fine job here holding out against a superior force long enough for reforcements to arrive.
'Iron Cage incident isnt a great example. On one hand he charged in like an idiot trying to get revenge. On the other hand he was able to organize a defensive stance that saved his legion from being destroyed when they should have been wipped out in one get go. This actually shows good tactics, poor strategy.
'Last Remembrancer' I dont see a huge problem here but this does put Dorn in a bad light. This is the first one Ill say goes completely against Dorn
'Sword of Sacriledge' Dorn sacifices his life to stop this Chaos Battleship and help save Cadia? This is NOT a negative for him.
Dorn is one of the Primarchs with a GOOD history actually. I understand you may not care for him but that doesnt mean he is actually a bad leader as it does turn out he is one of the better Primarchs. (Note he is not even close to be the best tactician of the group but that doesnt mean he is bad)
I see now what you are trying to tell me Void__Dragon and I’m very sorry if my previous post painted you as some nefarious troublemaker. Such was not my intent at all.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Hehe mental illness regarding the Primarches could be a hilarious discussion. With Horus and Guilliman suffering from delusions of grandeur. Dorn from battle-fatigue. Lorgar has serious daddy-issues. Russ suffer from lapses of judgement due to alcohol, Magnus from being a Cyclops and not throwing rocks at people like Russ expected, and the Emperor with his favoritism basically laid the groundwork for the Horus Heresy.
And that's just the Primarches I bother to name of the top of the hat.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Okay then. I'm not quite sure HOW people get so worked up about the fictional universe for our toy soldier hobby, but it's clear that some of you have had about enough of this thread. Next rude comment earns the poster a vacation.
BaconUprising wrote: Can we please lock this thread or end it, it's devolving into a pointless argument
Yes...please...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2. Daemon Fulgrim is stronger than normal Fulgrim, and I frankly can't see why anyone would think otherwise. It wasn't Fulgrim's power that won that duel with Ferrus Manus on Istvaan V, Primarch Fulgrim was about to be overpowered and died. He had to use the daemon's power to survive. So no.
We're often on the same page, but I have to strongly disagree here. Daemon Fulgrim is a pale shadow of the real thing (especially when comes to being villainous...have you read Angel Exterminatus? That guy embrases Chaos more readily than Lorgar!). Fulgrim won both fights against his brother, what the daemon sword did was give him that extra push to deal the killing blow.
If I remember rightly, hadn't Fulgrim technically lost their second duel until he used the daemon sword to block Manus' attack? I'm not saying that he couldn't have done exactly the same thing with another sword, but it did more than just make his intended warning shot into a killing blow. I don't think that the daemon is necessarilly stonger or weaker than Fulgrim either, just less refined. Lucius noted that Fulgrim's swordplay had suffered since Isstvan (though how much of that was just Fulgrim trolling them is unclear), so they could be of comparable strength, with Lorgar gaining an advantage simply because, as you say, he likely has influence over daemonic entities.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
2. Daemon Fulgrim is stronger than normal Fulgrim, and I frankly can't see why anyone would think otherwise. It wasn't Fulgrim's power that won that duel with Ferrus Manus on Istvaan V, Primarch Fulgrim was about to be overpowered and died. He had to use the daemon's power to survive. So no.
We're often on the same page, but I have to strongly disagree here. Daemon Fulgrim is a pale shadow of the real thing (especially when comes to being villainous...have you read Angel Exterminatus? That guy embrases Chaos more readily than Lorgar!). Fulgrim won both fights against his brother, what the daemon sword did was give him that extra push to deal the killing blow.
If I remember rightly, hadn't Fulgrim technically lost their second duel until he used the daemon sword to block Manus' attack? I'm not saying that he couldn't have done exactly the same thing with another sword, but it did more than just make his intended warning shot into a killing blow. I don't think that the daemon is necessarilly stonger or weaker than Fulgrim either, just less refined. Lucius noted that Fulgrim's swordplay had suffered since Isstvan (though how much of that was just Fulgrim trolling them is unclear), so they could be of comparable strength, with Lorgar gaining an advantage simply because, as you say, he likely has influence over daemonic entities.
Fulgrim was described as a "empty husk" during his possesion + when somebody attacks you when you're sitting on a bar stool, doesn't seem like a duel...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Excuse me, but I was of the impression that Ferrus had beaten Fulgrim so badly that only him allowing the demon to possess him was the reason for Fulgrim to beat Ferrus, and also for them (the Iron Hands) to regard the flesh as weak in turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/12 22:27:36
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
