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Let us look at the statline of Skulltaker:

It is better than a basic Herald's. We'll assume a 60 pt base for the statline alone. Juggernaught options are equal, so we shall disregard those.

So, Presence of Adamantium Will? 10 pts by all accounts.
Axe of Khorne? 10 pt lesser gift.
3+ armor save? 20 pt minor gift

Skulltaker has surety in having the 3+ save in the first place.
So...what does Skulltaker have over the Herald?
Eternal Warrior for one, so no need to worry about any random git instant gibbing him, which makes the Juggernaught option all the more viable.

What you get with Skulltaker is surety and a far improved statline. With a basic Herald, you have versatility and the ability to build a character almost the equal of Khorne's Sacred Executioner. Advantage goes to Skulltaker if you want him to live. Advantage to Herald if you want to deal with Terminators...But I have a solution for that: Squad Champion!

Seriously, the squad champ is a beast. 2 Lesser gifts, 2 weapons, and he's now got 4 S6 (on charge) AP2 attacks. Beastly!

All that and EW on a 2 wound model is what you'd be willing to pay for? Okay, we're gonna have to agree to disagree.

skarsol wrote:
All that and EW on a 2 wound model is what you'd be willing to pay for? Okay, we're gonna have to agree to disagree.

I ran Skulltaker from day 1 with the current book. He is no longer the awesome sauce he was, but I will still bring him out once in a while as a speartip character for my Mono Khorne aspects.

I'm disappointed he can't go 1-1 with Draigo any longer...THAT was a hilarious thing to see, him taking on the best thing since sliced cheese and having them both bouncing off 2++s.

 Janthkin wrote:

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Daemon Prince w, Black Mace + 3 Heldrakes + 2 min-sized Cultist squads allied in with the supposed optimal build Bloodthirster at 280, and assuming another Daemon Prince at that price with a full squad of Screamers and Horrors.....

I would expect the "Daemon princes as Heavy Support" to have a similar limitation to CSM's "Noise Marines as Troops," i.e., it only works in the Primary Detachment.

I'd love to be wrong, though.

"Daemon Princes from this codex"

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Does seem odd that Skulltaker would be a Herald yet the Masque isn't.

The masque isn't in good standing with her god. She's cursed and other deamonetes won't follow her. Likewise the blue scribes just squabble with each other and cannot lead pink horrors or other deamons.

Going to take another random guess that they are intended to be a non hq hq like honor guard or IG priests

Qui-Gon Jinn wrote:
Seriously, the squad champ is a beast. 2 Lesser gifts, 2 weapons, and he's now got 4 S6 (on charge) AP2 attacks. Beastly!

Gift weapons are Specialist, Hellblades are not. You need 30 points in gifts to get 2 weapons for the +1A.

skarsol wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Daemon Prince w, Black Mace + 3 Heldrakes + 2 min-sized Cultist squads allied in with the supposed optimal build Bloodthirster at 280, and assuming another Daemon Prince at that price with a full squad of Screamers and Horrors.....

I would expect the "Daemon princes as Heavy Support" to have a similar limitation to CSM's "Noise Marines as Troops," i.e., it only works in the Primary Detachment.

I'd love to be wrong, though.

"Daemon Princes from this codex"

Right....?

He's suggesting a CSM army: DP-led (Black Mace), cultists, 3 Heldrakes. Then a Daemons allied detachment: Bloodthirster, Screamers, Horrors, and another Daemon Prince. That second Prince is either a Daemons HQ or Heavy Support, depending on if you can use the "take DP's as Heavy Support" option when it's not your primary detachment.

Skulltaker weapon AP3.

Random Herald Minor Weapon, Ap2...

It as a lot of weight in the balance, really.

And the stat boosts are really only pretty on paper.

WS9?, once you are at 6 you hit nearly everything on 3's anyway, and there is only a few things with WS higher then 6(outside Special Chars, GD's and DP's)

BS9, don't care

Initiative 9?, apart for the Deamons in this dex, the only model who have a Init of 7, is Drazhar Master of the Blades(and maybe Alpha Stealers...)

The two really nice is the +1 A and the inbuilt 3+ save.

Personnaly i think the only way Skulltaker would have been fixed is if He whas the one that had the Warlord trait ID's in CC, instead of Skarbrand, who allready can do this with Smash...+ always wounding on 2+.

So EW is really the only thing that keeps me from grabing my Skulltaker model and throw it through the window...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
WS9?, once you are at 6 you hit nearly everything on 3's anyway, and there is only a few things with WS higher then 6(outside Special Chars, GD's and DP's)

WS9 is the difference between a WS4 model hitting you on a 4+ or a 5+. There are just a few WS4 models in the game....

 Janthkin wrote:
Right....?

He's suggesting a CSM army: DP-led (Black Mace), cultists, 3 Heldrakes. Then a Daemons allied detachment: Bloodthirster, Screamers, Horrors, and another Daemon Prince. That second Prince is either a Daemons HQ or Heavy Support, depending on if you can use the "take DP's as Heavy Support" option when it's not your primary detachment.

Ah, I misunderstood. The callout works regardless of if it's your primary army. "If your army includes...", nothing about allied/primary/detachment.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Does seem odd that Skulltaker would be a Herald yet the Masque isn't.

The masque isn't in good standing with her god. She's cursed and other deamonetes won't follow her. Likewise the blue scribes just squabble with each other and cannot lead pink horrors or other deamons.

Going to take another random guess that they are intended to be a non hq hq like honor guard or IG priests

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Die Maske des Slaanesh, HQ section, now not sure if it automatically means that she is an Herald, but even if she is cursed by Slaanesh, she is still an Herald, just like Skarbrand who's Exiled, but is still a GD of Khorne.

RAW the Masque is an HQ that consumes a full HQ slot, unless and until FAQ'd.

I wonder if the Herald of Slaanesh +5 ini thing is applied before or after assaulting through cover penalties. The reason I'm thinking it does is as such:

+5 is such strange number to increase initiative by when all the units that can be affected by it are at least i6 (11 initiative, yeah! Take that, space elves!), if not more. Why not just make it a flat 10? But then I got my math hat on. When a, let's say, Daemonette assaults through cover, she is smacked down to i1 (obviously afraid of stubbing her claw on a fallen branch). Normally this would be the end of it (and the Daemonette, as it happens), but, assuming the +5 is applied after the penalty, we have this little coincidence: a Daemonette with i6 (1+5=6, for all you mathhammer people out there). Now I could be mistaken, but that is the base initiative of your average Slaanesh Daemon.

Tell me if I'm stretching here. This sounds a bit conspiracy theoryish, even to me, but I really want my Slaanesh daemons to be viable :(


EDIT: Upon closer inspection, Daemonettes have i5 base. All is well in the world of math. Disregard the above ravings.

"all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers" - BRB 22

Seelenzermalmer!

skarsol wrote:
"all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers" - BRB 22

Don't crush my dreams with your documentation!

skarsol wrote:
"all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers" - BRB 22

The trick is to get fiends close so the targets are also attacking at Initiative 1.

Or take the Khorne cannon.

I'm really shocked that bloodcrushers only seem to have a 6+ armour save now, instead of the 3+ they had
Lots of changes in the list, some good, some bad

 Requiem wrote:
I'm really shocked that bloodcrushers only seem to have a 6+ armour save now, instead of the 3+ they had
Lots of changes in the list, some good, some bad

6+ saves are weird in general when everything is a Daemon with a 5++ to start with.

How does that even make any sense?

Are there times when a 6+ save are available when a 5++ fails to be used?

Only if the invulnerable save was removed somehow (Shieldbreaker from VIndicare for instance, but that only works on wargear, not special rules).

So many models with high T :( Great Unclean One with T7, hrmpf.

 Shandara wrote:
Only if the invulnerable save was removed somehow (Shieldbreaker from VIndicare for instance, but that only works on wargear, not special rules).

Perhaps there will be future rules that will eliminate 5++ saves, leaving Daemons with 6+ the ones laughing at their naked kin....

 Sigvatr wrote:
So many models with high T :( Great Unclean One with T7, hrmpf.

Don't feel too bad, nearly everything else can be breezed through with S6 Autocannons and S8 Missiles.

Yea, it really looks like daemons have been turned into a true hoard army.

Lots and lots of monsters to mash up.

Those results target every enemy unit (regardless if they have the Daemon USR or not) and every friendly unit with the certain 'Daemon Of' rule.

Reading the daemon special rules, it appears that CSM units cannot be joined by daemons.
"Daemons can only join units that are comprised entirely of Daemons of the same alignment as themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)

Since CSM are not daemons, they are boned. The only battle brothers that cannot join each other's units.
This makes me a sad panda.

It doesn't say that non-daemons can't though.

You could then have a CSM character join a daemon unit.

 Shandara wrote:
It doesn't say that non-daemons can't though.

You could then have a CSM character join a daemon unit.

The Daemonic Instability rules, discussed earlier in the thread, seem to close that option off.

Yes, the way it works out is that CSM units and Daemon units cannot join each other.
Their less of battle brothers, and more of battle acquaintances.
They can cast powers on each other, and see each other at parties.
But don't really like hanging out that close. If a CSM lord invites a herald over for some beers, the herald will find that its busy that weekend.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yes, the way it works out is that CSM units and Daemon units cannot join each other.
Their less of battle brothers, and more of battle acquaintances.
They can cast powers on each other, and see each other at parties.
But don't really like hanging out that close. If a CSM lord invites a herald over for some beers, the herald will find that its busy that weekend.

Thank you for making this analogy. I was going to start making "back of the bus/separate water fountain" analogies, but you saved me from having to go there.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yes, the way it works out is that CSM units and Daemon units cannot join each other.
Their less of battle brothers, and more of battle acquaintances.
They can cast powers on each other, and see each other at parties.
But don't really like hanging out that close. If a CSM lord invites a herald over for some beers, the herald will find that its busy that weekend.

Thank you for making this analogy. I was going to start making "back of the bus/separate water fountain" analogies, but you saved me from having to go there.

...and yet somehow, you still had to...